56 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Savage Wolf, on 07 August 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

I don't usually need that many matches to get 6300 IP but I also usually play a few matches a day and so get the first win of the day bonus more often. Also, once I got that champ, I can use it with any configuration. That expensive mech is just one configuration so if I want three configurations, then triple the grind.

Want that rune in LOL, yeah you need to grind, but then you can use it for all the champs you have at the same time. Want two mechs to have the same module in MWO? Double that grind.

However, much like those runes. You can just slap that module onto the mech you are currently using. CW is the only place where module complaints are valid. Solo queue should have no real complaints about the grind for multiple modules, since you're only using one mech at a time.

Don't get me wrong. I personally think that 3 million C-Bills for the weapon modules we have is preposterous, and the rewards need to be increased, I'm just showing that the grind is not as horrible as people make it out to be. It certainly needs to be toned down a bit.

I am hoping Paul will do something about it soon ™

Strikeshadow, on 07 August 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

85? I earn about 100ip per match and about 250 once daily so that's much less than 85 matches.

"about 100 ip" is 85. You're not earning 100 every single match. Nor are you earning 140K every single drop. This is averaged. I also have a LOT of matches where I am clocking in at 180K+, but I'm listing at 140K here. I have a friend who's average C-Bill income per match is 220K. Certainly not what's normal. He does still get 40K games every now and then too. But averages at 220K at the end of it.

[Savage Wolf]

IraqiWalker, on 07 August 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

However, much like those runes. You can just slap that module onto the mech you are currently using. CW is the only place where module complaints are valid. Solo queue should have no real complaints about the grind for multiple modules, since you're only using one mech at a time.

Don't get me wrong. I personally think that 3 million C-Bills for the weapon modules we have is preposterous, and the rewards need to be increased, I'm just showing that the grind is not as horrible as people make it out to be. It certainly needs to be toned down a bit.

I am hoping Paul will do something about it soon ™

Well, granted if I don't mind having to spend 5-10 minutes of work in the mechlab every time I want to drop in a new mech then I guess I could use the same equipment on multiple mechs. Except if it is locked in a match (In which case you could say you are using more than one), then I need to wait even further.
But in LOL I don't have to do any of those shenanigans to avoid buying multiple modules. I can just play the actual game. I really can't see how it can be defended that LOL's system is simply just better for us players. If I want the level of ease of LOL in MWO there is no way around grinding.

And lets not even mention that Summoner Spells in LOL are totally free to use, while consumables in MWO once again increase the grind.

[Strikeshadow]

Flying Fox 333, on 07 August 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

Sorry for going off on a tangent here. Saved mech loadouts would be a wonderful thing to have and I agree that from a business perspective there isn't an incentive to implement this.

I have always felt that Trial mechs on the other hand should have a loadout & variant selection since you can't change those mechs. It would help newer players by giving them more options.

The thing is that from a business perspective it DOES make sense. LoL can afford to give out $1 million awards to world champions... Although that probably has a lot to do with the better spectator model LoL allows everybody to use and only premium players can use it here....

Edited by Strikeshadow, 07 August 2015 - 07:32 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Savage Wolf, on 07 August 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

Well, granted if I don't mind having to spend 5-10 minutes of work in the mechlab every time I want to drop in a new mech then I guess I could use the same equipment on multiple mechs. Except if it is locked in a match (In which case you could say you are using more than one), then I need to wait even further.
But in LOL I don't have to do any of those shenanigans to avoid buying multiple modules. I can just play the actual game. I really can't see how it can be defended that LOL's system is simply just better for us players. If I want the level of ease of LOL in MWO there is no way around grinding.

And lets not even mention that Summoner Spells in LOL are totally free to use, while consumables in MWO once again increase the grind.

Except Summoner spells are critical to the game. While consumables really aren't. You can't win a match in LOL without using Flash at least 12 times. You can't jungle in LOL without using smite 20+ times.

While I can go through the entirety of a CW match, and win, without using any consumables. I already don't use consumables in 75% of my solo queue drops.

I personally think that if you unlock a module, you should be able to use it on all mechs. So I'm not defending that. Again: The grind is hard, but not as hard as people make it seem.

[Savage Wolf]

Strikeshadow, on 07 August 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

The thing is that from a business perspective it DOES make sense. LoL can afford to give out $1 million awards to world champions... Although that probably has a lot to do with the better spectator model LoL allows everybody to use and only premium players can use it here....

There's a lot more to it than that. The gameplay is just simply better designed and therefor suited for e-sports while simultaneously being accessible to a lot more people. MWO is a multiplayer game based on lore and rules made for table top and old outdated ones at that. LOL just simply have a much better foundation to build upon.

[Savage Wolf]

IraqiWalker, on 07 August 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

Except Summoner spells are critical to the game. While consumables really aren't. You can't win a match in LOL without using Flash at least 12 times. You can't jungle in LOL without using smite 20+ times.

While I can go through the entirety of a CW match, and win, without using any consumables. I already don't use consumables in 75% of my solo queue drops.

I personally think that if you unlock a module, you should be able to use it on all mechs. So I'm not defending that. Again: The grind is hard, but not as hard as people make it seem.

If consumables were free and even refreshed after a while, they would be a lot more important. And a flash does often do more in a LOL game than an UAV does in MWO. But they still make you more powerful and add an element to the game, add depth without too much complexity. But is then discouraged because they cost c-bills.
I often use consumables because I want to play the full game, but I get punished for it. In LOL it's just integral to the gameplay that everyone can use summoner spells.

[IraqiWalker]

Savage Wolf, on 07 August 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

There's a lot more to it than that. The gameplay is just simply better designed and therefor suited for e-sports while simultaneously being accessible to a lot more people. MWO is a multiplayer game based on lore and rules made for table top and old outdated ones at that. LOL just simply have a much better foundation to build upon.

That is true.

Also, unlike MWO, LOL had years to build on. Starting with Dota 1 (Guinsoo was the one who really made DotA, and he's a major part of LoL's creation). LoL had an existing model to build on, while MW:O is pretty much alone in it's genre. I frankly have yet to see a game predating MW:O that worked like MW:O. (Heavy Gear might work as an example, but that is very shaky ground)

Savage Wolf, on 07 August 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

If consumables were free and even refreshed after a while, they would be a lot more important. And a flash does often do more in a LOL game than an UAV does in MWO. But they still make you more powerful and add an element to the game, add depth without too much complexity. But is then discouraged because they cost c-bills.
I often use consumables because I want to play the full game, but I get punished for it. In LOL it's just integral to the gameplay that everyone can use summoner spells.

Part of it is how the community views consumables. I disagree about the Flash vs UAV comparison, and view it the other way around. MWO consumables are massively more powerful, simply due to the fact that there is no respawn, and a single UAV can actually decide the entire match, not just a single teamfight. I pop that UAV in the right location, and my team can form a perfect firing line, or do a proper push within seconds, and end the entire match. Flash at best can change a single team fight, and in the course of a single LoL match, you can average 8-10 team fights. So the impact is much bigger here.

Anyways, I don't think we're really arguing here. I think the grind needs improving, you think it needs improving. We're just disagreeing on whether it's an 80% fix, or a 60% fix.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 07 August 2015 - 07:51 PM.

[Savage Wolf]

IraqiWalker, on 07 August 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

Also, unlike MWO, LOL had years to build on. Starting with Dota 1 (Guinsoo was the one who really made DotA, and he's a major part of LoL's creation). LoL had an existing model to build on, while MW:O is pretty much alone in it's genre. I frankly have yet to see a game predating MW:O that worked like MW:O. (Heavy Gear might work as an example, but that is very shaky ground)

And that is mostly the only real advantage that MWO has: No one is doing exactly what it does so there is no competition. However if someone tried, they could easily outperform MWO. And to some degree I'm actually hoping someone does. I love mechs, but I'm no longer impressed by Battletech. Not as a multiplayer game at least.

IraqiWalker, on 07 August 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

Anyways, I don't think we're really arguing here. I think the grind needs improving, you think it needs improving. We're just disagreeing on whether it's an 80% fix, or a 60% fix.

True indeed.

[Strikeshadow]

They did have Table top games, MW2-4 and Mechcommander 1 & 2 to build upon...hence the title of this thread.

[Savage Wolf]

Strikeshadow, on 07 August 2015 - 08:43 PM, said:

They did have Table top games, MW2-4 and Mechcommander 1 & 2 to build upon...hence the title of this thread.

None of which were online shooters. They were all single player games for which BattleTech is much more suited. They were games where the price tag of an atlas versus a locust made more sense because it that much better. In MWO it's not supposed to be better, but it still costs more for some reason.

[Strikeshadow]

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

None of which were online shooters. They were all single player games for which BattleTech is much more suited. They were games where the price tag of an atlas versus a locust made more sense because it that much better. In MWO it's not supposed to be better, but it still costs more for some reason.

True enough. MWO simply has not learned to manage its economy well. They started in 2011 or so and LoL started well before 2006 so it's likely MWO will improve with time. However, it astonishes me that MWO did not learn how to manage its players and economy from other games. Oh and by the way, MW3 & MW4 were pretty good first/third person shooters online. MW4 was a viable online game for about 5 years....

[Savage Wolf]

Strikeshadow, on 08 August 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

True enough. MWO simply has not learned to manage its economy well. They started in 2011 or so and LoL started well before 2006 so it's likely MWO will improve with time. However, it astonishes me that MWO did not learn how to manage its players and economy from other games. Oh and by the way, MW3 & MW4 were pretty good first/third person shooters online. MW4 was a viable online game for about 5 years....

LOL was built from the ground up with both lore and game mechanics to be a MOBA. MWO will never have such a solid foundation and will therefore never reach the potential of LOL. And LOL still has the flexibility to change everything, MWO can't stray from the holy bible of lore without purists setting fire to PGI and the community.
I never played MW3, but when playing MW4 online it was clear that the chassis was not balanced. You almost always saw Assault mechs everywhere because in the single player campaign it made sense that bigger mechs where better, that's why they cost more. But then why choose a medium mech when you could choose any mech you wanted? They were balanced for single player, not for multiplayer.

[IraqiWalker]

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

None of which were online shooters. They were all single player games for which BattleTech is much more suited. They were games where the price tag of an atlas versus a locust made more sense because it that much better. In MWO it's not supposed to be better, but it still costs more for some reason.

Actually, a fully customized Locust will still be cheaper than an Atlas, but not by much (Xl 190+Endo+FF+DHS rounds up to aroun 9 Mil). Also, you can't really use "it's not supposed to be better" here. Because we have so many roles, there are things the Locust can do, an Atlas could never dream of, and vice versa. So the cost is offset in some other way.

Strikeshadow, on 08 August 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

True enough. MWO simply has not learned to manage its economy well. They started in 2011 or so and LoL started well before 2006 so it's likely MWO will improve with time. However, it astonishes me that MWO did not learn how to manage its players and economy from other games. Oh and by the way, MW3 & MW4 were pretty good first/third person shooters online. MW4 was a viable online game for about 5 years....

Rewards 2.0 has been very painful, at first it was very good, because you had rewards from TAG, and NARC really help out, but not anymore.

Also, from a purely online perspective, MW4 was bad. Literally every match was IS mechs with clan weapons.

I look at MW4 as a good single player game, with an awful absolutely unbalanced, and broken online multiplayer experience.

[Savage Wolf]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

Actually, a fully customized Locust will still be cheaper than an Atlas, but not by much (Xl 190+Endo+FF+DHS rounds up to aroun 9 Mil). Also, you can't really use "it's not supposed to be better" here. Because we have so many roles, there are things the Locust can do, an Atlas could never dream of, and vice versa. So the cost is offset in some other way.

Maybe in MechCommander there was a need for light mechs to do certain things an Atlas could not. Didn't play the game enough to discover any real need for mech doing anything but deal damage.

The only role I've ever seen in any MechWarrior game is damage dealer. Living Legends had vehicles that better suited VS aircrafts and support LRMs worked and scouts were needed to some extent. But otherwise, bigger is better, that's why you needed to earn the bigger mechs.
In MWO there are only mechs to destroy and every time that LRMs get useful people rage that a new element is added to the game and ECM had completely removed what little use we had for scouts. And eventually everyone has earned themselves an Atlas if they want. That's why they've tried to balance the weight classes and chassis, but I don't think it can be done well enough.

[IraqiWalker]

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2015 - 05:59 AM, said:

Maybe in MechCommander there was a need for light mechs to do certain things an Atlas could not. Didn't play the game enough to discover any real need for mech doing anything but deal damage.

The only role I've ever seen in any MechWarrior game is damage dealer. Living Legends had vehicles that better suited VS aircrafts and support LRMs worked and scouts were needed to some extent. But otherwise, bigger is better, that's why you needed to earn the bigger mechs.
In MWO there are only mechs to destroy and every time that LRMs get useful people rage that a new element is added to the game and ECM had completely removed what little use we had for scouts. And eventually everyone has earned themselves an Atlas if they want. That's why they've tried to balance the weight classes and chassis, but I don't think it can be done well enough.

Talk to the guys in my locust thread. Most of them will show you that pulling 500+ damage in a locust is very easy to do. I think my best game was in my 6xSPL 1E before quirks, where I dealt 800 damage 6+kills. Which was more than alpha, and bravo lances on my own team put together. a 169Kph AC 24 with infinite ammo does a LOT of hurt.

On the other hand, a Locust really shouldn't be leading the charge. Yet, it's great at scouting, harassing, and escorting. Whereas an Atlas is good at charge leading. Tanking damage, brawling, and general utility for the team.

They each have their own virtues, and downsides.

However, you hint at another thing that needs fixing in this game: Role Warfare is on life support.

[Savage Wolf]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

Talk to the guys in my locust thread. Most of them will show you that pulling 500+ damage in a locust is very easy to do. I think my best game was in my 6xSPL 1E before quirks, where I dealt 800 damage 6+kills. Which was more than alpha, and bravo lances on my own team put together. a 169Kph AC 24 with infinite ammo does a LOT of hurt.

On the other hand, a Locust really shouldn't be leading the charge. Yet, it's great at scouting, harassing, and escorting. Whereas an Atlas is good at charge leading. Tanking damage, brawling, and general utility for the team.

They each have their own virtues, and downsides.

However, you hint at another thing that needs fixing in this game: Role Warfare is on life support.

Let me clarify, when I originally talked about an Atlas being better than a Locust I was talking about older titles, not MWO. The balance is much better in MWO, because it has to be or just like in MW4, everyone would just use Assaults. But given that it makes little sense that you need to pay more for the Atlas if it's not better.

And yes, lights can do other things than assaults in MWO because of their speed. Or rather, fight differently. Because that's still all we do. Deal damage. There are no other roles in the game.

I also fear that the reason we are not given an objective based game mode is simply that assaults would become useless in that mode. So MWO can't really evolve past deathmatch because it just doesn't have the balance or flexibility to do it.

[Strikeshadow]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

Actually, a fully customized Locust will still be cheaper than an Atlas, but not by much (Xl 190+Endo+FF+DHS rounds up to aroun 9 Mil). Also, you can't really use "it's not supposed to be better" here. Because we have so many roles, there are things the Locust can do, an Atlas could never dream of, and vice versa. So the cost is offset in some other way.


Rewards 2.0 has been very painful, at first it was very good, because you had rewards from TAG, and NARC really help out, but not anymore.

Also, from a purely online perspective, MW4 was bad. Literally every match was IS mechs with clan weapons.

I look at MW4 as a good single player game, with an awful absolutely unbalanced, and broken online multiplayer experience.

It was balanced because everybody could play whatever mech or build they wanted. Some were better than others, but it didn't matter because everybody owned everything. Here the balancing is worse because people do not own everything. In MW4, people ran 7 erl Nova cats, 6erl Timber wolves, 6 erl dire wolves, erl/gauss rifle combo dire wolves, 6 erl fast atlases (highest armor in the game too), Catapult, Loki and Vulture (maddog) lrm boats, AC and Thunderbolt based Thanatoses, 3 erl Shadowcats, AC 20 (uac, lbx) + flamer Shadowcats, 3erl Cougers, 4erl Ryokens, Gauss rifle/erl mixed build Madcat MkIIs. All viable in competitive play where tonnage and mech number were fixed for each match.

Granted medium and small lasers, AC2s, light gauss rifles, pulse lasers, SRMs, MRMs, Streaks, PPCs and mgs were not viable. The only mechs that were really not viable in competitive play were the Awesome, Locust, Thor, Sunder and Raven. However, in game modes like No Heat/No Ammo or capture the flag, they were viable.

The different game modes available made MW4 a much more flexible game.

Edit: The different game modes make different mechs and builds viable. Deathmatch alone limits the flexibility of the game.

Edited by Strikeshadow, 08 August 2015 - 06:34 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Strikeshadow, on 08 August 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

It was balanced because everybody could play whatever mech or build they wanted. Some were better than others, but it didn't matter because everybody owned everything. Here the balancing is worse because people do not own everything.

Eventually I can have everything, including the most powerful mech at any moment. Grind does not give or take away from balance. It's entirely irrelevant when it comes to balance.

But yes, maybe MWO also needs to go the route of accepting that it can not make all mechs viable in all game modes and then actually create game modes that differ from deathmatch. I'd love that.

[Strikeshadow]

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

Eventually I can have everything, including the most powerful mech at any moment. Grind does not give or take away from balance. It's entirely irrelevant when it comes to balance.

But yes, maybe MWO also needs to go the route of accepting that it can not make all mechs viable in all game modes and then actually create game modes that differ from deathmatch. I'd love that.

I'd agree about balance except people with lower level accounts are mixed with high level accounts. I know in LoL that when I have a lvl 20 placed on my team (from duo que) who lacks adequate rune pages, it annoys me. Still that rarely happens. In MWO many many people will be playing without fully skilled VIABLE mechs and those skills make a huge difference - HUGE.

Edited by Strikeshadow, 08 August 2015 - 06:48 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Strikeshadow, on 08 August 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

I'd agree about balance except people with lower level accounts are mixed with high level accounts. I know in LoL that when I have a lvl 20 placed on my team (from duo que) who lacks adequate rune pages, it annoys me. Still that rarely happens. In MWO many many people will be playing without fully skilled VIABLE mechs and those skills make a huge difference - HUGE.

That's kind of a different point to the whole grind. In LOL when I get a new Champ, I still have all my runes and masteries so I can be fully functional with that champ except for of course, experience with that specific champ. In MWO when I get a new mech I need to upgrade and master it from scratch again. Every time. Doesn't matter that I have already mastered several mechs, I need to such with my new mech before it gets on the level with my other mechs.