74 replies to this topic

[nehebkau]

Screech, on 30 August 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

A passive/active radar system would fix this whole issue but they never talk about that, they just try to nerf ECM.

Why did they never jump on this?

[topgun505]

If ECM were removed?

Hmmm.

What would happen? I'll take a stab.

Loads of players would start boating LRMs again. Some will just be experimenting, some will be running it as their go to mech. A few pilots will be daring and take a light with TAG and NARC. A few more will take medium or heavy streak anti light builds specially to nuke said spotters.

Everyone else will be in pure sniper builds so they can get to cover and plant there the rest of the game. Brawling will largely die (unless on a map with lots of cover that is tall enough to block LRM volleys).

So the games will become largely static sniper fests.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Yeah game would be just better, only noobs are afraid of lurmagedon, that will not happen anyway.

[Lykaon]

I have never been fond of how ECM was portrayed in MWo.ECM just seems to offer way to much for costing so little in mass,crit slots or even player interactivity.Slap on an ECM and go!

ECM as it is now is the big stick of information warfare all other info warfare tools serve to attempt to put ECM in check because it's a monsterously over featured beast of a hamfisted attempt at an info warfare tool.

And just look at the history of ecm.

Closed develpment test determined ECM was way to potent to be allowed on every and any chassis.Before ECM was made public the Devs decided ECM would be restricted to specific chassis to prevent over saturation and ease of synergy with certain builds.

Later it was determined that having ECM on these restricted chassis without a fixed slot was also an issue so ECM was given a dedicated location on the select few with ECM capability.

The players continued to complain about ECM so several "countermeasures" were concocted by granting additional abilities to preexisting equipment.TAG,PPCs,NARC,BAP and UAVs were granted countermeasure abilities to attempt to curb ECM.

All of these "fixes" actually did nothing directly to ECM features.ECM kept all of it's powers intact as information warfare began it's coarse of revolving entirely around ECM and how to deal with it.

Finaly one ECM feature was removed.ECM would no longer mask friendly mech icons and indicators on your mech's HUD.This only took about a year to get done,probably because of all of the other modifications being done to anything but ECM to curb ECM.

Enter the modern age of ECM for pretty much everyone due to a considerable increase to ECM capable chassis.This has in effect undone the very first ECM nerf of limiting ECM in the first place.Now it is possible to field some very flexable ECM capable mechs coupled with the ECM bubble range and ...fix one is undone.

In my opinion ECM and info warfare (along with LRMs and how they factor into info warfare) need a bottom up rebuild.

[Lykaon]

topgun505, on 02 September 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

If ECM were removed?

Hmmm.

What would happen? I'll take a stab.

Loads of players would start boating LRMs again. Some will just be experimenting, some will be running it as their go to mech. A few pilots will be daring and take a light with TAG and NARC. A few more will take medium or heavy streak anti light builds specially to nuke said spotters.

Everyone else will be in pure sniper builds so they can get to cover and plant there the rest of the game. Brawling will largely die (unless on a map with lots of cover that is tall enough to block LRM volleys).

So the games will become largely static sniper fests.

Well we had LRMs and no ECM back in closed beta and this was not the case.

The pre ECM dynamic was this.

Light mechs would rove out to locate the enemy while LRM support took up firing possitions.

Targets would be identified by spotters and LRM support would fire on target.

Enemy mediums and lights would be out seeking to sack LRM support and spotters resulting in light vs light brawling as spotters were engaged by enemy mechs and defending lights protected vulnerable LRM mechs..

Meanwhile the rest of the team would press into the enemy to mitigate or remove long range missile advantages by closing to "knife fight" range and brawl it out.

We didn't have radar derpers or missile launch warnings no proliferation of multi AMS mechs (we had two one Atlas and one Stalker)

What we did have were some very strong role warfare insentives.

Fire support with LRMs because there wasn't a "Jesusbox" to turn your weapons off.

Spotter for LRMs because there wasn't a "Jesusbox" discouraging using LRMs so there would be LRMs on the field.

High speed harasser because there wasn't a "Jesusbox" discouraging LRM use so there would be spotters and LRM support that need supression on the field.

Blitz Brawler to close the line and mitigate the long range edge of LRMs.

Ranged direct fire support to cover Blitz Brawlers as they closed with the enemy.

Even without ECM we currently have plenty of counters for LRMs the problem is ECM has caused these techniques to become "Lostech".We have become lazy sitting under our E-war umbrellas and we no longer think about things like counter battery fire,light harasser mechs sacking the Lurms,packing an AMS or even charging the enemy to remove the LURMs by closing into min range.

P.S. one of the best counters for a dug in sniper is LRM suppression.So I doubt long range sniping would become the go to tactic to counter a tactic that is effectivley a counter to it.

Edited by Lykaon, 02 September 2015 - 03:02 PM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Lykaon, on 02 September 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Well we had LRMs and no ECM back in closed beta and this was not the case.

That's because lights and mediums were protected by the lag shield and we didn't have engine caps. The only reason you could play aggressively at all is because once you broke 120kph the majority of the salvo wouldn't even touch you.

AMS was also massively more prevalent because it was the only defensive measure slower mechs could take against the LRM boats that were in literally every match. People deathballed in 12mans because LRMs were good enough to make AMS stacking prudent.

And while LRMs were powerful as a pug weapon in closed beta, the platforms themselves sucked compared to what we have today. Outright removal of ECM would make quirked LRM spammers like the Kintaro, Mad Dog and Hunchback variants outrageously good- there was no analogue to those in CBT.

Edited by vnlk65n, 02 September 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[Deathlike]

Rebas Kradd, on 29 August 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

Something something tactical gameplay something something four pillars something something Paul.

While it's fun talking about Paul, he ironically was no way responsible for the original incarnation of ECM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

The game would be 100x better. Any issues generated by its removal could be quickly and easily addressed with BALANCE. Then once the game had been successfully repaired, PGI could restore it in a fashion consistent with its cost.

[Khobai]

stealth isnt really the issue IMO. I think for the most part were fine with stealth being in the game.

what were not fine with is a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that not only stealths an entire team but does a bunch of other crazy stuff as well. the cost of taking ECM is trivial and highly disproportionate to the benefits it provides. ECM in its current state is by far the most overpowered thing in the game.

conversely something like null signature system, which weighs several tons, takes up quite a few crit slots, and generates lots of heat but gives a mech stealth would be perfectly fine.

another example, passive sensors: if you could switch off your sensor targeting so you didnt get doritos or red boxes, and didnt get detailed target info, and couldnt share target info with your teammates in exchange for some stealth benefit, again thatd probably be fine.

stealth is fine when the drawbacks equal the benefits. stealth is not fine when its essentially free.


Things ECM should do:
-double missile lock-on times for you and nearby allies
-target info gathering penalty
-counter electronics such as BAP, artemis, TAG while theyre inside ECM's radius
-counter other ECM while in counter mode
-possibly provide a small stealth benefit to the mech its equipped on (but not nearby friendly mechs)
-possible addition of a "ghost ecm mode" that creates false radar signatures, which would be enabled by either by a recon skill tree or module.

Things ECM should NOT do:
-super aoe stealth bubble
-prevent missiles from locking on entirely
-should not hard counter anything in general because hard counters are bad game design

Quote

A passive/active radar system would fix this whole issue but they never talk about that, they just try to nerf ECM.

It wouldnt fix the whole issue. Passive sensors would only be worth partial stealth at best. You would still have to implement other means of stealth like stealth armor, null signature system, etc... so if you want the benefits of FULL STEALTH youd have to pay out the ass for it in tonnage and other drawbacks.

And actually I would implement things like null signature system through skill trees. Only players that choose the recon skill tree would be able to use stealth equipment like null signature system. And by doing that theyd be giving up equipment unlocks from other skill trees like the assault/strike skill tree or the support/command skill tree. That would give us proper role warfare.

Edited by Khobai, 03 September 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[RedMercury]

I also like the idea of dumbfire, fast LRMs, but with an additional dumbfire, arcing trajectory mode for indirect fire. I discussed LRMs and SRM mechanics in another thread http://mwomercs.com/...ssrm-mechanics/. Such a change would allow ECM to be balanced without making LRMs or SSRMs overpowered.

Edited by RedMercury, 03 September 2015 - 06:55 AM.

[ApolloKaras]

They just need to remove the cloak from ECM... Have it counter Narc, Artemis, and give a targeting info gathering penalty of 25%.

[Yokaiko]

topgun505, on 02 September 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

If ECM were removed?

Hmmm.

What would happen? I'll take a stab.

Loads of players would start boating LRMs again. Some will just be experimenting, some will be running it as their go to mech. A few pilots will be daring and take a light with TAG and NARC. A few more will take medium or heavy streak anti light builds specially to nuke said spotters.

Everyone else will be in pure sniper builds so they can get to cover and plant there the rest of the game. Brawling will largely die (unless on a map with lots of cover that is tall enough to block LRM volleys).

So the games will become largely static sniper fests.

I would welcome the days of once again terrorizing 4 LRM boats per game with a light.

[Lugh]

nehebkau, on 02 September 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

Why did they never jump on this?

Short answer? They are VERY bad at Math.

And since passive radar would require them to do some physics based math to determine Radar signature size based on mech size and geometry, they couldn't be bothered.

[Yosharian]

What is the point of these ECM threads? They have been done to death. The ECM solution is so ******* easy and obvious. Make ECM less of a 'binary' countering system; instead of hard-countering locks it should soft-counter them.

Regardless, the entire information warfare system needs a huge overhaul/revamp, and that isn't going to happen for a long-ass time. Commenting on ECM in the interim is just a ******* waste of time.

Just saying.