46 replies to this topic

[Candun]

the 4 highest dmg mechs were the arctic cheetahs

[Ragnahawk]

Skarlock, on 25 August 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

My best dire wolf has 92 matches I have played in it. I average about 552 damage per game, and a 1.48 kill average per game, win ratio about 1.57. k/d ratio is 2.78.

My cheetah has exactly 200 matches, does 453 damage per game, 1.68 kill average, win ratio 1.83, k/d ratio 2.99.

Keep in mind, this is purely solo queue stats. I don't play group queue at all.

Both mechs focus on accurate damage (dire whale is 2 gauss 2 lpl 4 er med) but my cheetah has more kill potential for running down wounded mechs, and gets more kills, yet my dire cracks a lot more armor. Dire is less maneuverable and less survivable being a big slow target but contributes more to a battle offensively. Cheetah on the other hand gets more wins because I can focus on the more important targets much more easily.

As far as my personal stats are concerned they feel pretty balanced to be honest, both are fairly effective. That being said, there is a huge rebalance of the entire game on the horizon, so we have no idea where the cheetah and dire will end up afterwards.

No arctic cheetahs are not OP stop complaining because I say they aren't, and my stats prove it. Everybody knows that damage follows the pilot not the mech, but when you get 5 of them in the same queue and they all do well, then how can it not be broken? If others are able to testify that all of this combined is too much, then they are also wrong?

Do we need scooby doo to solve this mystery? Here's an idea, let's get a firestarter and an arctic cheetah and compare them visually in a video.

Edited by F8Sealed, 25 August 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Tesunie]

F8Sealed, on 25 August 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

No arctic cheetahs are not OP stop complaining because I say they aren't, and my stats prove it. Everybody knows that damage follows the pilot not the mech, but when you get 5 of them in the same queue and they all do well, then how can it not be broken? If others are able to testify that all of this combined is too much, then they are also wrong?

Do we need scooby doo to solve this mystery? Here's an idea, let's get a firestarter and an arctic cheetah and compare them visually in a video.

For the record, I don't think that is what he was meaning. I think he was meaning that a mechs performance will depend upon the pilot. His experience with the mech is that it doesn't feel over powered for what it is.

He by no means said that it couldn't be OP, or that it was or was not. Not unless I seriously missed something when I was reading...

[The Lost Boy]

Last night I played in a Community warfare drop with 12 Cheetahs on first drop! Needless to say they chewed thru our fist wave with ease and by our 3rd we finally had them down to 3 or 4 left. What kind of NOT FUN GAME was that.

[Kmieciu]

Lemming of the BDA, on 25 August 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Last night I played in a Community warfare drop with 12 Cheetahs on first drop! Needless to say they chewed thru our fist wave with ease and by our 3rd we finally had them down to 3 or 4 left. What kind of NOT FUN GAME was that.

You want fun, shell out $30.

[Javenri]

Kmieciu, on 25 August 2015 - 10:27 PM, said:

You want fun, shell out $30.

Not sure I get your point.

[Anunknownlurker]

My ACH was owned by a better player in a Raven last night. This game has always been about player skill and long may it remain that way..just saying.

[Nightshade24]

F8Sealed, on 24 August 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

Let me just add: This would be a completely different discussion is this mech was available to everyone. I think its time all clan mechs go half speed and gain heat gen when they lose a torso.

they already got a big heat penalty (for at least half of the clan mechs thus far) and the movement penalty does exist in lore but it's because of heat scaling, in BT the hotter a mech gets the slower it moves. Having a timberwolf start moving slower because of it is as logical as a Thunderbolt with 3 large pulse lasers or a 6 large laser stalker moving slower because they keep vomiting lasers.

This would also be unfair to the clan mechs that are already on the severely underpowered side (mist lynx, adder, nova, summoner, gargoyle, etc. Compared to the clans we got a massive percentage of clan mechs severely underpowered while the IS do not really stick out much- granted I do not own the quickdraw or trebuchet where many players complain about, even if 100% of those variants are very bad it it's still minute to the rest of the IS mechs). The worst part of this is some of those mechs (Nova, Adder, Summoner, gargoyle) are already having heat problems with there stock weaponary or doing builds that mimic the stock... meanwhile some of those mechs are in a bad situation where due to no ferro or endo steal, the XL engine isn't considered an XL op engine, but instead a over sized underpowered standard engine because the lack of endo and ferro on some clan chassis make it as slow as the standard engine IS mechs of equal firepower.



Instead of applying huge nerfs that may tickle a timberwolf but send the mistlynx 17 feet underground when it hits the jumpjet key due to over heating and exploding just by existing how about we first ballance clans to other clans before we balance IS to Clans? Because destroying the few mechs for clans that work would hurt the game in general- remember what happened when the timberwolf and stormcrow was nerfed hard? Nearly every clan on CW got pushed back to there homeworlds and you barely saw anyone playing CW.

When the day a nova is as scary as a hunchback or the gargoyle is as fearsome as a battlemaster then that would be the day we can start looking at interfaction ballance.

Note: I think the clan battlemechs that are being added will help with balance as they got no penalties that omnimechs provide. they can change engines, get Endo or ferro, etc. thus proper balance can occur. Once that is established the rest of the clans can be fixed so to say- however I wouldn't be surprised if battlemechs get slight nerfs ie: srm's go out in streams. while omnimechs do not get nerfs. Speaking of individule weapon performance the min range of LRM's, ER PPC damage, etc for clans could be quirked on the said mechs I said that had problems...

I am a bit going to far with this, as the main topic of discussion is arctic cheetah, I say incremental changes to it's legs should be satisfactory. slight fall damage reduction quirk and flamer quirks would probably help the thing. (flamer quirks for the dream that flamer one day may be worth it.)

[B0oN]

Buy the ACH and participate, is what Kmieciu is telling you .

Or get in your FS´s/Streakcat´s/wotever and start counter-terrorising those pesky ACH ... by the way : like all lights before them, their legs are very tasty treats to the bloodgod .

Other than that :
I was playing Clans near-exclusively since they came out (I used my Sarah Jenner <3 for about 3 or 4 matches) .
Recently went back to test a few IS mechs .
Holy ****, IS stuff is so easy to use that I really have to ask myself if most of the complaining people just need a proper mech-basic-training or are converted joypadders and are still having major trouble getting accustomed properly with mouse and keyboard or if they are just plain bad and will never learn anyway.

Anyway, I´ll tell you what I think, OP : Give PGI time to bring their announced "mega-balance-pass" and then let´s have a look how everything does because nowaday´s balance won´t be forever .

[Nightshade24]

Lemming of the BDA, on 25 August 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Last night I played in a Community warfare drop with 12 Cheetahs on first drop! Needless to say they chewed thru our fist wave with ease and by our 3rd we finally had them down to 3 or 4 left. What kind of NOT FUN GAME was that.

not to pull out the card but...

Spiders... Firestarters... etc do the exact same thing but faster to the clans for the past few months... There is many videos out there with 12 firestarters with a bare few spiders (for ECM) to do it, where the resaults is A: ignore and leg enemy defenders, get the base and win in 2 minutes. (2 minutes for 100k c-bills + for contract and loyalty bonus is quite a lot...) or B : you go annihilate the first 2 waves of enemy mechs in your first mech unless they got a streak boat.

Firestarter is a light clan mech with ECM, speed, and the 'firepower' to do this tactic. before the clans did 12 man Ice ferret teams before and it's quite a bit less effective and slower at what it does but due to the fact that it's an ice ferret you probably didn't notice.

Rad Hanzo, on 26 August 2015 - 12:53 AM, said:

Buy the ACH and participate, is what Kmieciu is telling you .

Or get in your FS´s/Streakcat´s/wotever and start counter-terrorising those pesky ACH ... by the way : like all lights before them, their legs are very tasty treats to the bloodgod .

Other than that :
I was playing Clans near-exclusively since they came out (I used my Sarah Jenner <3 for about 3 or 4 matches) .
Recently went back to test a few IS mechs .
Holy ****, IS stuff is so easy to use that I really have to ask myself if most of the complaining people just need a proper mech-basic-training or are converted joypadders and are still having major trouble getting accustomed properly with mouse and keyboard or if they are just plain bad and will never learn anyway.

Anyway, I´ll tell you what I think, OP : Give PGI time to bring their announced "mega-balance-pass" and then let´s have a look how everything does because nowaday´s balance won´t be forever .

I agree with some of this. But not all.


I wounder how the situation will turn when clan battlemechs come out.

Reminds me when the mauler and black knight were accidental advertised as omnimechs... lots of people cried they will be underpowered due to that. funny...

[Tesunie]

Nightshade24, on 26 August 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

I am a bit going to far with this, as the main topic of discussion is arctic cheetah, I say incremental changes to it's legs should be satisfactory. slight fall damage reduction quirk and flamer quirks would probably help the thing. (flamer quirks for the dream that flamer one day may be worth it.)

Actually... One of my Cheetahs have flamers on them. One of my better preforming close ranged Cheetahs. (One is set up with 2 Flamers (one in each arm on chain fire), CERSML and a MG paired, and two CERMLs. The other is set up as two CERMLs, two CERSML and two SRM4s on chain fire.) You blind and roast as you run around them and keep poking them. Great if you catch a single mech alone. The Chain fired flamers never overheat me and I actually cool down while using them.

This should now prove my sanity levels, if they ever were in doubt.

[Nightshade24]

Tesunie, on 26 August 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

Actually... One of my Cheetahs have flamers on them. One of my better preforming close ranged Cheetahs. (One is set up with 2 Flamers (one in each arm on chain fire), CERSML and a MG paired, and two CERMLs. The other is set up as two CERMLs, two CERSML and two SRM4s on chain fire.) You blind and roast as you run around them and keep poking them. Great if you catch a single mech alone. The Chain fired flamers never overheat me and I actually cool down while using them.

This should now prove my sanity levels, if they ever were in doubt.

Do not worry, I do know you in the field and forum for awhile- your sanity levels is still okay- or at least equal to mine.

I also got the flamer on my prime and a few others... heh, I left my prime stock.

[Tesunie]

Nightshade24, on 26 August 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

Do not worry, I do know you in the field and forum for awhile- your sanity levels is still okay- or at least equal to mine.

I also got the flamer on my prime and a few others... heh, I left my prime stock.

I use LRMs, Flamers and MGs. Oh my. Don't tell the competitive crowds this.
(Because when I say things like that, they seem to forget that I use other weapons too.)

My Prime got used for...
Take a guess...
Hold on...


LRMs...
Shocking! I know.
And it is actually my BEST preforming Cheetah in my roster!

[Void Angel]

OP: One issue at a time. Conflating two completely different issues is a sure-fire way to preclude any useful analysis.

As for the Arctic Cheetah, the problem isn't that it has firepower similar to the Firestarter, and strong heat quirks, and 142kph speed, and enhanced acceleration, and enhanced deceleration, and enhanced turning, and ECM, and arm structure quirks, and leg structure quirks, and torso structure quirks, and missile spread reduction, and jump jets, and ECM, and a Clan XL.

It's all the ands. The total package of the Arctic Cheetah brings more to the table than its alternatives. It's not just the variant in the OP - if that variant were summarily erased, the Cheetah would still continue to be a problem because of how much customized utility and power it can bring to the battlefield.

Where the hammer needs to fall is more than I can say - the issue is complex and has multiple causes, as I pointed out. But some reduction in power seems to be very appropriate.

[Skarlock]

Tesunie, on 25 August 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

For the record, I don't think that is what he was meaning. I think he was meaning that a mechs performance will depend upon the pilot. His experience with the mech is that it doesn't feel over powered for what it is.

He by no means said that it couldn't be OP, or that it was or was not. Not unless I seriously missed something when I was reading...

Here's exactly what I feel. I think overall the cheetah is the strongest light, bar none. However, I also feel that any pilot in a light will struggle to do as much as someone in a quality heavy mech or assault mech. I think the cheetah levels the playing field a lot more and is more in line of what I think piloting a light should be like. I think they should also un-nerf the firestarter S and the raven 2X and give them back their old quirks. They should also give a very long look at the other IS and clan lights so they can be brought up to a higher standard of power. So is the cheetah overpowered? Yes, compared to other lights. Is the cheetah overpowered in the grand scheme of things? No, because lights in general are under powered, but the cheetah feels about right for what it is capable of doing. I wouldn't mind if they tone down the structure bonuses on the thing, sure. I wouldn't even mind if they lessened or removed the energy heat reduction. I just don't want PGI to apply hamfisted changes like the nerfs they gave the stormcrow and timber wolf, that were shortly all but removed. Keep in mind, I think PGI didn't go far enough nerfing those specific mechs, which I pilot quite a bit, but the community outrage over it was so severe they just couldn't do it...

[Skarlock]

Void Angel, on 26 August 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

OP: One issue at a time. Conflating two completely different issues is a sure-fire way to preclude any useful analysis.

As for the Arctic Cheetah, the problem isn't that it has firepower similar to the Firestarter, and strong heat quirks, and 142kph speed, and enhanced acceleration, and enhanced deceleration, and enhanced turning, and ECM, and arm structure quirks, and leg structure quirks, and torso structure quirks, and missile spread reduction, and jump jets, and ECM, and a Clan XL.

It's all the ands. The total package of the Arctic Cheetah brings more to the table than its alternatives. It's not just the variant in the OP - if that variant were summarily erased, the Cheetah would still continue to be a problem because of how much customized utility and power it can bring to the battlefield.

Where the hammer needs to fall is more than I can say - the issue is complex and has multiple causes, as I pointed out. But some reduction in power seems to be very appropriate.

The same could really be said of any clan mech though. Also keep in mind if you take ECM, you don't get the ach-c side torso in its place, so your heat reduction comes down to 7.5% which is much less than FS-9S heat reduction of 20%, assuming you take small pulses on the cheetah. In addition to this, you're lacking a true double heatsink because of the small engine, meaning you only get 9 true double heat sinks on the cheetah. Cheetahs run very hot because of this, even with the efficiency of clan small pulses, so hot that you typically gain quite a bit of heat while jumping due to the six jump jets and low amount of available cooling.

Either way, there's a huge rebalance coming down the pipe so It's almost moot to argue about how the cheetah should be fixed. I feel that in general, clan balance vs. IS balance doesn't exist, and that needs to be addressed first and foremost as PGI really hasn't done a lot to equalize the playing field. They created an entire game mode so clans could fight the IS and yet only a handful of IS mechs are really any good in it.

If I were to rebalance the cheetah I'd just cut the leg and arm structure bonuses in half and see where that leads, but we have no idea what other changes PGI is making that may impact the cheetah, and everything else that has to fight them.

[Javenri]

Rad Hanzo, on 26 August 2015 - 12:53 AM, said:

Buy the ACH and participate, is what Kmieciu is telling you .

That is what I thought, but I thought you also reqad the post where the player who complaint was a Steiner. How is he supposed to participate in CW with a Clan mech? Aside from CW, why would someone need to buy a specific mech for normal drops because it is so strong? The suggestion is stupid, balance need to be maintained to acceptable levels. A mech should NEVER be severely overpowered compared to others to avoid such situations

[Nightshade24]

Void Angel, on 26 August 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

OP: One issue at a time. Conflating two completely different issues is a sure-fire way to preclude any useful analysis.

As for the Arctic Cheetah, the problem isn't that it has firepower similar to the Firestarter, and strong heat quirks, and 142kph speed, and enhanced acceleration, and enhanced deceleration, and enhanced turning, and ECM, and arm structure quirks, and leg structure quirks, and torso structure quirks, and missile spread reduction, and jump jets, and ECM, and a Clan XL.

It's all the ands. The total package of the Arctic Cheetah brings more to the table than its alternatives. It's not just the variant in the OP - if that variant were summarily erased, the Cheetah would still continue to be a problem because of how much customized utility and power it can bring to the battlefield.

Where the hammer needs to fall is more than I can say - the issue is complex and has multiple causes, as I pointed out. But some reduction in power seems to be very appropriate.

the "ands" are part of it... however it isn't the first mech.

Spider and Raven does also fit those bills as well...
Raven has more firepower, faster, more durability, better profile and hitbox. etc- basicly the main problem with it is no JJ.

I do wounder at the quirks a little bit- however my main focus is on the non 35 ton lights instead of the ones that are (well, excluding adder in exchange for arctic cheetah).


it's complicated topic... however I would support the idea of the quirks mainly shifting to the omnipod set bonus. So doing firestarter-esq builds will be 'weaker' while using an LBX 2, LRM 5's, or the stock-ish weapons are not that bad.

[Wing 0]

F8Sealed, on 24 August 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

5 Arctic Cheetahs and 1 Jenner. This is fair. This is totally fair. So out of all these mechs. Which mech chassis had the highest average???

I think their PSR Rating rose so much that they all ended up in the same match.

Metamechs.com Arctic Cheetah:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...115b4702caf942c
Quirks:

Copied from: http://snafets.de/mwo/clan_quirks.htm
Additional Structure Left Arm+8
Additional Structure Left Torso+7
Additional Structure Right Arm+8
Additional Structure Left Leg+15
Additional Structure Right Leg+15
Energy Weapon Heat Generation-5%
Pulse Laser Heat Generation-5%
ER-Laser Duration-2.5%
Laser Duration-2.5%
Acceleration10%
Deceleration10%
Torso Yaw Speed4%

This C variant is a special preorder variant. It holds a lot of duration from what I see.

Oh wow. you didnt care to think your screen shot can violate TOS with names showing. An admin will be reported to deal with this.


First off the Cheatah C variant is a 4th variant. those who bought the packs during the early adoption time WILL take advantage of it and guess what, you snooze you lose.


Second we cant buy multiple C type pods for the other arctic cheatahs yet since the 4th C-type isnt out till later. you need to look at your info harder in regarding the loadout stats. some of us removed a C-type torso pod to use ECM and all. So your numbers there are NOT what most pilots have.


Third be glad it wasnt a 12 man cheatah group in CW. if it was, you'd be saying oh ****. you're dead.

[Tesunie]

Wing 0, on 26 August 2015 - 11:17 PM, said:

Oh wow. you didnt care to think your screen shot can violate TOS with names showing. An admin will be reported to deal with this.

As far as I know, a posting of an end screen shot does not violate the Name and Shame rule. However, this does also depend upon how the screen shot is being used. There should be no shame on what happened for a single end of match score.

Now, a screen of an end of match score, with chat, could be more of an issue depending upon what is in the chat. Most times, even that wouldn't be a problem.

The only time that an End of Match screen breaches the "Name and shame" rule is if it is being used to shame someone. For example, if someone posts an end of match score, and I did poorly in it. There is no shame in it. However, in the post that person placed that end of match score is railing on "all the low score morons (for example)", then it's name and shame. Of if they specifically posted it going "Tesunie is a horrible player! He couldn't even break 100 damage!" That would fall under name and shame. (Unto which, I'd point out the fact it's only a single match score, and still wouldn't personally feel shame about it.)

Until I'm specifically told otherwise, I don't believe an end of match screen shot has anything to do (depending upon how it is used of course) with Name and Shame. With, or without, the names attached to it. (I personally have never blanked out the names of any end of match screen shots I've taken and posted. And I have never gotten in trouble for it (yet).)