44 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

And I spam lrms and get a 250 match score even on a loss

[Mcgral18]

Mawai, on 25 August 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

"You'd be under 300 damage, which is hardly a contribution."

Wow. I disagree. Properly applied and aimed 300 damage is sufficient to kill several mechs.

When I see someone with 1200 damage ... I am not generally impressed with their skill but usually by the lack of it since 1200 damage is sufficient to core out 6 assaults solo. Many folks can't do 1200 damage without splattering it everywhere. I admit this softens up a lot of targets but does it represent a bigger contribution to winning the match than the player that does 300 damage in the right place?

I don't think so and that is one of the problems with a match score that is focused on damage done. Unfortunately, as the OP suggested, a lot of the other team support actions that you take besides applying bulk damage, just don't show up in the match score.

1200 damage at least means you contributed to a win without sitting in a box.
300 means...you generally got ganked and/or avoided fighting.


1200 damage means you had too many of the 300 damage players, who failed to kill anything.
If you have too many competent players, no one scores well, everyone does mediocre.

Sitting in a box, alone, will take you roughly 4 minutes to cap the (Assault) base. Linear decrease for more people.
You can kill someone in 10 seconds. One of these things is more efficient.


I won't argue that PGI could add incentive for team values, and decrease damage farming, but it still won't change how the game is played.
Killing robots is what makes you win. When people avoid killing robots, you tend to lose unless it's an incredibly boring base rush with 6 mechs, where no robots are shot and no one has fun.

[maxdest]

If you are talking CBILLs or XP then I agree, player contributions are not always accounted and some of the rewards for non combat 'winning' actions are a bit off.

However in relation to purely PSR if non combat actions (whatever they are) are truely creating a higher win rate, then the actors PSR will also be going up more consistantly. e.g.

A player whom only damages and doesnt contribute to a win would gain more PSR on a win but win less
A player whom aims for a win but doesn't damage(much) would gain less PSR on a win but win more
On a loss both players would either be loosing PSR or remaining even at best.

Therefore any action that helps secure a win is rewarded, but it is rewarded in a greater consistancy rather than ona game by game basis.

[Yanlowen Cage]

I have pulled several 300 and 400 point games. with 4 and 5 kills. accuracy! I have pulled 1200 point games with no kills. Lurms baby!

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Paigan, on 25 August 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

I just had a very nice game: held several enemies down, 1 kill myself, capped, awesome victory. Match score: 135. Yay!

Yes I put lurms on my shadowhawk lol

and my boars head rofl

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 25 August 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mawai, on 25 August 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

"You'd be under 300 damage, which is hardly a contribution."

Wow. I disagree. Properly applied and aimed 300 damage is sufficient to kill several mechs.

When I see someone with 1200 damage ... I am not generally impressed with their skill but usually by the lack of it since 1200 damage is sufficient to core out 6 assaults solo. Many folks can't do 1200 damage without splattering it everywhere. I admit this softens up a lot of targets but does it represent a bigger contribution to winning the match than the player that does 300 damage in the right place?

I don't think so and that is one of the problems with a match score that is focused on damage done. Unfortunately, as the OP suggested, a lot of the other team support actions that you take besides applying bulk damage, just don't show up in the match score.

I don't pull shots just because I don't have a shot on a CT. If I see a Dire trying to get away with his CT hidden, I am sure as hell going to try to blow out his ST, because I know there are DHS, weapons, ammo, etc there, and destroying them will help the team.

Or maybe you see an Atlas with a weak ST and still armored CT. Yeah, I could remove half his weapons in one shot, which helps the team.

Or Dragon 1N right arm.. not a kill shot but going to neuter him.

Doing 1200 damage is never a bad thing..

[Deathlike]

PSR doesn't punish teamplay.

It punishes recklessness (getting killed early) and not being useful/effective as much as possible.. which unfortunately means you have to shoot other mechs a lot (picking/building good mechs+loadouts helps a lot as well).


The easiest shot to make is one where you are the second person to start a doubleteam on a target. You can only hope that people do the same when you're engaging a target.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 August 2015 - 03:52 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Yanlowen Cage, on 25 August 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

I have pulled several 300 and 400 point games. with 4 and 5 kills. accuracy! I have pulled 1200 point games with no kills. Lurms baby!

9 kill, 622 damage, Win

5 kill, 1007 damage, Loss (Match Score 602, next highest on team 171)

3 kills (8 assist), 1242 damage (worth noting, 4 Assaults, 4 Heavies, 3 Heavies, 1 Light on the red team; lots of armour) Win

The most recent entries.
Killing Blow means you dealt the last hit, but doesn't make note of how much you did to them. It also seems the KMDD is also worthless, and is even detrimental to your score.

Removing an ST also counts the arm IS+A, so that inflates it by various amounts. Doesn't change the fact that damage is worthwhile, even if it isn't efficient.

Edited by Mcgral18, 25 August 2015 - 02:46 PM.

[Hydrocarbon]

Paigan, on 25 August 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

- I outrange enemies and damage them without being damaged (or at least taking less damage than them) or even drive them away
- I drive enemies into hiding with a SINGLE (SECONDARY!) LRM-5 (You'd be suprised how well that works)


- I do not hide with a fat LRM boat, I fight direct LoS and I take damage like the rest (if I'm not careful).

Here's the problem with the upper points: we're not fighting on barren, flat parking lots. Most enemies will simply fight your brawlers around a corner/cliff/etc from you - or worse put your teammates between you & the enemies. Your brawlers die, then you become the hunted. That's just a mater of mathematics when 12 people only have 11 mechs to focus on

Also most snipers fail to understand snipers in MWO can still snipe 100% effectively with most of their armor striped. Meanwhile the tanks start blowing up the instant their armor is gone. There is a HUGE difference between taking unnecessary damage and SHARING damage.


Regarding the last point, LoS LURM'ing is just as harmful to your teammates if you're well beyond enemy range for the reasons above. After fighting many lost battles with people sharing your ideas, I feel no remorse saying this to you: enjoy your crappy match score.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 25 August 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

The most recent entries.
Killing Blow means you dealt the last hit, but doesn't make note of how much you did to them. It also seems the KMDD is also worthless, and is even detrimental to your score.

I'll still do it for the C-bills honestly.

Although, what's the diff between KMDD (Killed Most Damage Dealt or whatever) and Solo Kill these days?

[Lyoto Machida]

Paigan, on 25 August 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

*sigh*

If you think damage is the only contribution, then you must think boating LRMs is the best thing you can do.

There are a LOT of non-high-damage ways to contribute to a win
- disturb enemies
- provide ECM
- provide AMS (don't just quote this single point and flame it, it's little, but it's a point)
- provide enemy positions on the map
- counter ECM
- finish cored mechs
- headshotting a perfectly fine mech (hardly any damage, you know?)
- drive enemies into the arms of the big guns
- even laser tagging

etc.

I had something around 130 damage in that particular game. It was relatively low, even for that mech&strategy (normally around 250-300), but does it really matter if I had a kill (efficiently CT'ed a Blackjack) and capped and kept a Jenner, a panther and a DWF in cover until they got ambushed?
All in all, it WAS a huge contribution because I made the life of my team mates so much easier.
And even if you discount all the tactical benefits, killing a similarily weighted enemy Mech IS a raw, concrete killing contribution. It was just very efficient and didn't require a lot of damage.

Well, you can keep crying about it and disputing what players in this thread evidently already tested or learn to adapt within the system provided for the time being.

I mean, some of us want ECM to be fixed but it hasn't so we deal with it as it currently is while lobbying for it to be changed hopefully down the road. Sounds like you need to learn how to work better within the system.

Also...who says you have to hide in a fat LRM boat?

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 25 August 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

I'll still do it for the C-bills honestly.

Although, what's the diff between KMDD (Killed Most Damage Dealt or whatever) and Solo Kill these days?

KMDD allows for a Solo Kill (Killing Blow and KMDD required) which seems to be worth 8 points.

So, getting that Killing Blow is worth 12 points, if you've got KMDD.

[Tyler Valentine]

Mcgral18, on 25 August 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

1200 damage at least means you contributed to a win without sitting in a box.
300 means...you generally got ganked and/or avoided fighting.


1200 damage means you had too many of the 300 damage players, who failed to kill anything.
If you have too many competent players, no one scores well, everyone does mediocre.

Sitting in a box, alone, will take you roughly 4 minutes to cap the (Assault) base. Linear decrease for more people.
You can kill someone in 10 seconds. One of these things is more efficient.


I won't argue that PGI could add incentive for team values, and decrease damage farming, but it still won't change how the game is played.
Killing robots is what makes you win. When people avoid killing robots, you tend to lose unless it's an incredibly boring base rush with 6 mechs, where no robots are shot and no one has fun.

I'm sick of you guys bullying everyone on these forums. In a vacuum, yes 1200 damage is better than 300 but the OP makes a great point and you don't address it AT ALL. Whoa! you scored 1200 once... and POSTED IT on these forums! Holy crap you must be the coolest guy in the world...LOL! The point is: The masses think that there should be rewards for people who help the team, without doing a bunch of useless damage to arms, and this is not being addressed by the game developers. A response of: "but it still won't change how the game is played.
Killing robots is what makes you win." is not only depressingly pathetic but is also the complacency that encourages the lack of development. GJ!

[Mcgral18]

Tyler Valentine, on 25 August 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

I'm sick of you guys bullying everyone on these forums. In a vacuum, yes 1200 damage is better than 300 but the OP makes a great point and you don't address it AT ALL. Whoa! you scored 1200 once... and POSTED IT on these forums! Holy crap you must be the coolest guy in the world...LOL! The point is: The masses think that there should be rewards for people who help the team, without doing a bunch of useless damage to arms, and this is not being addressed by the game developers. A response of: "but it still won't change how the game is played.
Killing robots is what makes you win." is not only depressingly pathetic but is also the complacency that encourages the lack of development. GJ!

He was complaining he got a low score.

I showed him why.



Sorry you don't like truth.

[Lyoto Machida]

Tyler Valentine, on 25 August 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

I'm sick of you guys bullying everyone on these forums. In a vacuum, yes 1200 damage is better than 300 but the OP makes a great point and you don't address it AT ALL. Whoa! you scored 1200 once... and POSTED IT on these forums! Holy crap you must be the coolest guy in the world...LOL! The point is: The masses think that there should be rewards for people who help the team, without doing a bunch of useless damage to arms, and this is not being addressed by the game developers. A response of: "but it still won't change how the game is played.
Killing robots is what makes you win." is not only depressingly pathetic but is also the complacency that encourages the lack of development. GJ!

Why would you blame Mcgral18 and other people on the forums for that? PGI is the one that designed the reward structure...obviously, they don't feel the same way about the reward system rewarding non-combat functions as much as "the masses." If they did, they would have had different reward values on the PSR rollout.

Don't fret too much though...these reward figures aren't locked in stone. If you wait 9-12 months, PGI will adjust the reward structure (possibly).

[bad arcade kitty]

any system which is based on your personal score in a team game is abusable in principle and can punish team oriented gameplay

meantime elo which takes in account only the ultimate result of your actions i.e. win or loss isn't abusable and is therefore more objective when it's paired with a proper matchmaking and when it's separated by solo and group queue elo

[M4rtyr]

I have to ask... what does ELO or PSR tier even matter.. especially now that they said Tier 1's still have to be matched up against everyone for better results in matchmaking/time.

There is not structure too it, are the majority of MWO's players most concerned about their epeens?

I just want good tight balanced matches, don't care about winning or losing, or what my ranking is. Good matches is whats fun end of story and there is not reason to play MWO at this point in time other than simple fun.

Sadly I don't think it is fun because the balance is so trashed but that's besides the above point.

[bad arcade kitty]

M4rtyr, on 25 August 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

I have to ask... what does ELO or PSR tier even matter.. especially now that they said Tier 1's still have to be matched up against everyone for better results in matchmaking/time.

only in the group queue

the only queue which actually matters it's soloq

[Revis Volek]

Tyler Valentine, on 25 August 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

I'm sick of you guys bullying everyone on these forums. In a vacuum, yes 1200 damage is better than 300 but the OP makes a great point and you don't address it AT ALL. Whoa! you scored 1200 once... and POSTED IT on these forums! Holy crap you must be the coolest guy in the world...LOL! The point is: The masses think that there should be rewards for people who help the team, without doing a bunch of useless damage to arms, and this is not being addressed by the game developers. A response of: "but it still won't change how the game is played.
Killing robots is what makes you win." is not only depressingly pathetic but is also the complacency that encourages the lack of development. GJ!

Do the masses really think that or are you speaking for them? I don't know nor do i assume to...

Show me and i will agree, I don't believe anyone here has given their personal views or opinions on WHAT SHOULD be rewarded and what should not other then you and the OP. You are making assumptions that we DON'T WANT those things rewarded and i don't see anywhere here where McGral or others (aside from the mentioned) have said anything like that.

We simply replied to the OP on what WAS in fact rewarded and how as far as we could tell, Now if we want to talk about if's and buts, what if PGi changes this in 3 weeks...?

Edited by DarthRevis, 25 August 2015 - 04:23 PM.

[riverslq]

and the usual people thinking damage is the only way to help your team
uhm, yeah sure. like tag and narc don't help damage, you just barely get any points for it while your teammates soak up the cbills.
yep, its unfair.