82 replies to this topic

[xXBagheeraXx]

Wintersdark, on 09 August 2015 - 07:24 PM, said:

I don't disagree that we shouldn't have massive weapon quirks, but really... What else is there to make Awesome's and Dragon's good? Note that even with HUGE quirks, they still aren't particularly good =/

Awesomes are poorly scaled and reliant on big energy weapons. The best mechs atm either boat lasers or lasers and gauss. While the awesome can boat lasers, The massive size of the thing gets you ruined at the range you need to get at to fire the lasers effectively, and the face time you need to get a full burn in for the lasers. Awesomes need to boat PPCs at long range. Its about the only time they are remotely dangerous.

And even then...unless you are Anne Oakley with PPC's they arent that dangerous in the current meta....Everyone is running around in arctic cheetas, shadow cats and things like that...fast, mobile, small, hard to see and hard to hit mechs that PPC snipers arent the best mechs equipped to handle. Its all well and great if you can catch a Whale or a crab in the open but other than that....good luck...

Savage Wolf, on 09 August 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

Yeah, that's the problem. Your Atlasses will stay in the hangar and you will be a burden to your team for picking them. And why waste development time on mechs that are not going to leave the hangers? I guess they could just model them, but not animate them because they are just pretty to look at. And really, what value does that have for new players?

No, MWO is an online shooter, so all choices should be made as viable as possible.

You say that until one of my 350 engined atlases blindsides you at 200 meters.....I dont care what you are driving, they HURT. It only takes a little finesse to get close.

[Wintersdark]

Yeah, I know what the problems Awesome's have are, my point is that you need to make them a viable option for an Assault slot, and they aren't right now. Even with MASSIVE weapon quirks.


So, while I think we all agree that massive weapon quirks are A Bad Thing, what should be done? What's the better alternative?

[Savage Wolf]

xXBagheeraXx, on 09 August 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

You say that until one of my 350 engined atlases blindsides you at 200 meters.....I dont care what you are driving, they HURT. It only takes a little finesse to get close.

Not if I'm in my King Crab or Dire Wolf that is simply better at the very same thing.

Wintersdark, on 09 August 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

So, while I think we all agree that massive weapon quirks are A Bad Thing, what should be done? What's the better alternative?

I actually don't think that massive weapon quirks are a bad thing by default. If they make a mech viable without making them overpowered (like the Thunderbolt) then I'm fine with them.

[FupDup]

Savage Wolf, on 09 August 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

I actually don't think that massive weapon quirks are a bad thing by default. If they make a mech viable without making them overpowered (like the Thunderbolt) then I'm fine with them.

They should also fit the character of the mech...for example, the Awesome having extra powerful guns makes sense, while the Dragon not so much.

[Savage Wolf]

FupDup, on 09 August 2015 - 08:09 PM, said:

They should also fit the character of the mech...for example, the Awesome having extra powerful guns makes sense, while the Dragon not so much.

Then consider it a necesary retcon of the mech to make it viable. Because otherwise you might as well remove the mech from the game entirely.
I'm not against other options to making mechs more viable, I just don't think that this option is really that bad.

[FupDup]

Savage Wolf, on 09 August 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

Then consider it a necesary retcon of the mech to make it viable. Because otherwise you might as well remove the mech from the game entirely.
I'm not against other options to making mechs more viable, I just don't think that this option is really that bad.

I'm not against weapon quirks, I just think that they should be reserved for mechs whose character fits heavy firepower. The Dragon in particular seems more about mobility to me, and some have also called it a 3025 brawler heavy (durability?).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 09 August 2015 - 08:14 PM, said:

I'm not against weapon quirks, I just think that they should be reserved for mechs whose character fits heavy firepower. The Dragon in particular seems more about mobility to me, and some have also called it a 3025 brawler heavy (durability?).

Durability and speed, basically it needs to be able to compete with the Stormcrow as a skirmisher. So much like the Cicada is an oversized light, the Dragon should be just an oversized medium.

[Savage Wolf]

FupDup, on 09 August 2015 - 08:14 PM, said:

I'm not against weapon quirks, I just think that they should be reserved for mechs whose character fits heavy firepower. The Dragon in particular seems more about mobility to me, and some have also called it a 3025 brawler heavy (durability?).

But what if you cannot recreate that in MWO? A lot of **** was written in lore that cannot be recreated in an online shooter, was simply there to justify TT rules or simply was sounding amazing in novels, but in reality not such a great thing.
But if they can recreate lore in a viable way, sure, lets do that. I'm just sure that we could make other interesting mechs that wasn't thought of in lore because lore wasn't written for MWO.

[FupDup]

Savage Wolf, on 09 August 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

But what if you cannot recreate that in MWO? A lot of **** was written in lore that cannot be recreated in an online shooter, was simply there to justify TT rules or simply was sounding amazing in novels, but in reality not such a great thing.
But if they can recreate lore in a viable way, sure, lets do that. I'm just sure that we could make other interesting mechs that wasn't thought of in lore because lore wasn't written for MWO.

Turn speed, twist speed, twist radius, +structure to various body parts, acceleration/deceleration, and we've got ourselves an agile heavy brawler.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 09 August 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

Turn speed, twist speed, twist radius, +structure to various body parts, acceleration/deceleration, and we've got ourselves an agile heavy brawler.

We can't have properly quirked mechs.

[IronLichRich]

There are good mechs and bad mechs. PGI can't do asymmetric numbers (don't remember the reasons), and are afraid that people might not want to play mechs that have some sort of disadvantage. So, PGI introduces quirks to buff and nerf mechs.

What this actually does, as said above, is kill customization. Loadouts are clearly better on some variants of a mech and encourage building to the quirks. This results in two types of top tier mechs. Those who are t1 naturally (which quirks were implemented to fix), and mechs that are t1 due to Megabuffz TM and are up a creek without a paddle if the quirks get changed.

[RoboPatton]

I still hate quirks. I agree with the others who've said 'generic' quirks would be better than the specific weapon quirks. Really pigeon holes half the robits into specific builds.

[TwentyOne]

Savage Wolf, on 09 August 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

Of course. Otherwise why even include old mechs in the game if they are irrelevant?

******* EXACTLY PEOPLE. DONT MAKE THE DEVS WASTE TIME ON MAKING MECHS THAT NOBODY USES. ALL MECHS SHOULD HAVE EQUAL POPULARITY

[Dashen]

Some mechs were never created to be good in the bt universe.

IMHO quirks exists so cheap people who cant afford clan tech or high tier expensive mechs stop whining and crying.

In short, people who buy a locust which costs 1.4 millions cbills expect to be effective and own atlases and dire wolves,10k and 17 cbills respectively.

Crappy people are everywhere, these are the results. Enjoy mwo.

[Exotic]

First of all, quirks was introduced to balance clan and IS mechs (PGI dont want to make "clear" fights like 12 IS vs 10 clan).

Most of IS mech got weak generic quirks like +10% laser cooldown. And some got strong quirks for specific weapon, but do you often see this "overpowered" mechs in matches? I dont.

Locusts have strongs quirks and I see them from time to time but not often. More often I see FireStarters in game but can't say that they have strong quirks. Ravens (2x/4x) have strong quirks but usually I meet 3L (due to ECM) who dont have strong quirks. BlackJacks with strong ML quirks I meet pretty often. Hunchbacks is now popular but mostly due to recent event with -35% price (I also buy them due to discount), but do you often see wolverines or centurions? They have pretty nice quirks. Dragon 1N I meet from time to time in game but Thunderbolts with amazing quirks I meet very rare. Awesome, Stalker? Very, very rare ...

It was observation from random games. But mech I named is most powerfull IS mechs and if you look in CW - top IS units use only them (for sure there is weight restriction in CW but anyway)

And I can say that I happy that random games is not filled with meta mechs only. I happy to meet Hunchback with 9 flamers, Atlas with 50 LRM only (20+20+10), spider with LBX and other funny setups.

P.S. Also the reason why quirks have place - to hint players about main weapon for specific mech. In lore it will be hard to replace MG with Gauss but in game - CPL-K2 with 2xGauss was my favorite mech for long time (and still stay in hungar).

Did you look in meta setup for clan mechs now? Pretty bored. Adder - 2 PPC, Nova - 2 PPC, StromCrow - 2 PPC, Hellbringer - 2 PPC, TimberWolf - 2 PPC + 4 SPL, Warhawk - 2 PPC + Gauss, DireWolf - 2 PPC + 2 Gauss.
After 2 weeks contract for any clan in CW I see PPC in nightmares. Before clan laser neft (for timer/storms) it was some metas with lasers but now ...

Edited by Exotic, 09 August 2015 - 11:56 PM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

point of quirks..... they said balance.... but i see sometimes effort to sell mechs...

[Joseph Mallan]

Odinvolk, on 09 August 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

In BT/MW universe "weak" mechs exists due to very good reasons. In RP environment of real battletech not all factions are equal. Some have better tech, better resources. Weaker factions can field more of "bad" mechs, cheaper. This is reflected in costs, tonnage restrictions, in team points allocation, etc. These factors create balance for different play styles, but more importantly allows for interesting variety. E.g. "do I field an Atlas or a bunch of urban mechs"? "Am i going to go with 4 mech clan team or 5 mech IS?" "How quickly can i get these better mechs to the right planet, or is it better to ship a whole lot of cheap crap right now?".

MWO is far removed from the cannon and complexity of BT/MW. Anyone can field anything instantly, and there are no consequences in cost, or time, or size of your team. Which meant that only a few mechs were a viable option, and the rest should be avoided.

To compensate, MWO has quirks which on one hand lower customization options of better mechs, and also improve viability of bad mechs (but also kills customization).

I am personal very much against this approach, but things are what they are.

TL;DR Version:

Due to absence of game depth and resource management quirks are used to make good mechs worse and bad mechs better, e.g. to achieve "balance".

Best explaination ever.

[Duke Nedo]

Vesta Beast, on 09 August 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

BECAUSE MY PULSE LASERS NEED TO BE THE ONLY BUILD

Says every bad (and current) player ever. In all honesty quirks killed customization. You never ever see a dragon that doesn't have 2 ac 5's. The specific quirks need to go, and be less strong. 50% er large just ruins the spider. Why use a large pulse, besides that you wanted to? It is just outright worse.

For arguments sake: but now we atleast sometimes see a Dragon.

A bit more seriously, variety and customization vs quirks is a knife that cuts both ways. While what you say is true for weapon specific quirks vs builds, there are also many examples where you can make several builds on one variant and everyone goes for the best variant only, obsoleting all but one variant for a chassi. Quirks often (in the first implementation) give one build to each variant to excel in, thus resulting in a higher number of variants on the field, but less build variety for the said variant... so in this respect I don't mind so much. Most chassi have a variant with quirks that are useful for what I want to run so I'll buy that variant. Bigger problem then with old favourite variants that got "the wrong quirks"...

Edit: or even worse, favourite Heroes that got the wrong quirks....

Edited by Duke Nedo, 10 August 2015 - 03:03 AM.

[kapusta11]

The point of quirks is to make try to make the game balanced without:

• Giving Cicada 3C, Spider, Commando, Dragon, Centurion, Summoner, Orion, Highlander, Atlas more energy hardpoints
  
• Scaling Awesome, Quickdraw, Catatpult, Threbuchet, Kintaro, Dragon, Orion, Thunderbolt, Battlemaster, Victor, Gargoyle, Nova down
  
• Making arm and hand actuators removable on Dragon, Highlander, Thunderbolt, Battlemaster, Wolverine, Centurion, Vindicator
  
• Making LRMs, SRMs, MGs, Flamers, LB10-Xs, AC10s, AC5s, AC2s, PPCs and ERPPCs useful

Edited by kapusta11, 10 August 2015 - 03:16 AM.

[Hotthedd]

I wouldn't mind seeing mechs with more surface area (Awesomes, Catapults, Dragons, etc.) get cooling quirks. More surface area=more dissipation/second.

Sadly, the borked heat system is PGI's third rail.