19 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

What I find the most frustrating with Conquest and Assalt is the huge amount of people who just play Skirmish every single match. They don't think beyond their crosshairs, the just deathball up and try to win by killing everything.

Well, this is part of what sucks about this game. Zero variety or thinking on the part of the players. Just waddle to the old sniper spot with your Dire Gauss or ECMcrutch and play alligator.

Since I stuck my nose back into this game and and the turrets have been removed, it's been like a Renaissance for me in Assault and to some extent Conquest (which is still defacto Skirmish mode because you can win through killing).

Now on assault, my goal is to cap base. Killing comes when you force your enemy to fight for it's base. Instead of slugging it out over the middle with nothing there, you go right for the throat. Now they are playing defensive. They are going "crap" I gotta get on base to save it or I lose. OR, they have to charge your base and try to out-cap you if possible (often not).

The other day, I started seeing the usual NASCAR start up on Tourmaline, so I packed it in and just took their base. An executioner saw what I was doing and came with my little Panther. We spun the entire team around and got them in a crossfire as they frantically tried to stop the cap with my team shooting them in the back, and the executioner tanking like a champ and me, jumping around through the arty strikes sniping and popping things and staying on base. (video to come)

On Conquest I keep seeing people say "just kill 4 and then go cap". No. Just no. You lose almost every time unless the map is a small one. on anything bigger than Caustic Valley, you lose, and hard. Why? Because you're probably not going to win that brawl and once you're down and you've refused to cap, suddenly you are down 300 points and have 4 points to take because the other team was smarter and sent at least 2 lights out capping. More likely it was 2 guys like me who ignored the fight and ran away from every fight till 4 points were captured before diving in.

The point is, this "everything is skirmish" crap has to stop. It's boring. It's stupid. It's what's choking the game. You got your skirmish mode, go play there. Conquest can be wonderful little 2v2 fights all over the map. Assault, the goal is to capture the base, not play skirmish. PGI has dropped the ball on not penalizing winning by kill in these modes. Seriously, I want to see Conquest be un-winnable by kills forcing you to sit around and be bored if you just play skirmish as you slowly cap what you ignored. Same goes for Assault. You can't win through kills, because the objective is to ASSAULT the base.

My hope is that PGI starts seeing that this game is not all Pewpewdurkadurka, but that is an aspect of the whole and each mode should have a seriously different reward system.

Conquest should:
- Not allow point generation from cap points unless a mech is standing on it. (gotta control 3 to win so there's going to be lance sized fights every game somewhere.)
- No victory by any means outside of conquest.
- No XP/Cbills for kills/assists
-Greatly increased rewards for capturing and holding caps while under fire. (Defensive kills et all) Means you were doing your objectives.

Assault should:
- Cannot win by kills
- Increased rewards for fighting (staying within a short distance from base)
- Rewards increase for assaulting base
- Slight decrease in Cbills/XP for kills/assists/damage


TL;DR
You got your TDM in Skirmish. If that's all you want to play, stay there.
PGI needs to redo the rewards for other modes to force alternate play styles and victory conditions while not defaulting to kills. An empty battlefield must still be held.
Play the mode you're in.

[Mystere]

Remember what I keep saying about MWO suffering from an overwhelming plague of one-dimensional thinkers?

Edited by Mystere, 21 August 2015 - 12:01 PM.

[El Bandito]

Assault and Conquest modes should have their cap objective's rewards increased by a lot.

Kjudoon, on 21 August 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Now on assault, my goal is to cap base. Killing comes when you force your enemy to fight for it's base.

I distinctly remember that in the Assault queue the win condition is either win by capturing the enemy base or by annihilating the enemy. Both options should be on the table. If you just want to force your team to cap the base all the time, that's just as bad as forcing TDM on each Assault match.

Similar deal with Conquest.

Edited by El Bandito, 21 August 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[Lily from animove]

increase the damn cap rewards MASSIVELY. Also increase cap protections.

all problems solved

[ApolloKaras]

Indeed. PGI doesn't help either - take a look at how the cap points on Alpine were changed for instance. I miss those old cap points. We are starting to have bigger maps, USE THE SPACE.

Starting to remind me of Battlefield 3, where we would have a HUGE ass map and group all the points within walking distance of one another.

Edited by Saxie, 21 August 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kjudoon, on 21 August 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

What I find the most frustrating with Conquest and Assalt is the huge amount of people who just play Skirmish every single match. They don't think beyond their crosshairs, the just deathball up and try to win by killing everything.

Funny thing is I see the opposite, I see too many ppl just base rushing to cap and everyone in the game gets zero damage

[Mystere]

Saxie, on 21 August 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

Indeed. PGI doesn't help either - take a look at how the cap points on Alpine were changed for instance. I miss those old cap points. We are starting to have bigger maps, USE THE SPACE.

Starting to remind me of Battlefield 3, where we would have a HUGE ass map and group all the points within walking distance of one another.

Did you notice how the Conquest cap points in the new Forest Colony are close together as well? The updated map may be bigger, but there is still a large amount of space that will never be used by most players.

Edited by Mystere, 21 August 2015 - 01:11 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mystere, on 21 August 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

Did you notice how the Conquest cap points in the new Forest Colony are close together as well? The updated map may be bigger, but there is still a large amount of space that will never be used by most players.

Its like that anyways. Look at River city, its huge but all ppl do is rush to the damn citadel

That would dissuade the hell out of me if I were PGI. Whats the point of them making bigger maps if we ignore 90% of the map

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Kjudoon.

The reason people dislike skirmish is due to it being one dimensional and linear. Deathblobbing is the typical strategy. Games tend to be very similar. This is partly due to there only being 1 path to victory. Only one way to win. When you propose that conquest only be winnable by capping and assault only be winnable by base assaults, you're proposing to make these game modes as one dimensional and linear as skirmish is.

The best thing about conquest and assault is having more than one method to win the game. This is one of the main reasons conquest and assault are better than skirmish. The non linear, asynchronous, gameplay. Games being less predictable and different from each other. There being a wider variety of strategies than simple deathblobbing.

So if you want to make a better game mode, the way to do it might be to introduce features and incentives that create gameplay that is more non linear than conquest or assault. Introduce more objectives and strategies rather than limiting or reducing the existing ones.

Saying that conquest would be better if capping were the only way to win, and assault would be better if base capping were the only path to winning... That's like saying the game would be better if medium lasers were the only weapon type available. Giving people more options and variety may be moreso the goal you're looking for than limiting options and variety.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 21 August 2015 - 01:22 PM.

[Sadist Cain]

Mystere, on 21 August 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

Remember what I keep saying about MWO suffering from an overwhelming plague of one-dimensional thinkers?

True as that is the game hardly encourages anything otherwise.

In every gamemode the best way to get a win that's beneficial to the player is blob up and destroy the other team asap. Even in CW that's the case.

There isn't a gamemode yet that encourages more than a one dimensional playstyle.

[OSUNightfall]

I hate to break it to you, but you're blaming the players for the bad design in the game modes. As long as killing is the fastest, easiest, and most profitable way to win these game modes, you will continue to see deathmatch in them instead of objective play.

If they were properly designed (and frankly, they may be entirely inappropriate for this game) players will naturally play them "correctly." Most games can get around this though, because they have respawns. King of the hill and area control work in other games because killing cannot win you the game. In MWO it not only wins you the game, it does so more quickly and with greater rewards than playing to the objectives.

[Deathlike]

When the cap positions are placed relatively close to each other, a "Skirmish" mentality is often more preferable for winning.

Removing 4 (a lance) to 6 (half the team) mechs is usually significant enough of a hurdle for a Conquest match to be decided early on... of course that depends on the score at the time (rarely does a Conquest match end in 15 mins).

It's really map design-cap placement that dictates what a player will do that determines the primary course of action.

Conquest on Alpine is literally the poster child for this behavior.

[Kira Onime]

Much more rewarding overall going for kills.

-More exp
-More cbills
-Better stats for those that care about it.


Sure, could go for base cap on assault, but the reward won't justify the wasted time and sometimes won't even cover the consumables cost.

[Kjudoon]

Paly without using consumables then. I can manage this most matches. After all using them is really something you should think twice about. And if i am playing for the grind and not the fun then i can see why you wouldnt. The solution there is still to play skirmish only.

[Davers]

Kjudoon, on 21 August 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Conquest should:
- Not allow point generation from cap points unless a mech is standing on it. (gotta control 3 to win so there's going to be lance sized fights every game somewhere.)
- No victory by any means outside of conquest.
- No XP/Cbills for kills/assists
-Greatly increased rewards for capturing and holding caps while under fire. (Defensive kills et all) Means you were doing your objectives.

Assault should:
- Cannot win by kills
- Increased rewards for fighting (staying within a short distance from base)
- Rewards increase for assaulting base
- Slight decrease in Cbills/XP for kills/assists/damage

It will just end exactly like CW where everyone kills all the defenders then destroys Omega. You have just added hugely to the 'mop up' part of the game without adding anything new to the first 2/3s.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Deathlike, on 21 August 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

When the cap positions are placed relatively close to each other, a "Skirmish" mentality is often more preferable for winning.

Removing 4 (a lance) to 6 (half the team) mechs is usually significant enough of a hurdle for a Conquest match to be decided early on... of course that depends on the score at the time (rarely does a Conquest match end in 15 mins).

It's really map design-cap placement that dictates what a player will do that determines the primary course of action.

Conquest on Alpine is literally the poster child for this behavior.

Or just killing the enemy team's fast movers. The main reason I dont play conquest anymore.

[bad arcade kitty]

conquest is nearly perfect as it is

keep your stupid ideas away of my conquest

[Davers]

Since my first post was a bit dismissive instead of conversational, I will throw my 2 Kerenskys in.

The initial description of Conquest was about a mode where mechs attacked and DEFENDED cap points. But currently there is no need to defend them- they take so long to change over that even assault mechs can stop it from across the map. My idea? Instant capping. Enemy mech touches your cap- boom, it changes over. Now you actually need to hold and defend them instead of just waiting for the 'enemy mech detected!' version of captures we have now.

Assault should be replaced with CW's Invasion. Reduce the number of generators to two, and place them further apart. This way we can get new modes for CW

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

You dont get rewarded good for capping. Why waste 10 Minutes or more inc wait time and leave the match with 50k? Either why play a shooter game without the will to shot or fight?


Its not the players fault that all modes feel the same. Its the minimal effort policy of pgi when adding content. Hey look we have a new game mode now- 2 bases are gone and its called now skirmish.

WOW

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 21 August 2015 - 06:35 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Then those players grinding instead of having fun should stick to skirmish. It is part of what it is there for. Those not grinding and looking for more fan play the other two in peace.