17 replies to this topic

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

here is my revolutionary way to achieve balance:

- give IS true doubles,clans keep 1.4:s
- flush all range,weapon specific heat generation and cooldown quirks,keep uac jam change,structure,general heat generation 10 % or lower and similar non offensive quirks in place,adjust them if needed,includes clan mechs.
- baseline 10 % buff to IS energy weapon range(er larges and ppcs not affected by this),not too op compared to clans,clans would have a slight edge over range.
- roll back clan energy weapon heat values to pre Nerfbat 1.0 values,make er large ghost heat more punishing tho.
- buff IS cooldown modules to 15 %


Pros:

- good IS mechs would still be viable against clans and vice versa

Cons:

- wolverines,dragons and thunderbolts and other once rarities would disappear from the battlefield.
- time to kill would still be pretty low

[Xetelian]

Give IS true dubs and un nerf the laser duration of some of the clan weapons.

[oneproduct]

This would actually make clan mechs even stronger than they already are. It doesn't matter if IS mechs go up to 2x DHS if you're going to simultaneously reduce the heat of clan energy weapons (which would give them better heat efficiency like proposed IS 2x DHS, but in a different way).

Plus at the same time you want to remove/reduce quirks which are generally present to help IS mechs compete with clan mechs.

[Y E O N N E]

Xetelian, on 13 August 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

Give IS true dubs and un nerf the laser duration of some of the clan weapons.

Clans don't have nerfed laser duration. They still do more damage per second of burn than their stock Inner Sphere counter-parts, which is why the Inner Sphere got duration quirks.

[Kiiyor]

Cookiemonter669, on 13 August 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

here is my revolutionary way to achieve balance:

- give IS true doubles,clans keep 1.4:s
- flush all range,weapon specific heat generation and cooldown quirks,keep uac jam change,structure,general heat generation 10 % or lower and similar non offensive quirks in place,adjust them if needed,includes clan mechs.
- baseline 10 % buff to IS energy weapon range(er larges and ppcs not affected by this),not too op compared to clans,clans would have a slight edge over range.
- roll back clan energy weapon heat values to pre Nerfbat 1.0 values,make er large ghost heat more punishing tho.
- buff IS cooldown modules to 15 %


Pros:

- good IS mechs would still be viable against clans and vice versa

Cons:

- wolverines,dragons and thunderbolts and other once rarities would disappear from the battlefield.
- time to kill would still be pretty low

This would really only buff the few overall well designed IS mechs, and would nerf far more than the three you mentioned.

Under the system you propose, and against the Clans, the Stalker would probably be the only mech I would pilot, or maybe a Dakka Crab. It wouldn't be worth working around the deficiencies in any other mech.

[bad arcade kitty]

that's some ******** ideas especially since is mechs already wallow in heat gen quirks and clan ones are already pretty hot

[Duke Nedo]

Step 1. Normalize XL engines...

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Kiiyor, on 13 August 2015 - 09:22 PM, said:

This would really only buff the few overall well designed IS mechs, and would nerf far more than the three you mentioned.

structure and armor buffs for the lower tier mechs.

bad arcade kitty, on 13 August 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

that's some ******** ideas especially since is mechs already wallow in heat gen quirks and clan ones are already pretty hot

idea is to bring the dps figures to about same,while maintaining the lore-faithful range advantage that clans have

[Yokaiko]

I got a better idea

1) change damage values to reflect the increased firing rates (vice a 10 second turn)
2) change heat values by the same standard
3) Truedubs
4) kill pin point convergence for any weapons that aren't arm mounted mechs WITH lower actuators, as in none, it fires in a straight line with regards to its placement from the retical
5) increase ammo counts to reflect the new armor values (they really need x2,5 with both structure and armor being doubled
6) retical sway in proportion to speed moved (allow TCs to reduce this)
7) Get rid of quirk
8) remove ghost heat.
9) 10 v 12 and un-nerf the damned clans


This this kills poinpoint for most mechs (barring maybe Whales and certain Highlanders that have other issues) reduces alpha damage AND DPS to table top levels (the mechs are currently doing over 3 times the table top damage against double armor) and lowers the heat so that stock builds may actually function. in addition you need to shoot more to kill a mech (raises TTK) both by virtue of lower alphas AND reduced accuracy.

For example a stock Awesome -8Q wasn't a hot mech in table top by virtue of its 28 SHS, if you fired all three in a turn you only gained 2 heat on the heat scale (assuming you weren't moving and no enviromental negative), because the heat phase was heat generated minus heatsinks, that means you could light into someone 4 turns straight before you started getting into heat issues, at a full run

[Ascaloth]

Just give us THIS

http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light

It was introduced by House Steiner in 3052, our current year in the game timeline. Even if the engine only achieve mass production by the year of 3058, i don't see any problems if they allow us to have it now. Maybe with some limitation, like fewer rating options.

[Lugh]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 August 2015 - 08:39 PM, said:

Clans don't have nerfed laser duration. They still do more damage per second of burn than their stock Inner Sphere counter-parts, which is why the Inner Sphere got duration quirks.

Mostly wrong.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

Check it again. The shorter IS burn time (which means you get to mitigate damage sooner by moving out of the way / rolling damage) makes the DPS of both weapon groups the same. On some their is a ~10% bonus to clan. Which doesn't make up for the fact that your target has shot and disappeared while you are still shooting.

Edited by Lugh, 14 August 2015 - 04:08 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Lugh, on 14 August 2015 - 04:07 AM, said:

Mostly wrong.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

Check it again. The shorter IS burn time (which means you get to mitigate damage sooner by moving out of the way / rolling damage) makes the DPS of both weapon groups the same. On some their is a ~10% bonus to clan. Which doesn't make up for the fact that your target has shot and disappeared while you are still shooting.

Not wrong. Divide damage by duration, then come back to me.

ggclothes

[Yokaiko]

Yeonne Greene, on 14 August 2015 - 05:40 AM, said:

Not wrong. Divide damage by duration, then come back to me.

ggclothes

no really, if you can twist like at all, the IS lasers are a huge boon.

[Lugh]

Yeonne Greene, on 14 August 2015 - 05:40 AM, said:

Not wrong. Divide damage by duration, then come back to me.

ggclothes

That's what that table does, (ignoring spurious remarks about mental aptitude), the damage values on the whole range from .15 to .45 DPS difference, with a couple of outliers. What YOU and most the other IS pilots who think IS is so UP end up doing, is mistaking the shorter burn time as NOT giving you a huge advantage.

When your dps is applied in .5 seconds faster time, that is .5 seconds that you are mitigating incoming fire, i.e. backing to cover and NOT getting shot.

But, that little point never seems to sink in, the better IS pilots get it...

[Yokaiko]

Lugh, on 14 August 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

That's what that table does, (ignoring spurious remarks about mental aptitude), the damage values on the whole range from .15 to .45 DPS difference, with a couple of outliers. What YOU and most the other IS pilots who think IS is so UP end up doing, is mistaking the shorter burn time as NOT giving you a huge advantage.

When your dps is applied in .5 seconds faster time, that is .5 seconds that you are mitigating incoming fire, i.e. backing to cover and NOT getting shot.

But, that little point never seems to sink in, the better IS pilots get it...

Now factor in 15-30% heat and duration quirks.

[LordMelvin]

Yokaiko, on 14 August 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

I got a better idea

1) change damage values to reflect the increased firing rates (vice a 10 second turn)
2) change heat values by the same standard
3) Truedubs
4) kill pin point convergence for any weapons that aren't arm mounted mechs WITH lower actuators, as in none, it fires in a straight line with regards to its placement from the retical
5) increase ammo counts to reflect the new armor values (they really need x2,5 with both structure and armor being doubled
6) retical sway in proportion to speed moved (allow TCs to reduce this)
7) Get rid of quirk
8) remove ghost heat.
9) 10 v 12 and un-nerf the damned clans


This this kills poinpoint for most mechs (barring maybe Whales and certain Highlanders that have other issues) reduces alpha damage AND DPS to table top levels (the mechs are currently doing over 3 times the table top damage against double armor) and lowers the heat so that stock builds may actually function. in addition you need to shoot more to kill a mech (raises TTK) both by virtue of lower alphas AND reduced accuracy.

For example a stock Awesome -8Q wasn't a hot mech in table top by virtue of its 28 SHS, if you fired all three in a turn you only gained 2 heat on the heat scale (assuming you weren't moving and no enviromental negative), because the heat phase was heat generated minus heatsinks, that means you could light into someone 4 turns straight before you started getting into heat issues, at a full run

Players have been clamoring for a TT style heat scale (lower cap, higher dissipation) forever, but PGI probably won't since they're scared of "heat neutral builds". It's the same reason that no matter how many DHS you fit, a single medium laser or AC/2 fired continuously will eventually shut you down.

[oneproduct]

LordMelvin, on 14 August 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

Players have been clamoring for a TT style heat scale (lower cap, higher dissipation) forever, but PGI probably won't since they're scared of "heat neutral builds". It's the same reason that no matter how many DHS you fit, a single medium laser or AC/2 fired continuously will eventually shut you down.

It takes 10 SHS to make a single ML heat neutral, which means that since every mech must bring at least 10 SHS, that you can't shut down from firing a single ML (ignoring ambient temperature of maps, which alters the efficiency of cooling). But anyways, that doesn't matter, just me poking fun.

But generally speaking, why would it be unacceptable for a given number of weapons fired continuously to cause you to shut down? Every weapon has a damage/heat value. In TT you might not shutdown because the firing time of weapons is a lot lower, e.g. a ML and AC5 each only shoot once per round, so they both do 5 damage per round. However with MWO being realtime, the AC5 has 3 DPS and the ML has 1.28 DPS.

If an ML is causing you to shutdown, it's because it's providing the amount of damage it offers for the heat that you're letting it use up. You're not wasting or losing heat or anything. Laser vomit is already too powerful. Increasing heat dissipation increases the DPS of lasers and reduces how much burst they do. I honestly feel that both their DPS and their burst need to go down and that increasing DPS should be done with low heat alternatives like SRMs and ballistics. Otherwise if lasers can give such good DPS for low weight, there's little incentive to bring anything else.

Edited by oneproduct, 14 August 2015 - 08:50 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Yokaiko, on 14 August 2015 - 05:41 AM, said:

no really, if you can twist like at all, the IS lasers are a huge boon.

Lugh, on 14 August 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

That's what that table does, (ignoring spurious remarks about mental aptitude), the damage values on the whole range from .15 to .45 DPS difference, with a couple of outliers. What YOU and most the other IS pilots who think IS is so UP end up doing, is mistaking the shorter burn time as NOT giving you a huge advantage.

When your dps is applied in .5 seconds faster time, that is .5 seconds that you are mitigating incoming fire, i.e. backing to cover and NOT getting shot.

But, that little point never seems to sink in, the better IS pilots get it...

That table does nothing of the sort. What that table does is divide damage by the sum of duration and cool-down to display maximum cyclical DPS. If you just divide by duration, you'll find that only two Inner Sphere lasers do more damage per second of burn (In Smurfy terms, that would be Damage per Duration or DPD) than their Clan Counterparts: Medium Pulse and Large Pulse. Both of those are saddled with some rather stiff penalties in range and weight.

In practical terms, that means you do more damage to a target in 0.9 seconds with C-ER Medium Lasers than an Inner Sphere 'Mech using the same number of Medium lasers. Nothing is compelling you to face-stare for all 1.15 seconds, and knowing when to trade your armor to do so is what separates the wheat from the chaff.

And just to cut you off before you think about bringing them up, quirks both ways are band-aid fixes for inherently borked equipment that only serve to muddy the waters even more. If we are to discuss what to do with the game, the quirks are irrelevant.

Yokaiko, on 14 August 2015 - 05:41 AM, said:

no really, if you can twist like at all, the IS lasers are a huge boon.

See above.