72 replies to this topic

[Soultraxx]

1) hack meta leet tryhard
2) cheese build

Ive seen these two phrases being thrown around today in a derogitory fashion.


Now Im quite sure it is referring to

1) a player type and build
2) a build type

If I understand them correctly, they represent what is considered the current way to play/ build a mech that will produce a win ?

When these phrases are used it is almost always with anger or frustration - why is this, if this is the way to win?

Many thanks

[El Bandito]

Soultraxx, on 26 August 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

If I understand them correctly, they represent what is considered the current way to play/ build a mech that will produce a win ?

When these phrases are used it is almost always with anger or frustration - why is this, if this is the way to win?

It is the optimum way to play the mech, as long as you are good with your aim. Anger and frustration rises due to either players cannot deal with such builds, or the abundance of such builds make every match a stale experience. You are lucky to never experience the Year of Suck--2013. The meta build was strong that year, on all levels of play.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 August 2015 - 11:46 PM.

[Lily from animove]

A cheese build, maybe thats the ACH and SCR with its weird hitboxes where people think they "hit full duration" while in fact much f their shots went through holes between the sections.

[Paigan]

For the rest of the world, meta means something completely different than it does for the MWO community.

It means "after" / "beyond" / "above" in an ABSTRACT way (like meta study: a study analysing other studies. Or meta gaming: Gaining an ingame advantage by an outgame action, e.g. lag).
It does NOT just mean "super" or "uber" on some measuring scale.

I am absolutely puzzled how a term can be twisted to such an extent by such a broad community.
My only explanation is a collective intellectual defect that hinders many MWO people to recognize the abstract meaning and distinct "meta" from "super".

So, for the love of god, if you consider yourself to be at least halfway intelligent, PLEASE use the term meta in the correct way and not in the MWO community way.

Edited by Paigan, 26 August 2015 - 11:54 PM.

[Nick86]

Paigan, on 26 August 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

For the rest of the world, meta means something completely different than it does for the MWO community. It means "after" / "beyond" / "above" in an ABSTRACT way (like meta study: a study analysing other studies. Or meta gaming: Gaining an ingame advantage by an outgame action, e.g. lag). It does NOT just mean "super" or "uber" on some measuring scale. I am absolutely puzzled how a term can be twisted to such an extent by such a broad community. My only explanation is a collective intellectual defect that hinders many MWO people to recognize the abstract meaning and distinct "meta" from "super". So, for the love of god, if you consider yourself to be at least halfway intelligent, PLEASE use the term meta in the correct way and not in the MWO community way.

Or maybe, the English language, malleable as it is, allows us to use the same 'word' for different things.. Like, 'watch' and 'watch.

Hmm....'

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

People always rage about meta and cheese. These people are The Noble Ones who know how to Honourably play a video game. When the meta was peeps there was no honour equipping them. Now when meta is lasers even a Locust is meta cheese for The Noble Ones who sacrifice themselves in their TRO 3025 builds match after match for The Greater Good.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Paigan, on 26 August 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

For the rest of the world, meta means something completely different than it does for the MWO community.

I am absolutely puzzled how a term can be twisted to such an extent by such a broad community.

Bro, aside from the size of this community being 1/10 of that which watches or competes in "competitive cup stacking," this community is like the one from "The Village." Cut off from the rest of the gaming world believing this is the only one in existence. Only a few know that there's something more than what exists in this little corner of the world.

[bad arcade kitty]

Lily from animove, on 26 August 2015 - 11:49 PM, said:

A cheese build, maybe thats the ACH and SCR with its weird hitboxes where people think they "hit full duration" while in fact much f their shots went through holes between the sections.

crow has no holes between the sections

at least my crow has no... they shipped me the wrong sort of crow!
and she probably would make the wrong sort of honey

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 27 August 2015 - 12:07 AM.

[Master Pain]

hack meta leet tryhard = player that is better than you
cheese build = mech build that you haven't figured out how to counter

[Lily from animove]

Paigan, on 26 August 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

For the rest of the world, meta means something completely different than it does for the MWO community.

No it does actually not. its origin still applies correctly it's the "beyond" and the "after". it is the game thats left after you erased all non viable builds. It's the game beyong the way its meant to be played.

Actually, it's used quite accurately to its origin. Because it is gaming the game

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 August 2015 - 03:45 AM.

[bad arcade kitty]

meta is short for metagame and is used about right, albeit metagame is a more wide term... basically meta means simply 'the best way to play the game to have reliable results in certain situations'

as for 'cheesy builds', i'm in doubt too, my favorite streakcrow is often called 'cheesy' when it's definitely not the best build... so cheesy it means something like 'viable, easy to use and exploiting some weakness of enemy'

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 27 August 2015 - 12:20 AM.

[Nick86]

bad arcade kitty, on 27 August 2015 - 12:16 AM, said:

meta is short for metagame and is used about right, albeit metagame is a more wide term... basically meta means simply 'the best way to play the game to have reliable results in certain situations' as for 'cheesy builds', i'm in doubt too, my favorite streakcrow is often called 'cheesy' when it's definitely not the best build... so cheesy it means something like 'viable, easy to use and exploiting some weakness of enemy'

I just got killed by your cheesy crow.. Why am I upset that I got killed by a CheeseCrow - because I'm forced to play this event in a fuc*ing PNT 10K®. As soon as I saw your SCR I thought, don't let that be a 5x 6 Streak - and yep.. it was. CHEESY.

I'll be in mine on my clan account once I've got my 20M Cbills for this one..

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Master Pain, on 27 August 2015 - 12:11 AM, said:

hack meta leet tryhard = player that is better than you

cheese build = mech build that you haven't figured out how to counter

Alternatively

hack meta leet tryhard = that guy who only runs the very best builds

nothing wrong with it, but it is rather dull.

cheese build = anything that really effectively uses a poorly balanced aspect of the game

For example, atm cheetos with cSPL and ECM would qualify as cheesy as it has stupidly high structure quirks, clan XL, magic jesus box ECM, and the stupidly good cSPL all of which combine to give you a mech that is just leagues above all the other light mechs.

Other previous examples include, Splat cats from when splash damage still existed and it could instaslode everything, streak cats from when streak SRMs basically targeted the torso exclusively, LRMs from LRMpocalyse 2013 and 2014, Raven 3L with streaks from before BAP countered ECM and hit reg was so bad that only effective way to deal with lights was to use streaks, and of course Firestarters from when their hitboxes were broke as hell.

[Kh0rn]

Some how my Atlas that is incapable of Meta has been called meta. But when we refer to "meta" in this game all I see is the easiest solution to win a game. The top tier mech with the top tier build. That requires less effort then a tier 3-4 mech. But this is bound to be expected in a game. Human nature does take the path of least resistance while some defy that. I avoid meta at all costs some times going to the extreme of the chassis it self.

[bad arcade kitty]

Nick86, on 27 August 2015 - 12:49 AM, said:

I just got killed by your cheesy crow.. Why am I upset that I got killed by a CheeseCrow - because I'm forced to play this event in a fuc*ing PNT 10K®. As soon as I saw your SCR I thought, don't let that be a 5x 6 Streak - and yep.. it was. CHEESY.

I'll be in mine on my clan account once I've got my 20M Cbills for this one..

oh, i see

let me explain your mistake, you, in a slow light, went into a spot where you had no chance to run from, if not me you would be killed by other mechs from my team because you had me behind, my team ahead, no of your teammates to help you and was running in a narrow canyon... i could pilot any crow, you basically had no chance

btw it was a shameful game for me, i'm not joking, i took some cocktails after the work and with an unsteady hand i killed a teammate, did 83 team damage ;_; and i don't even know when!

[Paigan]

Lily from animove, on 27 August 2015 - 12:11 AM, said:

No it does actually not. its origin still applies correctly its the beyond and the after. it is the game thats left after you erased all possible but non viable builds. It's the game beyong the way its meant to be played.

It's actually used quite accurately to its origin. because it is gamign the game

You obviously have problems understanding the concept of abstractness.
Very good (or "overpowered") builds INSIDE the game and its rules are NOT abstract from or beyond the game in any way.

Not matter how often you write "no, it's accurate" (without justification, I might add).

As I said: intellectual defect.

[Alistair Winter]

"Cheese" is a tabletop term, it's frequently used in other tabletop games than Battletech, such as Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000. A "cheese build" basically means you're min-maxing in the most obvious way, usually paying no attention to the spirit of the rules or the lore of that particular universe. It's a cheap way to victory.

It has little to do with the fact that some people are more competitive than others. It's possible to have a personal ethos and still be very competitive. People just have different views on sportsmanship and how to play these kinds of games.

In a sense, it comes down to ethics. These types of discussions are not unique to MWO or Battletech, they're not even unique to video games. You'll see the same discussion in a number of different sports, even though the term 'cheese' isn't used there. In boxing, for example, people will argue about the fairness of avoiding engagements when you're up on points, either by running away or by holding your opponent (e.g. Mayweather vs Pacman). To many people, it's a cheap way to victory that goes against the spirit of the rules, even though it's not strictly against the rules.

[Soultraxx]

Hello.

Im the OP.

Thank you for all the replies - very informative and adds another piece towards completing the jigsaw that is the MWO puzzle.

Many thanks

[Steinar Bergstol]

Alistair Winter, on 27 August 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

"Cheese" is a tabletop term, it's frequently used in other tabletop games than Battletech, such as Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000. A "cheese build" basically means you're min-maxing in the most obvious way, usually paying no attention to the spirit of the rules or the lore of that particular universe. It's a cheap way to victory.

It has little to do with the fact that some people are more competitive than others. It's possible to have a personal ethos and still be very competitive. People just have different views on sportsmanship and how to play these kinds of games.

In a sense, it comes down to ethics. These types of discussions are not unique to MWO or Battletech, they're not even unique to video games. You'll see the same discussion in a number of different sports, even though the term 'cheese' isn't used there. In boxing, for example, people will argue about the fairness of avoiding engagements when you're up on points, either by running away or by holding your opponent (e.g. Mayweather vs Pacman). To many people, it's a cheap way to victory that goes against the spirit of the rules, even though it's not strictly against the rules.

Another example can be taken from my weekly TT roleplaying group, a bunch of guys I've played RPGs and tabletop games with since we were all in our late teens and early 20's in the 90's. One of those players will bend, twist and exploit every rule and loophole to create his characters, coming up with the most powerful build possible no matter the setting or the intent of the rules. He is a self-admitted cheesemonger. Meanwhile another of our players always creates quirky characters from rarely used classes and takes into account the setting and background every time.

Both are viable ways to make a character. One, however, obviously results regularly in far more powerful end products than the other, and every now and again this does lead to internal frustration in the Group.

[MechWarrior3671771]

We called them Powergamers back in my day. Every game has balance issues, and every game has players that exploit those balance issues to get an edge on the competition. I know because I was one. There's nothing wrong with it, but like all things it can be taken to extremes.

My team back at MWL did just that, and we went something like 114-2-7 in our ladder league. But the downside was that, while we spent most of 4 years at the #1 rank, we ended up occupying barren terrain because other teams stopped challenging us.

I'm reformed now I don't want to work the game, I want to play it.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 27 August 2015 - 02:13 AM.