80 replies to this topic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

1453 R, on 19 August 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Spoiler

Ignoring the usual "CLANZ OP!!1! NO IZ OP!1!!" drinking contest for a few moments...

The iML and iSL are in a sad state and could use help - and this is coming from a guy who's mostly a dedicated Clan pilot. Lowering heat to 3 for the iML and 1 for the iSL would be a decent start, but it wouldn't be everything. As some folks have noted (believe it was Kiiyor who pointed this out), the 'drawback' of longer Clan burn times is as often as not no such thing, as the impulse damage -

[[Terminology Break. IMPULSE DAMAGE: defined as the damage per 'tick' of a beam weapon, usually approximated as damage per 0.1s, in order to compare raw DPS numbers between two beams. End terminology break]]

-of Clan lasers is often as high or higher than Spheroid impulse damage, meaning Clan beams get damage on target faster than Spheroid beams.

Obviously, this is balony.

Sphere standard lasers should be reliable, easy-to-use workhorse guns with a low heat load, viable for use in massed groups or in conjunction with other, higher-heat weapons. Every modifier you add to a laser (ER, Pulse, ER Pulse, X-Pulse, Heavy, whatever) adds to its heat. In addition, Sphere beams should generally have higher impulse damage than a typical Clan beam of the same type. This is somewhat twitchy as there's no such thing as Clan standard lasers to compare against, but for the moment:

iML
5 Damage
4 Heat
0.90s Burntime
---
0.55... Impulse
1.25 DPH (7/6)

cERML
7 Damage
6 Heat
1.15s Burntime
---
0.61... Impulse
1.16 DPH (7/6)

As we can see, the iML deals less impulse damage, less damage per tick, than the cERML, and has only a slight edge in DPH. The cERML puts more damage on target for the same burn time than the iML, for nearly the same overall heat. To this, we add the fact that the Clan beam has 50% more range and a staggering 40% overall absolute damage increase, meaning any given Clan 'Mech needs far fewer cERML to accomplish the same overall damage as a 'Mech with iML. Which, of course, means Clan 'Mechs need fewer hardpoints to be dangerous, and that Clan 'Mechs with more hardpoints are ludicrous. Looking at you, my beloved-yet-so-busted eight cMPL Cauldron-Born, or the unholy sprintmode horror that would be the Phantom.

Two cERML deal very nearly the same damage as three iML, for the same heat (12), over a much greater distance, with almost identical impulse values. This is not what we need. Try this, instead.

iML
5 Damage
3 Heat
0.75s Burntime
---
0.66... Impulse
1.66... DPH

cERML
7 Damage
6 Heat
1.25s Burntime
---
0.56 Impulse
1.16 DPH

Look at that. Even with what could be considered a pretty hefty swing in the balance of the two weapons, and the sort of balance change that would get the forum userbase screaming, the iML comes out only 0.1 impulse damage ahead of the cERML. The two guns still deliver close to the same damage per tic, though this time the iML comes out, properly, ahead. The DPH difference is huge, however - you can now fire two iML for every one cERML. Our previous comparison starts looking a bit less extreme - four iML deal 20 damage to three cERML's 14 for the same heat, which starts to really show an advantage in close-quarters brawling.

The Sphere, however, would state that this advantage is still not sufficient, and they might well have a point. The Clans still have a huge advantage in boatability given how dangerous individual cERML are, and in order to really derive the benefit their significant edge in DPH gives them, the iML needs to be boated en mass at levels few Sphere 'Mechs are capable of. Let's try another adjustment.

iML
5 Damage
3 Heat
0.75s Burntime
---
0.66... Impulse
1.66... DPH

cERML
6 Damage
5 Heat
1.25s Burntime
---
0.48 Impulse
1.2 DPH

See, now we're getting there. The iML pulls significantly ahead in impulse damage, dealing nearly half again the impulse of the cERML, and while the DPH gap has closed slightly, it's still something of a yawning gulf in favor of the iML. The Clan laser still deals 20% more overall damage than the Sphere laser, and does it at a huge advantage in range. But if the Sphere laser's carrier manages to close in, it has serious advantages in impulse damage and DPH that give it a very decided edge in a brawl. The reduction of the Clan laser's maximum damage point also pulls the hardpoint dilemma's fangs - three iML deal noticeably more damage than two cERML, as one might expect, and Clan 'Mechs need more overall weapons to pull off the same ridiculous damage numbers.

The iLL and iERLL are a great case of how to handle things like differences between standard and ER lasers. Add 50% more range? Also add 25% more burn time. Assuming for the moment that the standard iML is a 5 damage, 3 heat laser on a 0.75s burntime, and the (more than usual) fictional standard cML is a 6 damage, 4 heat laser on a 1.00s burntime, and we start seeing a predictable, sensible pattern emerging. cERML deals the same damage at significantly greater range, but for an extra point of heat and over 25% more time.

Apply similar principles to the rest of the energy weapons. ER is treated as a laser modifier - take a 'standard' laser, give it X extra heat, 50% increased range, and 25% increased burn time, and you have the resulting ER laser. Clan lasers deal more damage, but for more heat and also over an increased burn time - 'Clan' becomes another modifier to add to the base standard laser to derive final values from. Pulse, as a modifier to the standard laser, decreases burn time by some random, balanced, yet awesome amount (I'm hoping for 50% reduction myself. Dream big!), cuts range by 25%, and increases damage, to produce a close-quarters laser.

The important thing is to apply the same formula across all lasers. Balance the base lasers - the iSL, the iML, and the iLL - then balance the modifiers/formulas one applies to those lasers. The 'Clan' modifier is rebalanced to work better, the "ER' modifier is rebalanced to work better, the 'Pulse' modifier is rebalanced to work better. Once you have the base weapons balanced and the modifiers balanced, the resulting modified weapons should be far closer to balanced. All you'd need to do is make a few post-process tweaks to account for final performance, rather than (more) massive swings.

It also sets the stage for later advances in laser technology. The Clan's ER Pulse lasers are treated as a brand new modifier, X-pulse lasers are a new modifier, Heavy lasers are a new modifier. Micro lasers are a new base weapon type that nobody really cares about, but the important thing is that this sort of thing would let Piranha lay out a fundamental rebalancing framework that would fix the damn problem.

And we'd have a lot less "F*** CLANZ AND THER LAZORZ" threads like this one.

Liked your idea until you started proposing straight damage nerfs to clan lasers. Clans need to lose their range edge, not their overall damage edge. IS should have laser weapons that give them equal standing with clans on range, but higher impulse vs the clans higher damage.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 19 August 2015 - 02:35 PM.

[Pjwned]

mogs01gt, on 19 August 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

I dont see it helping much. Heat isnt an issue with ML's. Their issue is range.

There are a number of mechs that rely on using several medium lasers in most builds, and nearly all of them have 20-25% heat quirks to make them not suck so much.

[Dimento Graven]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 19 August 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

Liked your idea until you started proposing damage nerfs to clan lasers~

The same here, actually, and I'd like to point out there's another thread calling for a nerf to all lasers where I specifically stated it's not, and gave the alternative solution to a nerf to lasers as being implementing a TRUE heat affects table...

[Chados]

This guy's post is very well reasoned.

1453 R, on 19 August 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Ignoring the usual "CLANZ OP!!1! NO IZ OP!1!!" drinking contest for a few moments...

The iML and iSL are in a sad state and could use help - and this is coming from a guy who's mostly a dedicated Clan pilot. Lowering heat to 3 for the iML and 1 for the iSL would be a decent start, but it wouldn't be everything. As some folks have noted (believe it was Kiiyor who pointed this out), the 'drawback' of longer Clan burn times is as often as not no such thing, as the impulse damage -

[[Terminology Break. IMPULSE DAMAGE: defined as the damage per 'tick' of a beam weapon, usually approximated as damage per 0.1s, in order to compare raw DPS numbers between two beams. End terminology break]]

-of Clan lasers is often as high or higher than Spheroid impulse damage, meaning Clan beams get damage on target faster than Spheroid beams.

Obviously, this is balony.

Sphere standard lasers should be reliable, easy-to-use workhorse guns with a low heat load, viable for use in massed groups or in conjunction with other, higher-heat weapons. Every modifier you add to a laser (ER, Pulse, ER Pulse, X-Pulse, Heavy, whatever) adds to its heat. In addition, Sphere beams should generally have higher impulse damage than a typical Clan beam of the same type. This is somewhat twitchy as there's no such thing as Clan standard lasers to compare against, but for the moment:

iML
5 Damage
4 Heat
0.90s Burntime
---
0.55... Impulse
1.25 DPH (7/6)

cERML
7 Damage
6 Heat
1.15s Burntime
---
0.61... Impulse
1.16 DPH (7/6)

As we can see, the iML deals less impulse damage, less damage per tick, than the cERML, and has only a slight edge in DPH. The cERML puts more damage on target for the same burn time than the iML, for nearly the same overall heat. To this, we add the fact that the Clan beam has 50% more range and a staggering 40% overall absolute damage increase, meaning any given Clan 'Mech needs far fewer cERML to accomplish the same overall damage as a 'Mech with iML. Which, of course, means Clan 'Mechs need fewer hardpoints to be dangerous, and that Clan 'Mechs with more hardpoints are ludicrous. Looking at you, my beloved-yet-so-busted eight cMPL Cauldron-Born, or the unholy sprintmode horror that would be the Phantom.

Two cERML deal very nearly the same damage as three iML, for the same heat (12), over a much greater distance, with almost identical impulse values. This is not what we need. Try this, instead.

iML
5 Damage
3 Heat
0.75s Burntime
---
0.66... Impulse
1.66... DPH

cERML
7 Damage
6 Heat
1.25s Burntime
---
0.56 Impulse
1.16 DPH

Look at that. Even with what could be considered a pretty hefty swing in the balance of the two weapons, and the sort of balance change that would get the forum userbase screaming, the iML comes out only 0.1 impulse damage ahead of the cERML. The two guns still deliver close to the same damage per tic, though this time the iML comes out, properly, ahead. The DPH difference is huge, however - you can now fire two iML for every one cERML. Our previous comparison starts looking a bit less extreme - four iML deal 20 damage to three cERML's 14 for the same heat, which starts to really show an advantage in close-quarters brawling.

The Sphere, however, would state that this advantage is still not sufficient, and they might well have a point. The Clans still have a huge advantage in boatability given how dangerous individual cERML are, and in order to really derive the benefit their significant edge in DPH gives them, the iML needs to be boated en mass at levels few Sphere 'Mechs are capable of. Let's try another adjustment.

iML
5 Damage
3 Heat
0.75s Burntime
---
0.66... Impulse
1.66... DPH

cERML
6 Damage
5 Heat
1.25s Burntime
---
0.48 Impulse
1.2 DPH

See, now we're getting there. The iML pulls significantly ahead in impulse damage, dealing nearly half again the impulse of the cERML, and while the DPH gap has closed slightly, it's still something of a yawning gulf in favor of the iML. The Clan laser still deals 20% more overall damage than the Sphere laser, and does it at a huge advantage in range. But if the Sphere laser's carrier manages to close in, it has serious advantages in impulse damage and DPH that give it a very decided edge in a brawl. The reduction of the Clan laser's maximum damage point also pulls the hardpoint dilemma's fangs - three iML deal noticeably more damage than two cERML, as one might expect, and Clan 'Mechs need more overall weapons to pull off the same ridiculous damage numbers.

The iLL and iERLL are a great case of how to handle things like differences between standard and ER lasers. Add 50% more range? Also add 25% more burn time. Assuming for the moment that the standard iML is a 5 damage, 3 heat laser on a 0.75s burntime, and the (more than usual) fictional standard cML is a 6 damage, 4 heat laser on a 1.00s burntime, and we start seeing a predictable, sensible pattern emerging. cERML deals the same damage at significantly greater range, but for an extra point of heat and over 25% more time.

Apply similar principles to the rest of the energy weapons. ER is treated as a laser modifier - take a 'standard' laser, give it X extra heat, 50% increased range, and 25% increased burn time, and you have the resulting ER laser. Clan lasers deal more damage, but for more heat and also over an increased burn time - 'Clan' becomes another modifier to add to the base standard laser to derive final values from. Pulse, as a modifier to the standard laser, decreases burn time by some random, balanced, yet awesome amount (I'm hoping for 50% reduction myself. Dream big!), cuts range by 25%, and increases damage, to produce a close-quarters laser.

The important thing is to apply the same formula across all lasers. Balance the base lasers - the iSL, the iML, and the iLL - then balance the modifiers/formulas one applies to those lasers. The 'Clan' modifier is rebalanced to work better, the "ER' modifier is rebalanced to work better, the 'Pulse' modifier is rebalanced to work better. Once you have the base weapons balanced and the modifiers balanced, the resulting modified weapons should be far closer to balanced. All you'd need to do is make a few post-process tweaks to account for final performance, rather than (more) massive swings.

It also sets the stage for later advances in laser technology. The Clan's ER Pulse lasers are treated as a brand new modifier, X-pulse lasers are a new modifier, Heavy lasers are a new modifier. Micro lasers are a new base weapon type that nobody really cares about, but the important thing is that this sort of thing would let Piranha lay out a fundamental rebalancing framework that would fix the damn problem.

And we'd have a lot less "F*** CLANZ AND THER LAZORZ" threads like this one.

[M4rtyr]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 19 August 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

Which is why we need to balance clan and IS tech so they are actually different but equal. Just because they aren't now doesn't mean they can't be with some smart balancing. PGI has stated that they can't do 10 vs. 12; we just need to move on and focus on how the weapon systems can be balanced.

No... it's why they need a *%^#$% Battle Value system put in place.

Because not only don't you have the difference between Clan and IS tech you have major differences just in the varius chassis that make some naturally more effective than others. Not to mention unless they rip out all their idiototic quick BS they need BV to even that out too.

And don't say quicks are ment to balance things... There is no way some mechs having massive laser buffs + armor/internals and others have just a couple minor AC buffs balance out in any way shape or form.

[1453 R]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 19 August 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

Liked your idea until you started proposing damage nerfs to clan lasers~

A'ight. Since it's better than watching the back-and-forth, riddle me this: how do you solve the impulse issue, then?

To get a significant impulse damage improvement over the cERML, with the two set at 5 and 7 damage respectively, the burn times for both weapons would have to be comically distorted. My theoretical 0.75 is already treading close to pulse laser ground insofar as Piranha's current paradigm is concerned, and 1.25s burn time for the cERML hits the same issues as the iERLL. Squish the iML any shorter, or stretch the cERML any longer, and the former becomes functionally no different than a pulse laser while the later ends up in the Paul'd cERLL realm of unplayable unwieldy.

A 40% damage increase is a massive, monster deal. It's very difficult to balance something that deals nearly half again more damage than the normal option. In most games that have such a powerful damage option, that damage comes at the cost of range - the classic FPS shotgun. In this case though, the cERML deals 40% more damage at 50% more range. Such an advantage in other games comes with serious drawbacks, none of which the cERML has. But let's compare, for a moment, the classic FPS sniper rifle.

Sniper rifles, generally, have a much lower fire rate and, typically, extremely massive hipfire sway or other hindering effects which sharply reduce their effectiveness in close quarters. They require careful set-up and aim, and pay off that set-up and aim with capital-BD Big Damage. In MWO, that concept could easily be said to translate as burn time - the longer a laser's burn time, i.e. the lower its impulse damage, the more you need to set up the shot and aim carefully for it to pay off.

But right now? There's no realistic way you can offset a 40% damage increase by playing with burn times and impulse values. The 0.75s ~ 1.25s swings I proposed in my post were about the furthest I feel like the playerbase would accept in these two weapons, and it still didn't come close enough. People didn't take the iMPL over the iML back when the iMPL had double the impulse damage of the iML - why in the world would an iML user feel like he's on an even playing field with something that did 40% more damage than he did, with nothing but a ~0.1 impulse damage advantage to do it with?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Dimento Graven, on 19 August 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

We were approaching that with quirks and due to the Clanners unending pogram of forum bitching, guess what, that's all about to change.

What will happen when technologies become 'similar' and there's no 'true' technological edge to the Clanners any more? Bitching, more bitching, and whiney bitching ad nausea.

I liked the qurik thing because it was cool that IS mechs got to feel more specialized whereas clans felt more customized. The problem was that IS pilots really got pigion-holed into singular builds, hence why I never used them, I'm a mad mechlab scientist, I like experimenting.

Supposedly the big upcoming balance patch is going to find another way to bring IS mechs in line, we'll see how it goes. I will be pissed if they ruin my clan small lasers, but seeing how the TBR SCR laser nerf went I doubt it's going to be something as dramatic as a straight damage reduction.

My heart also goes out to people who loved the quirked style mechs.

Dimento Graven, on 19 August 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

Here's a short list of things we were told we weren't going to have:

3rd person view
In game VOIP
Consumable cooling pods
Urbanmechs

Need I say more?

I dunno about the other stuff, I'm only about a year into this game, but the entire community has been crying out for the urbie for a long time. All that loud and consistant protesting has paid off, but the 10 v 12 has not been near as fervently requested, I don't really care if it comes so long as both queues get it, but unless you get the whole player base behind you PGI is not going to chop through technical limitations just to bring you 10 v 12, I'm sorry.

[Dimento Graven]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 19 August 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

...

I dunno about the other stuff, I'm only about a year into this game, but the entire community has been crying out for the urbie for a long time. All that loud and consistant protesting has paid off, but the 10 v 12 has not been near as fervently requested, I don't really care if it comes so long as both queues get it, but unless you get the whole player base behind you PGI is not going to chop through technical limitations just to bring you 10 v 12, I'm sorry.

Yeah, the Urbie is a special case because it's the ONLY thing on that list that the players were actually asking for.

Edit: More explanation - if I remember correctly the player campaign for an urbie started when a practical joke from PGI took on a life of its own, and PGI suddenly realized, "Hey, there's money in them thar demands for the urbie..."

The other 3 things were either in direct opposition to what PGI had previously stated, or were things the community as a whole, wasn't really asking for, so how the F they go there (like 3rd person view for example) remains a mystery wrapped in an enigma burrito (mmm... getting close to diner time, I'm getting hungry).

Edited by Dimento Graven, 19 August 2015 - 02:51 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

1453 R, on 19 August 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

Spoiler

A'ight. Since it's better than watching the back-and-forth, riddle me this: how do you solve the impulse issue, then?

To get a significant impulse damage improvement over the cERML, with the two set at 5 and 7 damage respectively, the burn times for both weapons would have to be comically distorted. My theoretical 0.75 is already treading close to pulse laser ground insofar as Piranha's current paradigm is concerned, and 1.25s burn time for the cERML hits the same issues as the iERLL. Squish the iML any shorter, or stretch the cERML any longer, and the former becomes functionally no different than a pulse laser while the later ends up in the Paul'd cERLL realm of unplayable unwieldy.

A 40% damage increase is a massive, monster deal. It's very difficult to balance something that deals nearly half again more damage than the normal option. In most games that have such a powerful damage option, that damage comes at the cost of range - the classic FPS shotgun. In this case though, the cERML deals 40% more damage at 50% more range. Such an advantage in other games comes with serious drawbacks, none of which the cERML has. But let's compare, for a moment, the classic FPS sniper rifle.

Sniper rifles, generally, have a much lower fire rate and, typically, extremely massive hipfire sway or other hindering effects which sharply reduce their effectiveness in close quarters. They require careful set-up and aim, and pay off that set-up and aim with capital-BD Big Damage. In MWO, that concept could easily be said to translate as burn time - the longer a laser's burn time, i.e. the lower its impulse damage, the more you need to set up the shot and aim carefully for it to pay off.

But right now? There's no realistic way you can offset a 40% damage increase by playing with burn times and impulse values. The 0.75s ~ 1.25s swings I proposed in my post were about the furthest I feel like the playerbase would accept in these two weapons, and it still didn't come close enough. People didn't take the iMPL over the iML back when the iMPL had double the impulse damage of the iML - why in the world would an iML user feel like he's on an even playing field with something that did 40% more damage than he did, with nothing but a ~0.1 impulse damage advantage to do it with?

I've said it already.

Increase IS laser damage (including pulse) a little. Provide IS with early ER lasers that have current standard laser burn times and heat. Reduce standard/pulse laser burn times a little, and reduce their heat to beta levels.

If that's too much dev work then buff both pulse and standard IS lasers by 1 damage and increase their range some; don't reduce clan laser damage.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 19 August 2015 - 03:00 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Dimento Graven, on 19 August 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

Yeah, the Urbie is a special case because it's the ONLY thing on that list that the players were actually asking for.

Edit: More explanation - if I remember correctly the player campaign for an urbie started when a practical joke from PGI took on a life of its own, and PGI suddenly realized, "Hey, there's money in them thar demands for the urbie..."

The other 3 things were either in direct opposition to what PGI had previously stated, or were things the community as a whole, wasn't really asking for, so how the F they go there (like 3rd person view for example) remains a mystery wrapped in an enigma burrito (mmm... getting close to diner time, I'm getting hungry).

Yeah man, you got me on why they implemented some of those things. I really just don't see them implmeneting 10 vs 12 though.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 19 August 2015 - 02:58 PM.

[IronLichRich]

Before I make my actual arguments, let me address what was brought up earlier about would be happy playing the zergling against the zealot? Yup. If the templar comes out I'll be rocking my locked IS XL engine and enjoyjng it. I want Battletech more than I want balance.

The way I would address balance of weapons would be increasing cooldown, but with heat the way it is that doesn't work. So, what I would propose is this. If a weapon is ER, it doesn't deal damage beyond optimal range. You can either have more damage farther out, or start scratching them from a bit further away.

One other way we can go is IS pilots could choose if they want Clan guns or MEGABUFFZ

[Jack Shayu Walker]

IMO clans could do without the range advantage on their lasers, so I'm alright with them losing a bit of range and IS getting some range + damage. I think it would be great, in fact, if IS got ER lasers that matched or exceeded clan laser range.

Where PGI needs to tred lightly is nerfing damage and range to clan small lasers. No laser needs to be where the IS small laser is right now.

[M4rtyr]

Ugh... damn guys...

All this about do this or that to balance IS vs Clan lasers.

Got news for you, lasers aren't balanced with everything else at the moment hence lazervomit. They need to sort out ALL the weapons and if this is going to be Mechwarrior (ie Battletech) and not "Random Giant Robo Shooter" then yes the Clans should have advantages in areas.

This is exactly why we need a Battle Value system in place, I think the reasons there isn't one is because PGI just don't know how to do it. Admitedly it's very diffucult, it would make MM a total b!tch, how do you join CW fitting into a designed BV limit without requiring premades to start.

But bottom line is MWO is f'ing broken to hell... the heat system is a joke, weapon balance is pathetic, ECM ('nough said), Clan vs IS, etc etc etc...

When I first discovered MWO I prayed they would only do IS and not include the Clans, not because I don't like them, they are awesome. But the reality is the concepts of how Clanners were in the lore and how they played... well I knew there would be no way to include them in a PvP FPS MMO and have them actually work while still keeping them different. There were so many other aspects to making Clans and their superior tech work in the books and on tables that you'd never make it happen in this envirornment. And look where we're at...

Edited by M4rtyr, 19 August 2015 - 03:11 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 19 August 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Yeah man, you got me on why they implemented some of those things. I really just don't see them implmeneting 10 vs 12 though.

Honestly I can't see how they're going to keep the BattleTech 'flavor' without doing something like that.

I realize for very obvious reasons that this game can't match the original BT universe as it was conceptualized, but if you start making too many compromises... What's the old joke? "What is a camel? It's horse built by committee."

[1453 R]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 19 August 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

I've said it already.

Increase IS laser damage (including pulse) a little. Provide IS with early ER lasers that have current standard laser burn times and heat. Reduce standard/pulse laser burn times a little, and reduce their heat to beta levels.

If that's too much dev work then buff both pulse and standard IS lasers by 1 damage and increase their range some; don't reduce clan laser damage.

Increasing Spheroid beam damage does nothing to deal with the unhealthy preponderance of beam boats in the game. Much of the intent behind a laser rework is to bring missiles and ballistics back into the game; right now, people only take autocannons for giggles, SRMs are once again Lostech, and LRMs...well, that's a different thread. The only thing people run when they want to win hard is beams and Gauss.

Cut back Clan laser damage a bit, and you A.) suddenly have room to cut back the Sphere's utterly ridiculous megagagglegigaquirks, so that maybe they get 30% boosts tops instead of this 50% garbage, and B.) you give autocannons, SRMs, and other low-usage systems more breathing space in which to start doing their job.

Now, I agree - the Sphere small laser is ass on a stick and that needs to change. Kicking it up to 4/2, or hell, even 4/1, would turn it into what it should have been from the start, and what the cERSL is to the Clans - a great knife-fighting weapon you can strap on for next to no weight/space, giving you more room for heat sinks or extra weapons with which to outbrawl your enemies.

I have long, long maintained that small lasers - on both sides of the tech divide - should beat their weight in medium lasers inside SL effective range. They should do so handily. A Locust with four iSL should kick the crap out of a Locust with two iML, if the iSL locust can stay inside the effective range of its guns. ML should do the same to LL - a large laser should get rekt by its equivalent weight of ML inside the ML's effective range, which it very much is on both sides. Four/five MLs beat the hell out of a single LL, which leaves the LL to work as a ranged option, or as a supplement to smaller, shorter-ranged weapons.

The SL should be the same way, and it's irksome that it isn't. But superbuffing the Evil Laser Vomit Meta isn't the way to go, man. beams are already overdominant, we need to do something about that.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

IronLichRich, on 19 August 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Before I make my actual arguments, let me address what was brought up earlier about would be happy playing the zergling against the zealot? Yup. If the templar comes out I'll be rocking my locked IS XL engine and enjoyjng it. I want Battletech more than I want balance.

The way I would address balance of weapons would be increasing cooldown, but with heat the way it is that doesn't work. So, what I would propose is this. If a weapon is ER, it doesn't deal damage beyond optimal range. You can either have more damage farther out, or start scratching them from a bit further away.

I agree but I think it'd be better if we made the max range 140-130% of the weapons optimal range, rather than the current 200% or your proposed 100%. You might also need to give all small lasers a range buff.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

1453 R, on 19 August 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

Spoiler

Increasing Spheroid beam damage does nothing to deal with the unhealthy preponderance of beam boats in the game. Much of the intent behind a laser rework is to bring missiles and ballistics back into the game; right now, people only take autocannons for giggles, SRMs are once again Lostech, and LRMs...well, that's a different thread. The only thing people run when they want to win hard is beams and Gauss.

Cut back Clan laser damage a bit, and you A.) suddenly have room to cut back the Sphere's utterly ridiculous megagagglegigaquirks, so that maybe they get 30% boosts tops instead of this 50% garbage, and B.) you give autocannons, SRMs, and other low-usage systems more breathing space in which to start doing their job.

Now, I agree - the Sphere small laser is ass on a stick and that needs to change. Kicking it up to 4/2, or hell, even 4/1, would turn it into what it should have been from the start, and what the cERSL is to the Clans - a great knife-fighting weapon you can strap on for next to no weight/space, giving you more room for heat sinks or extra weapons with which to outbrawl your enemies.

I have long, long maintained that small lasers - on both sides of the tech divide - should beat their weight in medium lasers inside SL effective range. They should do so handily. A Locust with four iSL should kick the crap out of a Locust with two iML, if the iSL locust can stay inside the effective range of its guns. ML should do the same to LL - a large laser should get rekt by its equivalent weight of ML inside the ML's effective range, which it very much is on both sides. Four/five MLs beat the hell out of a single LL, which leaves the LL to work as a ranged option, or as a supplement to smaller, shorter-ranged weapons.

The SL should be the same way, and it's irksome that it isn't. But superbuffing the Evil Laser Vomit Meta isn't the way to go, man. beams are already overdominant, we need to do something about that.

This is true to a degree, but clan UAC/10s are amazing and I'm dumbfounded at how hard it is for people to realise it. I'm not wholly against cML getting a small damage nerf, but what I'm afraid it will lead to is the damage nerf of cSL which is so amazing without being broken. Your annecdote about small lasers being like side-knives is exceptionally true and I love how they play on the clan side.

What would you say to the proposition of bringing cERML down to 6.5 damage (7.5 for pulse), giving the IS their ER lasers with slightly more damage and significantly more range, but IS lasers get marginally increased cool down? cool down nerfs don't work on clans because of heat, but it'd be a more significant blow to IS lasers.

Alternatively there is the no ER solution of: bringing cERML down to 6.5 damage (7.5 for pulse), giving IS lasers better range, 0.5 points of extra damage, beta heat, and then increasing their cool down time. This would serve to keep the IS as the impulse king while making their already effective ballistics more attractive for sustained damage, or super impulse in the case of the AC20 (AC2s and SRMs will still need love ofcourse, but they need to be brought up to meet halfway).

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 19 August 2015 - 03:44 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

What about some middle ground then?

As long as sL and spL are actually more efficient than ML, its right smack in the middle.

ISML 3.5 heat? (4)
ISSL 1.5 heat? (2)
ISMPL 3.75 heat? (4)
ISSPL 1.75 heat? (2)

Oh right.. Decimals are scary.

I don't care either way, its not something I'm going to push for.

Was just a curiosity after browsing through Sarna and noticing it.

Edited by Mister D, 19 August 2015 - 03:47 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Mister D, on 19 August 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

What about some middle ground then?

As long as sL and spL are actually more efficient than ML, its right smack in the middle.

ISML 3.5 heat? (4)
ISSL 1.5 heat? (2)
ISMPL 3.75 heat? (4)
ISSPL 1.75 heat? (2)

Oh right.. Decimals are scary.

I don't care either way, its not something I'm going to push for.

Was just a curiosity after browsing through Sarna and noticing it.

IMO pulse lasers should match standard laser heat.

[LT. HARDCASE]

When I see the damage 3 heat Clan SPL do up close, I do feel my IS ML and MPL should be at 3 heat as well.