80 replies to this topic

[Bob Jenkins]

MaxFool, on 19 August 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

The important part is that higher rewards fix won't make games any better. Better team waltzes into generators and omega, takes them effortlessly, timid defenders camp in their spawn and lets them do that. Who wants games like that?

Oh, I agree with you, because then the losers get nothing. I solo/pug a lot in CW, even if my team loses 48-28 I still make a crapload of cbills and loyalty points, which is why I love CW. If they try to introduce PSR into CW they will need to minimize the number of planets and change the current system dramatically. Not a large enough player population.

[Andan]

They just need to make the in game objectives worth more than the killing/assisting in killing of mechs. This pertains to both CW and group/solo drops.

This game rewards the kill. This is the major flaw in any other game mode in this game. No matter what modes they implement or create it all boils down to C-Bill/XP rewards. The majority of us can agree that the rewards promote the Skirmish gameplay in any gamemode.

Until they reward players more for objectives, in those objective based modes, than of course the player will ignore them.

[Chocowolf Sradac]

I think the same problem persists in regular drops as well where the payout and points are much more rewarding to fight and kill mechs then what the objectives are which is really sad

I honestly do think pgi does need to rethink the system to encourage players to go after objectives in an objective based game then going for what's going to reward better.

As I mentioned before if you got pushed back to your spawn then chances are you already lost the battle it's been rare to see teams make an effective comeback from that.

[50 50]

Can I ask you guys:

Do you find that it is typically the attacking team once they have pushed into the base and camp the defender drop zones?
Or is it more commonly the defenders who push out of the base to camp the attacker's drop zones?

[Onionbird]

Either way, if the attacking/defending team far outclasses their opponents, they generally stop just shy of where the deathstar dropships can core them out (which is usually 3-4 grid sections awayaway) and wait for the other team to come out of their spawns. Which they don't, so the game takes 25-30 minutes every time instead of being a quick roll. But it makes the rollees think they're better because they lost 48-15 instead of 48-3, even if 10 of those kills were from dropships cause the attackers got bored.

Edited by Onionbird, 24 August 2015 - 11:07 AM.

[Koniks]

They should bring back the light rush while they're at it. We don't have a metagame. We almost had one with light rushes.

Expect lights? Bring streaks. Expect streaks? Bring direct fire. Expect direct fire? Bring lights.

And the circle of violence continues.

[50 50]

So team effectiveness/willingness aside, it's still a multi part problem which then needs a multi part solution.

1. The primary objective of defending/disable Omega needs to have a 'failure to complete' event.

In my mind, this should be no more drops for the team that failed.
Regardless of what happens after that, failure to complete the objective means a failure for the mission and therefore less rewards.
This also requires changing the match timer to be an objective timer and having the match end when there are no more mechs on the 'defeated' side.

2. Drop points need to have a capture function, like conquest resource points.

This means that taking the drop zones prevents further drops in that location for that team turning what is currently considered a 'griefing' tactic into a more legitimate tactic with meaning and purpose.
This requires the maps be changed so that the drop zones are spread out more.
It also needs some small changes to the drops so mechs are automatically routed to an available location and some tweaks to the capture functionality and conditions for when it can be done.

3. The maps need some adjustments to allow flanking options.

This is to allow different tactics to develop so that when a team is struggling/failing to breach or defend the gates there is the possibility of trying something else to take the advantage.

4. Counter Attack/Hold Ground modes should be merged into the existing Invasion mode as a dynamic extension of the battle.

This is to allow for the scenario where one team has eliminated the other but has failed the objective.
Introducing a new wave of players to 'clear the map' of any of the remaining enemy provides closure to the scenario in an appropriate context.

[multisoul]

there are many IS cowardly pilots and too many are using trials. making drop zones stronger means instead of winning to have to wait for the last suckers at drop zone to finally start moving. like having 20 ppl waiting for the 4 biggest cowards in the team

[Apnu]

The spawn location should move. There are 3 spawn locations, one for each lance. If the majority of enemy mechs are at one location, the drop ships should relocate to another location.

[zortesh]

I think they should fix this by doing two things.

1: make dropships destroy-able.
2: add 5-6 autocannons plus some lrms to the dropships.(give the autocannons terribad aim, or make them not lead targets atall.)

Then camping under dropship cover becomes extremely dangerous, might lose a whole dropship and every mech on it, or alternatively making it so mechs on say destroyed dropship alpha then have to wait for beta to drop off betas mechs, and then drop off alphas mechs 30 seconds later.

only problem i see is all sniper teams greifing everyone by sniping down dropships at 1k.

None the less god dammit i wanna to shoot down a dropship!

[MaxFool]

zortesh, on 26 August 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:

None the less god dammit i wanna to shoot down a dropship!

The few people who still see problems in attackers camping defenders spawn complain about not given a chance to fight back, and your solution is killing them by shooting down dropship? Yes, that will fix it for sure.

Edited by MaxFool, 26 August 2015 - 09:13 AM.

[zortesh]

MaxFool, on 26 August 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

The few people who still see problems in attackers camping defenders spawn complain about not given a chance to fight back, and your solution is killing them by shooting down dropship? Yes, that will fix it for sure.

Honestly if defenders are bad enough to get spawn camped they never stood a chance in the first place and ending the match faster is probably less painful for them.

besides I also suggested massively upping the dropships weaponry, and even having a dropship as a viable, and much much more valuable target would reduce the shots going at any given mech being landed atm.

I mostly see people getting farmed at drop-points becuase they camped and hid in a droppoint, and once your forced to roll into a droppoint and massacre everyone in a brawl.. why leave? theres really no point.. dropships hurt but who cares, you do asd much damage as you can, and then return with a fresh wave to stomp them again.

in short, people who still get spawn camped don't need more defenses, they need to actully shoot at there opponents.

[MaxFool]

zortesh, on 26 August 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

Honestly if defenders are bad enough to get spawn camped they never stood a chance in the first place and ending the match faster is probably less painful for them.

...

in short, people who still get spawn camped don't need more defenses, they need to actully shoot at there opponents.

Yes, I totally agree. But your fix won't do anything make them do that, and it will just make them cry out more.

[Commander A9]

By moving the drop zones into remote areas isolated from the main battle areas on a given map and accessible by narrow passes, PGI has effectively doomed any defending team to a Thermopylae-styled death. The moment one guy pokes his head out to exit his drop zone, he's massacred by the opposing force which occupies his base.

While the attacker may not be camping right on top of the DZ, the attacker is trapping the defender in his own deployment area by blocking off his exit.

In short, PGI made camping that much easier by confining all drop zones to one spot.

And they've also tried to make generator-rushing more difficult by putting them in enclosed cases...but in short, that hasn't stopped the generator-rushes, which are still just as viable as they've always been.

Either way, it's going to happen no matter what you do, and quite frankly, it's happened since the Vietnam War.

Perhaps some solutions are to push out together as one solid force, focus fire, call commands, coordinate maneuvers, and also flank around the enemy.

Edited by Commander A9, 26 August 2015 - 03:17 PM.

[AlphaToaster]

Also, when fighting from a drop zone, and in cw in general because of map terrain, LRMS are really bad.

So you have a bottleneck, and people are peeking. There's not enough time to get a good lock, plus the attackers get to be clumped under ECM.

So plan for the worst when dropping in CW. Bring direct fire support mechs that move at a decent speed UNTIL the tactics to avoid the spawn camp are learned/figured out, then go back to trying new stuff.

The speed thing is important. The further the fight is away from the drop zone the better. Does no good to walk back @ 60kph to be the last one alive vs the attacking wave.

Bring heavier mechs for the first wave because mainly if that first wave gets trashed, it's quite possibly the entire game at stake. There may never be another chance that game for a standup fight outside the drop zone, so fight like the match depends on it. (psst - In most games it does.)

[Chocowolf Sradac]

I would agree making the dropships killable will not solve the camping problem and will only further encourage it

the problem will still remain if you have the drop locations movable as with the way the game is presently designed

Edited by Chocowolf, 26 August 2015 - 05:18 PM.

[50 50]

Being able to shoot down the dropships would be pretty amazing and would introduce extra dynamics into the game.
You would want some sort of emergency deployment of ay mechs that were being carried at the time so it's not an instant death scenario for any of those players.
It would be highly likely that the only chance to destroy them would be while they are dropping the mechs or on departure.
I had a few thoughts re the drop ships in this post:
http://mwomercs.com/...1916-dropships/

However, additional interactions with the dropships does not answer the question about how to deal with spawn camping.
Spawn camping is more of an issue with players being sent like sacrificial lambs to the kebab shop (bonus points if you recognise the quote!) once their positions have become overrun and not having any options or functions in the battle that allow for this scenario.

Hence: if the objective is lost.
Your side can no longer drop into the match, hence no more sacrificial lambs.
You get to mop up any survivors, but will not be forced into the line of fire simply because you have left over mechs in your drop deck.

And: if the positions (drop zones) are overrun.
No more drops in to that location/s.... for the same reason.
Having alternate drop locations in other areas (ie. spread them out) becomes necessary, but it makes them a tactical objective for both sides.

Take away the part that is considered the griefing aspect by providing proper end game conditions and options.

[Biclor Moban]

How about the dropships and the Orbital Cannon have 2 ECM each one in disrupt and one in counter.

Several things would happen then.

You could target enemy mechs as you come in to be dropped and they wouldn't be able to target you, ie. no big red square that people just shoot in the center of.

As the enemy would near the Cannon they would be targetable even if they had ECM, you and the cannon would not be.

Direct fire weapons would still work but they wouldn't be able to follow you before you came into view.

Once the dropships were gone you would lose your cover so getting out of the drop zone and to the Cannon would be all the more important and may reduce camping in the dropzone.

Doesn't it make sense that a dropship and the Cannon would have ECM and ECM better than ours. Maybe the dropship ecm range would be 180m and the Cannon would have a range of 220m. Our ecm will soon be 90m so...

ECM can't directly kill you so thats a plus.

[gloowa]

I didn't read all 3 pages, but here are my thoughs:

1) Dropships are ******** right now. I got cored out from 100% to dead in 5 seconds while standing at omega trying to kill it on Vitric. Happens on some other maps as well - the range is so big you are not able to safely engage the objectives.

2) Above would be fine, IF the dropships didn't have perfect CT accuracy.

3) Even with all this ********, dropships have not stopped one spawncamp from happening. ever.

4) The dropzone fortress encourages bad players to play bad by staying in it, thinking they are safe there.

5) The dropzone fortress has significant impact ONLY in well-balanced matches on counter attack, where the side that gains a kill lead just runs back to them and secures a win that way. And in the balanced matches the dropships should not have any impact, right?

6) Points 1 to 5 were all predicted on forums before the change was implemented.

7) The objectives were moved closer to omega to stop light rushes. Good job. Now we have assault-heavy rushes, where the attacker team is able to kill all 4 targets in 2 waves, faster than the defending team is able to core out the attackers. (not on every map).

8) Point 7 was predicted on forums before the change was implemented.

9) My personal thoughts on solutions:
- Remove the dropship ability to hit CT 100% of the time, while keeping the range.
- Move 2 gens away from omega, while keepin one close
- most importantly: no more than 4~6 pugs per drop. At least 6 people need to be in groups.
- Prevent people from playing CW for a week (or a month.... or a year <dreams>) if any of following is satisfied:
a ) consistent (5+ matches in a row) damage below 1k on a winning team.
b ) consistent (5+ matches in a row) damage below 800dmg on a loosing team.
c ) consistent (5+ matches in a row) disconnects before losing all mechs
d ) dropped a trial mech

10) Perhaps change the o-gens into conquest-like capture targets, with having 2 would make omega damageable but it would take only 30~50% of the damage, while having all 3 would make it 100% vulnerable?

Edited by gloowa, 27 August 2015 - 05:08 AM.

[nehebkau]

I always thought that there should be some type of count down timer for the value (cbills and loyalty pts) of a victory (for attackers) and a count-up timer for the value of a successful defense. You would have to try to figure out a way to have it limit just gen-rushing the objectives in the first minute and defenders just hiding in the spawn on defense none the less -- but some timer that would provide more cbills and loyalty for having done the objectives in a timely matter. I'm sure the brain-trust here could figure out some decent way to do that.