141 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 22 August 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

apparently im stuck in psr hell

This was an interesting game....

Luckily Twinky in the DWF is a show stopper.

[Kjudoon]

I want to point an important semantic thing since the theme of perception is running strong right now is also the issue of relativity. One person's boogeyman is Nother person's baby seal in the vast majority of cases. If tiers are as hard to change as russ has hinted at then therd should be a huge skill variance between them which means if we see hla tier higher than us that person IS probably a boogeyman compared to our relative skill. NOT ALL SEAL CLUBBERS ARE TIER 1 AND 2.


It is about comparative relative difference in skill. That can make anyone seem a"good"

[SkyHammyr]

I was thinking about this today.

We're seeing a lot of the high tier, comp folks because well- Two fresh new maps in Public, this new fangled PSR might be alluring and CW was broke a little bit ago (I think it might be fixed, but I dunno). Hell, CW is same old, same old, which is hard to compete with the new shiny maps.

I'm holding my own, I guess. There are still stomps happening, but not because high tier guys are rolling up the 6+ kill games. In fact the most kills I've seen a guy do since the update has been 4, and those have been uncommon. What I am more sensitive to now are the DCs/AFKs, because now, in my mind anyway, every mech matters and losing one out of the gate hurts.

Edited by SkyHammr, 22 August 2015 - 07:47 PM.

[Void Angel]

Krivvan, on 22 August 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

You were taught wrong. In this game, staying with the team is more important than doing the right thing (unless the team is quite literally running off the map). You're more likely to win a fight out of a bad position together than win with half the players in a good position.

Follow the Fracking Atlas.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 22 August 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

well its borked, given that Im bad at this game as already proven and Im being matched against not bad ppl lol

That doesn't follow - remember, they didn't simply extrapolate PSR from Elo - they did it from your gameplay stats, and we don't know how. Personally, I estimate my Elo was around Tier 2 or Tier 3, depending on chassis - but frankly, I'm seeing people from the proverbial Steering Wheel Underhive. In general, I think that the stats conversion method they used resulted in some outliers for those of us whose stats fell out in particular ways. So it's not that the system is borked, it's that we need time to move to our proper places within the system.

Tarogato, on 22 August 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

Technically, there are more ways to go up than to go down - strictly speaking, it takes less to go up. The OP's concern is very viable.



It's because there's no "very low" performance category.

I like the Nash Equilibrium. I do see what you mean, but there's a problem; we don't know what "slight" means, or what "exceptionally well," means. Because of this, while it may be true that, given infinite time, all players will eventually end up in tier 1, as a practical matter this may never happen. It's like quantum tunneling, or a room full of monkeys with typewriters. Your body might suddenly jump three feet sideways due to a random convergence of tunneling effects, but as a practical matter it never happens; the monkeys certainly would eventually bang out the script to Hamlet - but not before the heat death of the universe. So we need to know things we simply don't know before we break out the placards and start shouting eschatological catchphrases.

I do agree that there probably needs to be a "very poor" category. If I had to guess (and I do,) I'd say that they're worried about people chain rushing suicide 'mechs in order to tank their rating for fun and profit (rolling newbies, faster queue times, and/or Challenges.) If that's the case, I can see where they're coming from, but given the potential long-term instability you're describing, the devs may just have to decide that that's what K numbers and in-game monitoring/punishment is for.

Deathlike, on 22 August 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

My concern with the system is that some people will be inflated indefinitely at certain tiers (aka Elo hell) because unless you are really bad indefinitely, you will always reach a certain plateau and hang there for a significant bad.

You mean that, given a certain skill level and a lack of improvement, players will eventually reach equilibrium within the system? I'm not seeing your point, here.

PS: what is a "significant bad?"

[Sorbic]

Is the ranking system still done per class?

[Vlad Ward]

No.

[Kjudoon]

Nope.
One number to rule them
One number to find them
And in the darkness
Bind them

[Krivvan]

SkyHammr, on 22 August 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

We're seeing a lot of the high tier, comp folks because well ... and CW was broke a little bit ago

The vast, vast majority of high tier comp folks avoid CW. Many find it boring and it does give you terrible habits. It's sort of like playing PvE against low difficulty AI opponents to be honest. Personally I play it now and then if I need a bunch of C-bills, but I know many on comp teams that swear against ever playing CW.

[Kjudoon]

The most significant quote i ever got from a tournament team member was they wont do cw because it makes them sloppy and teaches them bad habits. They practice in the group queue exclusively.

[Sarlic]

Russ Bullock, on 21 August 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

I should also say that although we pre-seeded the tier system I think it will take a few weeks to settle. I myself am slowly climbing in score towards the next tier. Others may settle into one lower. It certainly needs more than a few days.

Why would i waste my time in a game when i get no chances and get stomped all the time with perhaps only slight chances of win? I practically get no chance to role effectively.

Or just do what others do: camp in a corner with gauss and lasers and hope for the best for their ranking. It's basically going this way as we speak.

Edited by Sarlic, 23 August 2015 - 12:13 AM.

[Eglar]

Sarlic, on 22 August 2015 - 11:59 PM, said:

Why would i waste my time in a game when i get no chances and get stomped all the time with perhaps only slight chances of win? I practically get no chance to role effectively.

Or just do what others do: camp in a corner with gauss and lasers and hope for the best for their ranking. It's basically going this way as we speak.

Public tiers are not even out and we already have people coming up with ideas how to "game the system" in order to lower or improve their rating. This is exactly the reason why I am against making the tiers public. While it can be a great improvement in terms of competitive play it also increases the toxicity of a community.

In all honesty, apart from some slight differences in which people you face, there is barely any evidence of changes comparing PSR/Elo. All you can see are people complaining about getting stomped 12:0 very often, asif it was any different with the old Elo-System.

[Vlad Ward]

Eglar, on 23 August 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Public tiers are not even out and we already have people coming up with ideas how to "game the system" in order to lower or improve their rating. This is exactly the reason why I am against making the tiers public. While it can be a great improvement in terms of competitive play it also increases the toxicity of a community.

In all honesty, apart from some slight differences in which people you face, there is barely any evidence of changes comparing PSR/Elo. All you can see are people complaining about getting stomped 12:0 very often, asif it was any different with the old Elo-System.

Nothing is more toxic than assumptions or perceptions that lack basis in fact.

Remember when every group that won a game was a premade and every random assortment of players with the same faction tag was a sync drop?

I would rather people know they were fighting a bunch of other Tier X's than have them moan incessantly about how they're clearly losing to Tier X+2s all the time while they're only matched with Tier X-2s on their own team.

[Sarlic]

Eglar, on 23 August 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Public tiers are not even out and we already have people coming up with ideas how to "game the system" in order to lower or improve their rating. This is exactly the reason why I am against making the tiers public. While it can be a great improvement in terms of competitive play it also increases the toxicity of a community.

In all honesty, apart from some slight differences in which people you face, there is barely any evidence of changes comparing PSR/Elo. All you can see are people complaining about getting stomped 12:0 very often, asif it was any different with the old Elo-System.

It was not different but if you encounter more extreme rofl stomps in just a few days where about i had in months(!) yeah something is up allright. Wheter its the new system or people are just bad i cant tell but frankly it irritates / frustates the hell out of me.

It's not one match, but tons of matches this way. Only very few are close matches.

I will give this a few weeks to settle on. And then see where i end up with.

Edited by Sarlic, 23 August 2015 - 02:26 AM.

[Eglar]

Sarlic, on 23 August 2015 - 02:24 AM, said:

It was not different but if you encounter more extreme rofl stomps in just a few days where about i had in months(!) yeah something is up allright. Wheter its the new system or people are just bad i cant tell but frankly it irritates / frustrates the hell out of me.

It's not one match, but tons of matches this way. Only very few are close matches.

I will give this a few weeks to settle on. And then see where i end up with.

I think people should differentiate between solo and group ques when making such statements. In my subjective opinion: It's alot easier to find games in Solo-Que compared to how it was before and you see a lot of people who you would never be seeing when Elo was around. I feel that they have either:

• Widened the MM-Criteria for Solo-Que,
  
• Put alot of people into Rating-brackets where they don't belong. (This would be great because this gets sorted in time)
  
• Have low requirements to get into a higher tier. So for instance there are a lot of people in Tier1 but the real difference is in skill within a tier is huge. (As opposed to how Elo worked with seamless Rating Numbers, PSR only works with tiers - right?)

Found that group - que is pretty much the same.

Vlad Ward, on 23 August 2015 - 02:15 AM, said:

Nothing is more toxic than assumptions or perceptions that lack basis in fact.

Remember when every group that won a game was a premade and every random assortment of players with the same faction tag was a sync drop?

I would rather people know they were fighting a bunch of other Tier X's than have them moan incessantly about how they're clearly losing to Tier X+2s all the time while they're only matched with Tier X-2s on their own team.

Yes. I can understand that. It just seems that this entire thing seems to become the prelude of:

[redacted]

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 04 September 2015 - 04:15 PM.
Unconstuctive/inappropriate content

[Kira Onime]

Yokaiko, on 23 August 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

A lot of "gamers" can't face their own badness.

Find me someone that enjoys being told they're bad on a daily basis.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Sarlic, on 23 August 2015 - 02:24 AM, said:

It's not one match, but tons of matches this way. Only very few are close matches.

More than three hours of losses straight yesterday for me

Kira_Onime, on 23 August 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Find me someone that enjoys being told they're bad on a daily basis.

Theres a restaurant in NY that literally serves verbal abuse with its food. Its on the menu. I assume such ppl go there

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 23 August 2015 - 09:33 AM.

[Kubernetes]

Eglar, on 23 August 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Public tiers are not even out and we already have people coming up with ideas how to "game the system" in order to lower or improve their rating.

I just don't see this happening on a wide scale. How many terrible games would it take to drop down a tier, a hundred? Maybe hundreds? How many people are going to tank for several straight days just for a payoff of easy games for a few days?

[Deathlike]

Void Angel, on 22 August 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

You mean that, given a certain skill level and a lack of improvement, players will eventually reach equilibrium within the system? I'm not seeing your point, here.

There will be a certain subset of players that will be placed in Tier 2 but shouldn't be due to how match score works. I figure that would factor in LRM boats in a negative way.

Quote

PS: what is a "significant bad?"

Brain fart for typos. I meant "significant time" (IIRC).

[SuomiWarder]

It occurs to me that the closer the player skill level, the more important team communications and the mechs involved are. If one side is sporting more Timbers, Stormcrows and such, or more assults/heavies, they will make the telling difference.

[Void Angel]

Show me how the formula they use to weight the different elements of match score will lead inexorably to that conclusion.