40 replies to this topic

[bad arcade kitty]

that 'awesome guide' suggests trebuchets instead of hbk-4j

[Ascaloth]

4J is too cheesy

[Chados]

Oh, yes. I have it bookmarked.

[Freeman 52]

Hi Chados. Fellow rookie here, I decided to go for LRMs too for exactly those same reasons. I went with a medium - WVR - that gives me the mobility I need. But it also has variants focused on lasers and on ballistics, and let me tell you: those are also fun. So make sure you have some variety in your first few mechs.

The trouble with LRMs is everyone seems to have an ecm these days!!! So my best matches as missile kayak (I reserve the term boat for your Catapult) were the ones where lights acted as spotters, countering ecm and launching UAVs. Ask people to use R and give you targets in the pre-drop lobby. Then stay on the second line, but never at the end of the pack as you are likely to get flanked (I have...). If you follow a couple of big assaults they can shield a lot of direct hits from you while allowing some good target locks.

Finally, play to your enjoyment. Fun is the quickest way to cbills and xp! I have loved taking my LRM kayak to different maps and modes, finding the right tactics in each one and progressively geting better locks and more assists. Some maps are horrible for LRMs without a coordinated team, but you just got to live die repeat, I guess.

Good luck!

Edited by EchoFreebirth, 10 August 2015 - 12:49 AM.

[Chados]

Catapults are similar to the Wolverine in variant flexibility. The Catapult Mastery pack comes with the missile-focused A1 but the K2 and Jester are direct-fire energy-weapon carriers. C1 Catapults give a better mix of both, I think. I like the 65 ton class because they seem to give the best mix of staying power and mobility for my abilities.

[Sarlic]

So how are you guys peforming so far?

[Rushin Roulette]

Chados, on 09 August 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

I know, I know. But a gal can dream....

Dont dream that the LRMS counter ECM or that the BAP bubbles are useful. Get better and better with LRMs while carry on learning to dumbfire them well. Too many LRM players relly totally on locks given from others or UAVs to be able to shoot and hit anything at all. These are the ones sitting way in the back of the field complaining that no one is giving them locks (through ECM) and these are also the ones giving LRMs a bad name.

Carry on what you are doing and continue to learn to play LRMs correctly (ideally within 300 meters of your target and using your own lock or shooting blindly predicting where the target is going to be at the time your missiles hit the ground. Also, speed is king is also true for LRM mechs. Never stand still, always maneuver yourself into a better shooting position for the next 2 targets (in this sence it is a lot like playing chess, always think 2 moves ahead so that you can target the next opponent after taking down the current one).

[The Basilisk]

Koniving, on 09 August 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

That is intended in Battletech as a minimum accuracy range. Not an actual minimum range as a hit at 30 meters is still full damage. There is no lack of damage dealt. (Sorry; that misconception always irks me and PGI's holding of it gives the Clans an unnecessary and unfair advantage in MWO in terms of LRMs as well as a really weird and silly set of mechanics). Much akin to arm-held ballistics (AC/2 and AC/5), Gauss Rifle min range, and PPC minimum accuracy range. That is because they are written to fire like this. (Note high quality animated missile gif in first spoiler.)

Spoiler

Below is more to back it up. While it applies to Battletech, sadly it was blatantly ignored for MWO and ~most~ Mechwarrior games.

Spoiler

Middle column, bottom of the line. It's because LRMs are supposed to be fired at a ballistic launch angle (upward) into the sky akin to Howitzer / MLRS rockets. In fact, the inspiring concept of the 1984-1987 writing there of the first/second generation description as well as the Catapult is the Multiple Launch Rocket System as a field artillery. Arrow IV and Homing LRM concept are based on the ATACMS. The Artemis-enhanced LRMs/SRMs are based on the "Smart Rockets" mentioned. Notice the emphasis of "accurate to 30 feet, to a distance of 180 miles." The chosen number in Battletech in regards to missiles is 180 meters, and the chosen distance of each hex is 30 meters. "Battledroids" later Battletech originally started with infantry and vehicles and the mechs came later; and that was the big selling point that got it to take off. (MLRS technology has been left unchanged since early 1980s and most MLRS in service are from that time; between this and many anime sources came much of BT's origins. Such as the Shadowhawk, which came from an anime. Came from the Dougram. (Also note the artist: William H. Keith. As in the first Battletech Novelist). He also wrote the explanation on PPCs and LRM min ranges up there in the columns. Comparison of Shadowhawk / Dougram scale to MWO's Shadowhawk. This is also why LRMs have trouble hitting at close range.

Spoiler

MWO's Shadowhawk... Wolverine; also a 55 tonner that is supposed to be larger than a Shadowhawk (due to loads more armor on all of its variants; armor that often rivals even mechs that are 10 to 25 tons heavier than itself.) Thunderbolt, 65 tons. Scaled Timber Wolf Notice the helmet inside the cockpit.

(My point is the mechs are supposed to be a LOT smaller than they are in MWO; in favor of LRMs have 180 min accuracy range because hard to hit at close range when meant to be lobbed into the air). So in BT, IS mechs using LRMs were always set to fire their LRMs into the sky. Since standard LRMs don't track terribly well and the missiles are supposed to fire at upward angles of 30 to 80 degrees, you could miss that target. I showcase this example. This tank with 4 LRM-5 launchers. Attacked multiple targets in 10 seconds while tracked (unable to move). Twin AC/10s to the back of the Atlas from its turret. To each of the attacked Enforcers, a single volley of LRM-5 from 1 launcher per target. Only the extreme right is missed, due to the angle of the attack and lack of time for the missiles to make the turn. Remember each hex is 30 meters. That means targets of 90 meters -- hit, 180, hit, 210, hit. The 60 meter target -- missed due more to the angle than much else (as the pilot had incredible gunnery skill). Accuracy. Now Clan mechs don't believe in indirect fire and so instead, their LRMs are fired directly at the enemy with little to no arc and no intention of lobbing them over buildings. Thus no min range -- they fire in your face. -------- Now: Circa 1994, the excuse of "not arming until 180 meters" was a misconception of the newly introduced "Hotloaded" trait, where you could preload the missiles -- as apparently according to this trait Inner Sphere LRMs always start unloaded, and will chamber into the launchers ~After~ you acquire a target and intend to use them -- thus the 180 meter limit (and Clans don't have this because they are always chambered and ready to explode). They will always render full damage even at point blank range -- the issue is they are not likely to hit. This is meant to explain away the "why not just point directly at them instead?" logic, as well as force the "Hotloaded" trait to be a difficult choice rather than a "I'll just aim now... okay I'll lob instead now" toggle.

<.< Sorry, carry on. Just like to fix that misconception whenever possible. -------------------------------------- To Chados-- Welcome to MWO. I'll have advice for you tomorrow. Or I could even go into some matches alongside you with my LRM mechs. If possible I'll see if I can get Fatal to join us; her savage brawling techniques can help support your LRM'ing and vice-versa. I can also tag team with you for plenty of direct fire slaughter or go in as a tank for you. Look forward to helping you out or perhaps even seeing you in the field. (This vid has Rie and Fatal as brand new players [within a week of starting] with an escort mission for a stock build of mine to help them learn some cohesive gameplay strategies. This one is much later, watch after my glorified suicide to see progress. And my own LRM playstyle [when not boating])

While liking your exempts of BT - Weapons literature very much, it has to be said that the reasons for PPCs, LRMs, ACs and Gaus not to be accurate or not to be usable below or above a specified range differs even within BattleTech Lore.
( PPCs are said to need a certain distance to focus, you can circumvent that by shutting of your field focus controller wich can leed the weapon to backfire, LRMs do not arm below a certain range cause it would be to dangerous for them beeing armed within theri tubes, longrange ACs and Gauss have long barrels and swinging such a long object after a near object moving fast is quite difficult, if you have acces to a shooting range try this with a hunting rifle quite difficult below 10m or so. )

So you see Chados as many heads as many opinions even if the outcom does not differ.

As for LRMs as main weapons...yea why not.
Just accept that they have some serious down sides like spreading dmg and beeing useless against disciplined and aware foes hunting specificaly YOU.
Since most attention will go to high priority targets, like the latest cheese Clan mechs or the few Inner Sphere mechs still considered meta or at least a bit dangerous, you will most likely be ignored anyway.
What most LRM users constantly ignore is the fact that IS LRMs can deliver withering high dmg bursts at medium ranges.
So clinging to a meta mech or some very large mech like a Crab or a Dire and get some explosives in your big buddy enemys face. He will be quite thankfull sice you are in no danger shooting his back with LRMs and you are still totaly able to be his rear guard.
An other thing is you will have direct sight line while being virtualy out of sight.
Use always a beagle probe when pugging and the modules sensor range and target decay.
So have fun

Edited by The Basilisk, 10 August 2015 - 07:16 AM.

[Chados]

That's one thing I was enjoying with the Cat last time I was online-using the weapons in different ways depending on the terrain and situation. ALRM-15 do up to 15 damage, equivalent to an ERPPC but obviously even with Artemis it's not as focused assuming all 15 missiles hit. Nevertheless, they can be used in direct lock or in blind fire under heavy ECM similarly to a PPC, i.e. the philosophy of use in those situations is similar, but you also are able to indirect fire when you're pinned and teammates have locks.

I haven't managed to snag modules, but target delay is at the top of my list. I also want to get UAVs once I can afford that, it's too bad that those are consumables because that ain't cheap. Both my missile Cats have BAP and Artemis-equipped launchers, I can't imagine packing LRMs without them. BAP helps your teammates so even if I'm getting light-swarmed, before I go down they can see what is happening around where I'm at.

I'm beginning to learn that playing the self-propelled artillery game is a must-I managed a kill on a recent drop (first in a very long while) but immediately got jumped by an Arctic Cheetah because I didn't move out for a new location after lobbing a couple salvos. The AC saw me and jumped me, and I put up a good fight but that was that in the end. Those things are tough to hit. Lesson learned: Shoot and move. Hopefully I'll keep learning bit by bit to where I can make a real and sustained contribution to the team effort.

[Koniving]

Chados, on 10 August 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

I've sent you an add request (see the three heads on the bottom-right-ish in the main interface? You'll see it there.)

At the moment I'm getting the dust off some of my mechs to figure out what to bring with me. Once you have over a hundred of them it gets a bit harder to choose what is more suited for a job.

[GenghisJr]

Chados, on 09 August 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

I did, and I haven't a clue what it is. Something's literally making the torso of a light mech shake. Others have seen it. It's got to be a hardware issue. I don't have the issue in 50-65+ tonners (tried a Hunchback 4G along the journey to the Cat and absolutely hated it but it didn't have the shakes) so I've got some kind of issue with either operator headspace or setting somewhere. Ah, well. I like heavies better anyway. They suit me much better.

Try holding the shift key to stabilize the shake, it has something to do with the 360 deg rotation of urbies(curse them for this problem) and is made worse by low fps, from my observations and suffering from this problem since urbie was introduced

[Darrious Quinn]

Chados, on 10 August 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

That's one thing I was enjoying with the Cat last time I was online-using the weapons in different ways depending on the terrain and situation. ALRM-15 do up to 15 damage, equivalent to an ERPPC but obviously even with Artemis it's not as focused assuming all 15 missiles hit. Nevertheless, they can be used in direct lock or in blind fire under heavy ECM similarly to a PPC, i.e. the philosophy of use in those situations is similar, but you also are able to indirect fire when you're pinned and teammates have locks.

I haven't managed to snag modules, but target delay is at the top of my list. I also want to get UAVs once I can afford that, it's too bad that those are consumables because that ain't cheap. Both my missile Cats have BAP and Artemis-equipped launchers, I can't imagine packing LRMs without them. BAP helps your teammates so even if I'm getting light-swarmed, before I go down they can see what is happening around where I'm at.

I'm beginning to learn that playing the self-propelled artillery game is a must-I managed a kill on a recent drop (first in a very long while) but immediately got jumped by an Arctic Cheetah because I didn't move out for a new location after lobbing a couple salvos. The AC saw me and jumped me, and I put up a good fight but that was that in the end. Those things are tough to hit. Lesson learned: Shoot and move. Hopefully I'll keep learning bit by bit to where I can make a real and sustained contribution to the team effort.

One of the Golden rules right there. I cut my teeth on the founders-4. Like you, at first I had no aptitude for lights. As wonderfulness the Jenner was, I was terrible at it. I did have a natural affinity to both the hunchie and catapult. Hunch aside for now, my C1F have been through hell and back. Pre-quirk i was running x2 ALRM-20s, 3ML, and a TAG.
Until I graduated to the Battlemaster-S, C1F was my go-to for a very long time.

My own lessons learned, some you already know:
1. Run with the group. People will be too busy with the more immediate threats around and you can always hide behind the fatties.
2. Fire and move, as you've learned. Never fire from the same spot more then twice.
3. You are 65 tons, don't be afraid to use it. You'll be surprised at how many lights think twice about messing with you when they figure out your not tucking tail and running. With 3 MLs, you will still chew off a leg before they eat through enough armor. Except cheetahs.... fear them.
4. Bring your own TAG and don't depend on others for locks. Its not worth the hassle and if you are with the group, shouldn't be an issue.
5. As many have said already, dumb firing is a tactic, not a mistake. You will seriously piss some people off when they keep getting hit by volleys while under ECM. Watch their torso twisting, it gets frantic.
6. Don't waste ammo on anything over 500m out or on lights. Stick to targets 300-500 out. Reason I say don't waste amom on lights is most can out pace a volley and find cover before the Salvo hits. Unless the bugger is legged, just save the shots.

Besides that, don't listen to the LRM hate. Most of that is directed to the lazy asses who sit back at 800 and cry they don't have locks. As a new player, keep to what you find enjoyable and you are comfortable with. Use it as a foundation and build from there.

Me? I'm almost exclusively a light pilot now. So it goes to show how skill sets develop from humble beginnings. If I find myself running you down with my Cheeter, I'll wave before taking those pretty mouse ears. XD

edit: corrected some of that horrible spelling and grammar.

Edited by Darrious Quinn, 11 August 2015 - 06:40 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Welcome to the cult of the LRM, brother and or sister.

See here, your new best friend for a heavy LRMboat: The Orion VA

Edited by Kjudoon, 10 August 2015 - 05:08 PM.

[Chados]

Koniving, on 10 August 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

I've sent you an add request (see the three heads on the bottom-right-ish in the main interface? You'll see it there.)

Awesome, when I'm back in later in the week I'll check for it

[Chados]

So I managed to get enough data feed on the iPad to watch the videos Koniving posted.

I recommend them.

The last one is him in a Griffin with LRM15 and SSRM2. Really interesting 3D strategy using jump jets. My C1 trades jets for armor. But I also now have an A1C with jets...it won't be as bouncy as a medium but I like the possibilities.

[Chados]

Kjudoon, on 10 August 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

Welcome to the cult of the LRM, brother and or sister.

See here, your new best friend for a heavy LRMboat: The Orion VA

"Sister."

I recommend this video too. Great mix of direct and indirect firing, use of TAG, and MLAS when ammo depleted. Very instructive.

[JC Daxion]

Try your catapult with 3 Medium pulse and a tag, with a pair of LRM15's and a couple JJ's.. Either a XL280, or for a bit more ammo XL265.

the mech runs light on ammo, but really hits pretty well with the pulse lasers for when you open a hole in the armor. It is meant to be played as a second line mech, just behind the brawlers, lobbing LRM's over their heads and blasting pin-point shots when you get the oppertunity.

It will teach you much about being a Lurmisher, and no one will ever give you crap about hiding behind a rock not helping. A very fun way to play a catapult, though you will need to learn to twist..

that said, I also play a brawling jester, with 4 MPL's, 2LL's with BAP and an XL-325, with Dual AMS and a pair of JJ's. It's a heavy that runs basically 90 KPH with JJ's.. dare i say more maneuverable than a timber wolf?


Round off your K2, with a pair of AC5's, and dual PPC's for a premier long range mech.

[Chados]

That's actually a very similar build to my C1. I carry 2xALRM15 and 4xML. I own a TAG but the times I've carried it I've got killed before I could really get in position to get a good paint. I have one XL255 but it's on my A1C. XL motors ain't cheap! I could switch them around, but I like the standard 260 for staying power when I have to use my lasers and fight, usually after my LRM ammo is gone. I'm starting to chain the LRMs from time to time, to conserve missiles.

I have jets in inventory. The trade off would be ammo for the LRMs, I only pack 720 rounds as it is and in a good match I will run dry. Now, the A1C I have does have jets. I'm messing around with a better build for it-thinking about SSRM2 instead of the ASRM6 it came with.

I also have a Jester and K2, but I'm saving them for after I get basics unlocked in the missile Cats first. One left in the C1 then I start on the A1C.

I like to tag along with the brawlers and rain all over whoever it is they are brawling with. When I can do that consistently, I have a good game.

Edited by Chados, 12 August 2015 - 01:38 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

720 is very very low for a lurmboat
i pack 990 on my lurm kit fox and often use them all

[Kjudoon]

If you liked that video, dear lrm sister, check out the others on my channel. Lots of griffin footage as a skirmisher and battlemaster made into the world's biggest kintaro.