384 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 17 August 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

oh, I do. But I expect the opposite,LRM players to wail and gnadh their teeth because they can't just dominate in the underhive anymore.

No, they'll be complaining about ECM (to some degree, they are right). That's the first related thing to happen and probably how difficult it is to get a lock vs competing options.

Although, those tears would be sweet.

Quote

I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, though. I'm still betting on the Great Rebalance coming with a major mechanical change, and THAT will be the forum s***storm that will totally drown out LRM issues

I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Sweet.

And with the PSR, I think it would be best to keep those hidden for a period of time, so that the devs can collect data and feedback on how the changes influnce matches.

Then afterwards, once players have had a good number of matches with PSR, to then have the suggested voting and so on with how to make such data available.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 17 August 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 August 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

Yeah but then when they fight Lords they will get wrecked and move back to the underhive from wince they came.

Yes, but they would bounce what would be considered "limbo" or as we used to know it as "Elo Hell".

They would probably end up between Tier 3+4 (3 being average, 4 being above average).

More likely you'll see them ask for LRM buffs, and less likely to see "I'll stop using LRMs".

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 17 August 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

The action of farming is to accumulate as much damage in many different ways so you collect a bigger payday in MWO. It's really as simple as that.

The problem is that the "farmers" in this instance are the good players.. because they will be efficient+proficient at getting the scores consistently, compared to other types of "farmers" (including the fast-cappers, Conquest waiting, poke everyone for 12 assists).

is this a problem? Why? If you regularly are getting disproportionately large paydays, you ought to be playing against tougher opposition.

Quote

LRMs rack up the kinds of damage that would overinflate their "value" and as a consequence will be fighting more Lords than "people at their level".

There will be a certain faction that will be vastly overvalued, and possibly a sub-faction that would be undervalued. So.. it will happen based on the criterion posted.

yeah, though we don't know which yet, not till people figure out the weighting.

It depends heavily on how they weight damage done. Clearly, by the post above they are aware that raw damage isn't a very good metric. I doubt they'll weight things well, of course.

It'd be amusing if players sporting poor weapons (LRM's, LBX) or being grossly inaccurate with others (lasers etc) where pushed up tiers fast.

Incidentally, that there is the crux of a lot of posts I made back in the day about Elo vs a scoring system like this: if its not well balanced (and I don't even know how you'd do a good job balancing it) it may end up working "backwards".

But... As to farmers, I'm not seeing a problem.

Edited by Wintersdark, 17 August 2015 - 02:11 PM.

[Votanin FleshRender]

Will we still have the same Tier level for each weight class, like it was for elo?

As long as PGI is making a change, any ranking system really should be assigned for every mech chassis. Playing a stormcrow and doing well, then switching to a Vindicator is painful....

[Warchild Corsair]

The new system looks interesting - I am willing to give it a try. Cannot be worse then ELO, can it?

That said I would like to view it privately on my profile page. Pretty please, PGI?

[RustyBolts]

I know you said you would not post our Tier publically. For now, but we will know our Tier level?

How will groups be determined? Average of all Tiers?

[bad arcade kitty]

are you kidding?

still no ach nerfs!

still no ecm nerfs/bap buffs!

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 17 August 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

is this a problem? Why? If you regularly are getting disproportionately large paydays, you ought to be playing against tougher opposition.

It's not necessarily a problem, but I'm pointing out what section of the playerbase this favors.

What I suspect will be affected is Lights indirectly, or bad games (obviously) that move an Elite player into a lower tier.

Lights do not actually achieve the same scoreability than the rest, since the majority of rewards are damage based. It doesn't mean they can't have a high Match Score.. but it would actually require a special player (probably someone from EmP and elsewhere) to maintain it.

That's just my projection on the matter.

Quote

yeah, though we don't know which yet, not till people figure out the weighting.

It depends heavily on how they weight damage done. Clearly, by the post above they are aware that raw damage isn't a very good metric. I doubt they'll weight things well, of course.

It'd be amusing if players sporting poor weapons (LRM's, LBX) or being grossly inaccurate with others (lasers etc) where pushed up tiers fast.

Incidentally, that there is the crux of a lot of posts I made back in the day about Elo vs a scoring system like this: if its not well balanced (and I don't even know how you'd do a good job balancing it) it may end up working "backwards".

But... As to farmers, I'm not seeing a problem.

Bad weapons will artificially inflate damage scores... which will move them up a tier or 2 and put them in really bad situations long term, (You know the LBX joke? You'll see more "LBX sucks threads" this time.)

The "farmers" as far as I'm concerned are really just the best players... for the lack of a better term.. are "farming" other players more effectively than anything else (aka more roflstomps when stacked obviously).

I don't have a problem necessarily.. but understand that's what they will be under the new system. It may make solo "interesting", but then again, solo+group should never use the same (shared) values in the first place....

[IdolElite]

I look forward to the new PSR system. Was this system tested in-house? If so what were the results? I am wondering how dramatic a difference it will make.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

bad arcade kitty, on 17 August 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

are you kidding?

still no ach nerfs!

still no ecm nerfs/bap buffs!

Why? The Arctic Cheetah is fine. Just because the Gargoyle and the Executioner are bad doesn't mean the Cheetah is OP. Its just lucky not to be filled with useless stuff. Buff the terribads and leave the "okay" mechs alone.

[aniviron]

bad arcade kitty, on 17 August 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

are you kidding?

still no ach nerfs!

still no ecm nerfs/bap buffs!

Don't expect any ACH nerfs until it is about to come out for CB. Then it will get brought back into line.

[Desintegrator]

The good old ELO will retire !?

How can this happen. I had so many great games which score 12: 1 or 1:12 kills, which prove that this system works fine for 3 years now....

I never believe that this could happen !
But thanks. Seems that somebody made some thoughts about this.

[bad arcade kitty]

performance introduced into the mm rating means a huge hit for light pilots and generally supportish builds, also to the capping, since those earn little score despite significantly increasing the win chance

that's like the most stupid mistake one can do designing mm

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 17 August 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

Lights do not actually achieve the same scoreability than the rest, since the majority of rewards are damage based. It doesn't mean they can't have a high Match Score.. but it would actually require a special player (probably someone from EmP and elsewhere) to maintain it.

That's just my projection on the matter.
....

They do specifically address this in the patch notes, though - its not using match score, and is note mostly weighted on damage. They address scouting etc as well.

Will it work out? That's another matter. But at least they're coming out of the gate attempting to address these issues rather than suddenly being surprised by the obvious.

[bad arcade kitty]

Desintegrator, on 17 August 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

The good old ELO will retire !?

How can this happen. I had so many great games which score 12: 1 or 1:12 kills, which prove that this system works fine for 3 years now....

I never believe that this could happen !
But thanks. Seems that somebody made some thoughts about this.

you will have them anyway, mind you

Wintersdark, on 17 August 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

They do specifically address this in the patch notes, though - its not using match score, and is note mostly weighted on damage. They address scouting etc as well.

Will it work out? That's another matter. But at least they're coming out of the gate attempting to address these issues rather than suddenly being surprised by the obvious.

it's even more silly
why do they think their hidden score is more accurate than the visible one
why not to change the visible one then too?

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 17 August 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

They do specifically address this in the patch notes, though - its not using match score, and is note mostly weighted on damage. They address scouting etc as well.

Will it work out? That's another matter. But at least they're coming out of the gate attempting to address these issues rather than suddenly being surprised by the obvious.

Lemme highlight the key words written in the post.

Quote

The Match Score displayed at the End of Round screen is now the primary metric that will determine a player’s skill rating.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 August 2015 - 02:37 PM.

[spectralthundr]

Deathlike, on 17 August 2015 - 01:57 PM, said:

The QQ will flow, for real. Expect it to happen.

The QQ is already flowing in this thread via your posts. On paper it sounds better than how ELO has worked, why not give it a chance before complaining before it's even in the game?

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

This patch looks like it may be among the best yet. I can hardly wait until it goes live.

[Deathlike]

spectralthundr, on 17 August 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

The QQ is already flowing in this thread via your posts. On paper it sounds better than how ELO has worked, why not give it a chance before complaining before it's even in the game?

I've played enough games to know how certain scores are derived.

I'll give it a chance, but I'm pretty confident in my prognostication.