55 replies to this topic

[ApolloKaras]

Pjwned, on 18 August 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

Still a good reference to come back to whenever somebody says that SHS are somehow not worthless.

Anyone that is under the illusion that they are useful needs their head examined.

[Almond Brown]

El Bandito, on 17 August 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

It is not customization if it is mandatory. Without DHS, most mechs simply cannot compete.

And who exactly are these SHS built Mechs competing against? The OP spec'd, Comps need them to complete. Do Comps suddenly have C-Bill issues?

If we can build 1 Mech with SHS's, and if can be competitive, does that resolve the issue or does "every" Mech (or 95%) somehow need to be competitive when using SHS's?

How many Champs/Trials are still still running SHS's stick?

DarthRevis, on 17 August 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

Along with a cost cut i would like to be able to co back and forth if i pleased without it costing anymore once i upgraded to DHS.

Its silly to charge me to go back to stock.....just dumb. On Endo and Ferro as well but this is a minor gripe...

DHS for all mechs should be the norm right now....When you buy the mech why dont they just let you choose DHS? ENDO? FERRO? and apply it to the cost.

Depending on where one lives, that is like telling the Garage that changing from Winter to Summer tires shouldn't cost you anything, because I own both and their both just Tires right?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Tell your techs that you will pay them to change out heat sinkd once they fix the monitors in the cockpit of all your mechs...and have them address the toxic fumes wafting up from the drop ship floor while their at it.

[Almond Brown]

In retrospect, PGI should have made the upgrade cost 15 times more from day one. That way, way more Mechs would have to run SHS longer, thus reducing the ability for many to carry such heavy Alpha load-outs out of the gate for a mere 1.5 mill c-bills, due to lack of space taken up by all those SHS's.

Regardless, if 1.5mill is a ball buster for anyone, god forbid they start to look at the cost of unlocking Modules. They are also noted as essential equipment by many.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Almond Brown, on 18 August 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

In retrospect, PGI should have made the upgrade cost 15 times more from day one. That way, way more Mechs would have to run SHS longer, thus reducing the ability for many to carry such heavy Alpha load-outs out of the gate for a mere 1.5 mill c-bills, due to lack of space taken up by all those SHS's.

Regardless, if 1.5mill is a ball buster for anyone, god forbid they start to look at the cost of unlocking Modules. They are also noted as essential equipment by many.

That's a P2W approach. The more expensive the upgrade, the bigger divide between paying players and free players.

With my mech packs (some coming with DHS equipped) and my 30% C-Bill boosted mechs and Premium Time, I'm going to hit 15mil way quicker than a new player with no cash struggling to scrounge C-Bills for an engine change or some weapons. Heck, if my mech pack mech came equipped with DHS, then I paid real money for a mech that out performs when free players have to wait months to buy it for c-bills. Plus, if the C-Bill price of DHS is reflected in the mech chassis, they may never earn enough the free way.

I'll admit that occasionally I forget how hard it can be to earn cash without paid ****. If a new player (even playing a month) can't get a mech close to performing at the same level a veteran has been able to put together (especially a paying veteran), then that just plain isn't fair when it comes to the spirit of F2P.

C-Bill price hikes are not the answer. It only widens the gap between players that have and players that want and only adds to frustration.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 18 August 2015 - 08:52 AM.

[ApolloKaras]

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 August 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

That's a P2W approach. The more expensive the upgrade, the bigger divide between paying players and free players.

With my mech packs (some coming with DHS equipped) and my 30% C-Bill boosted mechs and Premium Time, I'm going to hit 15mil way quicker than a new player with no cash struggling to scrounge C-Bills for an engine change or some weapons.

I'll admit that occasionally I forget how hard it can be to earn cash without paid ****. If a new player (even playing a month) can't get a mech close to performing at the same level a veteran has been able to put together (especially a paying veteran), then that just plain isn't fair when it comes to the spirit of F2P.

C-Bill price hikes are not the answer. Not only widens the gap between players that have and players that want and only adds to frustration.

I believe it was Koniving (I can't find the post), suggested to give the Single heat sink a slight capacity buff to help that very aspect. Could fire for longer - but it would take you longer to cool off.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Saxie, on 18 August 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

I believe it was Koniving (I can't find the post), suggested to give the Single heat sink a slight capacity buff to help that very aspect. Could fire for longer - but it would take you longer to cool off.

Bummer would be it still kills DPS. More weapons could be fired initially, but you wouldn't be able to fire for a while :/. I've played light mechs where once I hit around 90% heat saturation, it takes FOREVER for it to drop enough for me to fire again. That waiting game is painful and sometimes frustrating (especially when being chased and you can't fire back).

I'm just not a huge fan of that. I'd honestly maybe want it the other way. SHS won't have the capacity of their bigger DHS brothers, but cool faster (especially in water). Then maybe I can't fire much more than small groups or chain fire, but I'll be constantly applying damage of some sort.

Either way, a trick to balance.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 18 August 2015 - 08:58 AM.

[Yellonet]

Fleeb the Mad, on 17 August 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

Agreed. The biggest boon DHS offers is not the heatsinks themselves, it's the doubled engine dissipation. Ten tons of essentially free SHS-equivalent is the biggest upgrade benefit bar none.

All of the others have some sort of drawback. Endo and Ferro take crits. Artemis takes crits and tonnage. It's only a very rare mech that actually has to make a sacrifice to carry DHS. Even so, it usually comes down to taking DHS or not being able to take Ferro in addition to Endo. That one's a no-brainer.

Let there be a reason to take SHS on IS mechs. Clan doubles are hax as it is.

Exactly, most of the time when upgrading to DHS you get better cooling even without any DHS outside the engine than you did with all your SHS in place.
The intended balance between DHS and SHS is space vs cooling capacity, but as the engine sinks come without taking any extra space this balance is almost completely nullified.
One way to re-establish the balance would be to make engine DHS have the same or only slightly better total cooling than the engine SHS, then you would likely be better off with SHS if you have weight to spare and better off with DHS if you have room to spare.

[Almond Brown]

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 August 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

That's a P2W approach. The more expensive the upgrade, the bigger divide between paying players and free players.

With my mech packs (some coming with DHS equipped) and my 30% C-Bill boosted mechs and Premium Time, I'm going to hit 15mil way quicker than a new player with no cash struggling to scrounge C-Bills for an engine change or some weapons. Heck, if my mech pack mech came equipped with DHS, then I paid real money for a mech that out performs when free players have to wait months to buy it for c-bills. Plus, if the C-Bill price of DHS is reflected in the mech chassis, they may never earn enough the free way.

I'll admit that occasionally I forget how hard it can be to earn cash without paid ****. If a new player (even playing a month) can't get a mech close to performing at the same level a veteran has been able to put together (especially a paying veteran), then that just plain isn't fair when it comes to the spirit of F2P.

C-Bill price hikes are not the answer. It only widens the gap between players that have and players that want and only adds to frustration.

Well not now, but from Day 1. F2P is exactly that. Play for Free or Pay to save time. Cost of things is meaningless as everyone had to start fresh. Some paid, many played...

A new player can never catch a veteran, that is just the way of things. How can any new player catch a 2.5 year Vet and making it so they can suddenly, screws over said Vets who slogged their way and expect the new players to do the same.

Every game like this is the same way. You start on the ground floor and work up. Don't show up and expect to get the "best" handed to you ffs. Best thing is to learn how to drive that first Mech before worrying about how much Alpha you can get on that Big expensive Bruiser you have your eye on.

Edited by Almond Brown, 18 August 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

One of the worst idea possible, you want those double heat sinks, you have had to always pay for them, why should we cater to poor IS who obviosuly having a whinge i'm so poor, i need a crutch.

Note that I said nothing about free DHS. I said free conversion between DHS/SHS. You'd still have to buy the DHS to install.

And if that drops the price on Clan designs a bit, I'd be happy about that, too.

Quote

Every game like this is the same way. You start on the ground floor and work up.

At this point,SHS is like being buried six feet below the basement. Heck, we have an entire tech tree that doesn't even HAVE SHS as an option.

Edited by wanderer, 18 August 2015 - 10:26 AM.

[Dodger79]

Almond Brown, on 18 August 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

Depending on where one lives, that is like telling the Garage that changing from Winter to Summer tires shouldn't cost you anything, because I own both and their both just Tires right?

Well, if you're that kind of "real world logics in video games"-enthusiast i suggest you never play again a single match of MWO after you died in one. Simply because in real life there is no restart/respawn, too. Just as your mechanic does not change your tires for free.

But we do not have do go as far as never playing again after an ingame-death. You say the costs for changing upgrades are ok because in the real world mechanics want their money, too? Well, then how does it work that they fix all of my over 100 Mechs completely for free every single time i wrecked them in a match? Or why do they change the engine, which is a nuclear device with a difficult kind of handling i suppose, for free but not a frigging heatsink?

So, pls, don't argue with these kinds of arguments when talking of a videogame. Especially one where everything else from repair & rearm to a complete overhaul of the engine and weapon systems is free...

[Almond Brown]

Dodger79, on 18 August 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

Well, if you're that kind of "real world logics in video games"-enthusiast i suggest you never play again a single match of MWO after you died in one. Simply because in real life there is no restart/respawn, too. Just as your mechanic does not change your tires for free.

But we do not have do go as far as never playing again after an ingame-death. You say the costs for changing upgrades are ok because in the real world mechanics want their money, too? Well, then how does it work that they fix all of my over 100 Mechs completely for free every single time i wrecked them in a match? Or why do they change the engine, which is a nuclear device with a difficult kind of handling i suppose, for free but not a frigging heatsink?

So, pls, don't argue with these kinds of arguments when talking of a videogame. Especially one where everything else from repair & rearm to a complete overhaul of the engine and weapon systems is free...

And in the same vein, whining about a one time 1.5 mill c-bill investment for DHS's is brutally stupid when you consider the cost of a Module. (oh right, Modules are end game content, right!)

So should new players get cheap Modules too just because they are "expensive"? They are in fact available immediately upon purchase of that first chassis.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Almond Brown, on 18 August 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

Well not now, but from Day 1. F2P is exactly that. Play for Free or Pay to save time. Cost of things is meaningless as everyone had to start fresh. Some paid, many played...

A new player can never catch a veteran, that is just the way of things. How can any new player catch a 2.5 year Vet and making it so they can suddenly, screws over said Vets who slogged their way and expect the new players to do the same.

Every game like this is the same way. You start on the ground floor and work up. Don't show up and expect to get the "best" handed to you ffs. Best thing is to learn how to drive that first Mech before worrying about how much Alpha you can get on that Big expensive Bruiser you have your eye on.

I think your missing the point though.

Making the cost of reasonable performance higher doesn't discourage people from using it. What it does though is create a bigger divide between people who pay and people who don't. The larger that divide, the more crucial spending real money becomes. The more crucial it becomes to spend real money, the more the game can be considered P2W.

I've bought enough packages in this game that I had 161 days Premium time built up and god knows how many C-Bill boosted mechs in each class. I can hunker down, control my spending, and earn that super expensive DHS upgrade within maybe a bit over a week. A new player with none of those bonuses may have to grind months to earn just an upgrade for one chassis, and a mandatory upgrade at that.

It's too unreasonable to expect that from new players with one mech to their account (probably a medium or light) to spend month+ of overheating to earn a module a paying player got right away.

F2P games are built off of pay for convienence and I get that (a long with most of us), but that holds true within reason. You drag that grind out too long, and no one is sticking around.

Trust me, it's not a good idea.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Almond Brown, on 18 August 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

And in the same vein, whining about a one time 1.5 mill c-bill investment for DHS's is brutally stupid when you consider the cost of a Module. (oh right, Modules are end game content, right!)

So should new players get cheap Modules too just because they are "expensive"? They are in fact available immediately upon purchase of that first chassis.

A module is not a crucial item. It helps, but it isn't DHS.

Secondly, your proposing DHS be 15x more expensive. That, like I'm trying to point out, is game breaking especially for how mandatory it is and how hard it is to grind for new/free players. Modules are great, but they aren't DHS crucial.

[Dodger79]

Almond Brown, on 18 August 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

And in the same vein, whining about a one time 1.5 mill c-bill investment for DHS's is brutally stupid when you consider the cost of a Module. (oh right, Modules are end game content, right!)

So should new players get cheap Modules too just because they are "expensive"? They are in fact available immediately upon purchase of that first chassis.

You know what brutally stupid is? That's if someone is complaining that others are whining about a one time cost when in reality these people are complaining that they have to pay for this up- and downgrade every single time when they want to fit the same Mech differently. Do you see the difference between "only once" and "a lot of times"? Can you understand it?

And what the f+ck do modules have to with this? In fact, modules ARE a onetime-investment, just because after i bought them i can switch them for free between all of my Mechs.

[Kmieciu]

wanderer, on 18 August 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

And if that drops the price on Clan designs a bit, I'd be happy about that, too.

It won't.
Because DHS, Endo & Ferro upgrade is not included in a Clan mech price.
Many players don't realize this, but clan mechs are cheaper than IS mechs.
SCR-PRIME costs 11,1 million C-Bills
SHD-2D2 costs 4.3 million C-Bills. A bargain right?
But add the cost of DHS, Endo, Ferro and XL330 and it the inferior IS tech suddenly costs 12,3 million C-Bills

Stock IS mechs are a noob trap. Always been. 90% need DHS and Endo upgrade before they leave the hangar.
Thank heavens for the upgraded Trial/Champion mechs. New players don't have to grind using SHS anymore, like I did in open beta.

In my opinion, there should be an option to buy the champion loadouts with c-bills, without the XP bonus but also without having to pay for upgrades. Just like clan mechs.

Edited by Kmieciu, 18 August 2015 - 10:54 AM.