116 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Arctourus, on 31 August 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

SRMS and MRMs and rockets all required aiming. LRMs and streaks had locks. That's the difference in the weapon systems. The way they lock could be tweaked, certainly, but the fact that they do lock needs to remain a staple of the weapons system.

Why?

[Arctourus]

ssrms without locks are srms. No point in having the system otherwise.

How dumb would lrms look if they flew as fast as a ppc/ac/gauss?

I know people argue lore this or lore that, but that's simply what these weapons are: Lock on versions of a weapon system family. Removing the lock means removing the weapons, and in a game that needs MORE weapon systems to freshen game play and strategy, going backwards is pointless.

Personally, I'd love to see rockets added....a longer range direct fire barrage of doom. Even MRMs would be great.

Like I said, tweaking how they lock is fine, but lock they must or disappear.

[Hotthedd]

Arctourus, on 31 August 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

ssrms without locks are srms. No point in having the system otherwise.

How dumb would lrms look if they flew as fast as a ppc/ac/gauss?

I know people argue lore this or lore that, but that's simply what these weapons are: Lock on versions of a weapon system family. Removing the lock means removing the weapons, and in a game that needs MORE weapon systems to freshen game play and strategy, going backwards is pointless.

Personally, I'd love to see rockets added....a longer range direct fire barrage of doom. Even MRMs would be great.

Like I said, tweaking how they lock is fine, but lock they must or disappear.

Did you read the OP's post?

SSRMs and LRMs can be GUIDED munitions without having them be LOCK-ON munitions.

Nobody is saying they should not be GUIDED.

One big problem with the lock-on system is that they do not need to be aimed.
The other big problem (and why they are rare in upper tiers) is because they CAN'T be aimed.

Adding a layer of difficulty, while simultaneously improving their utility seems like a win/win to me.

[Arctourus]

From SARNA.....bold/underline is added for emphasis

First introduced in 2400 by the Terran Hegemony, Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these self-guided missiles are unique for using a special armor-piercing explosive warhead. The development of a metal composite/high explosive mixture allowed for the warhead to be made entirely of high-explosive material; this same feature was later used to construct the missile's frame as well. The result were warheads which had the same destructive capability as older warheads that were four times as long, allowing for more missiles to be carried and fired. LRMs are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles while causing less damage. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve their superior range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.^[

[Kjudoon]

Quote

How dumb would lrms look if they flew as fast as a ppc/ac/gauss?

We started looking at dumb in the rear view mirror the instant an AC round went faster than lightning... aka PPCs.

I will say this, for all those people who want LRMs to be nerfed, I'd be fine with leaving them as is if I had a competent MRM to throw in.

Say 600-750m range, no lock, moves at 700m/s, arms instantly, no arc. I'd probably cut down on my LRMs and arm half with those instead.

Even better would be giving us Mech Mortars as a ballistic indirect fire weapon that moves quickly but has only one correction point as they are semi guided and has a very high arc so you have to really watch the overhead cover.

The problem for a lot of players seems to be the inability to think beyond their crosshairs and a flat plain with no overhead worries. As someone who has driven professionally, being aware of overhead hazards, even in a game is no big deal.

[Hotthedd]

Arctourus, on 31 August 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

From SARNA.....bold/underline is added for emphasis

First introduced in 2400 by the Terran Hegemony, Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these self-guided missiles are unique for using a special armor-piercing explosive warhead. The development of a metal composite/high explosive mixture allowed for the warhead to be made entirely of high-explosive material; this same feature was later used to construct the missile's frame as well. The result were warheads which had the same destructive capability as older warheads that were four times as long, allowing for more missiles to be carried and fired. LRMs are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles while causing less damage. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve their superior range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.^[

Could you bold the part about their lock-on capability? Or is that the only way you interpret self-guided?

Even self-guided does not mean "unassisted by the pilot", or "fire and forget".

Nothing in the suggestions (I made, at least) would nullify the ability to fire at an angle and have indirect fire.

[Kjudoon]

Arctourus, on 31 August 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

From SARNA.....bold/underline is added for emphasis

First introduced in 2400 by the Terran Hegemony, Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these self-guided missiles are unique for using a special armor-piercing explosive warhead. The development of a metal composite/high explosive mixture allowed for the warhead to be made entirely of high-explosive material; this same feature was later used to construct the missile's frame as well. The result were warheads which had the same destructive capability as older warheads that were four times as long, allowing for more missiles to be carried and fired. LRMs are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles while causing less damage. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve their superior range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.^[

The LRMHatorz just don't care how lore it is. They want it nerfed to garbage or removed from game.

Quote

Even self-guided does not mean "unassisted by the pilot", or "fire and forget".

Now that's just being deliberately obstinate. Self-guided means 'able to guide itself'. What does that mean? Unassisted by outside control... aka fire and forget.

Edited by Kjudoon, 31 August 2015 - 08:08 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Kjudoon, on 31 August 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

The LRMHatorz just don't care how lore it is. They want it nerfed to garbage or removed from game.

Actually I am a very big fan of the lore, and want MW:O to remain as true to the lore as possible.

I would also like to see LRMs as a viable weapon without having to boat them or rely on others to be most effective.

[Hotthedd]

Kjudoon, on 31 August 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

Now that's just being deliberately obstinate. Self-guided means 'able to guide itself'. What does that mean? Unassisted by outside control... aka fire and forget.

Not exactly. It means the missile is able to make course corrections (that is why they have fins) by a self contained system.

I am not being obstinate. The definition does not have to be as narrow as you make it.

[Chados]

Winterburn, on 31 August 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

Players in MWO come in two types. There are those that complain that LRM requires no skill and is OP and there are others who actually know how to play on LRM boat.

LRMs can carry a game, but it largely depends on team tactics. If your PUG decides to fight on an unfavourable ground or you try to reposition yourself for a better line of fire and run into enemy lights, you're done for. Poptarting and gauss vomiting, on the other hand, gives a much more reliable result.

This. It's so perfect.

[Kjudoon]

Hotthedd, on 31 August 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

Actually I am a very big fan of the lore, and want MW:O to remain as true to the lore as possible.

I would also like to see LRMs as a viable weapon without having to boat them or rely on others to be most effective.

Hothedd, then you're an oddity. I respect that.

BTW, you could easily turn LRMs into a less boated weapon by fixing AMS. that's the real reason people had to go to boating. Not ECM. When I could bring a single LRM10 into the game and have it all get to the the target, it's worth the tonnage. If it's going to evaporate before it gets to a target, it's worthless. Only missiles have this problem.

[Lugh]

Hotthedd, on 31 August 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

Did you read the OP's post?

SSRMs and LRMs can be GUIDED munitions without having them be LOCK-ON munitions.

Nobody is saying they should not be GUIDED.

One big problem with the lock-on system is that they do not need to be aimed.
The other big problem (and why they are rare in upper tiers) is because they CAN'T be aimed.

Adding a layer of difficulty, while simultaneously improving their utility seems like a win/win to me.

They CAN be aimed and fired without a lock, the trouble is that doing so is so incredibly inefficient, it's deemed not worth the effort.

[Hotthedd]

Winterburn, on 31 August 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

Players in MWO come in two types. There are those that complain that LRM requires no skill and is OP and there are others who actually know how to play on LRM boat.

LRMs can carry a game, but it largely depends on team tactics. If your PUG decides to fight on an unfavourable ground or you try to reposition yourself for a better line of fire and run into enemy lights, you're done for. Poptarting and gauss vomiting, on the other hand, gives a much more reliable result.

I do not fit into either category.

I freely admit that boating LRMs+a skilled pilot= bad day for the enemy.

That is not the problem.

The problem is that the lock-on mechanic forces a bad choice:
Either nerf the weapon due to the ease of use, making it near worthless for direct-fire or as a stand-alone weapon;
or make it a viable weapon that becomes too powerful because of the lock-on mechanic.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 29 August 2015 - 11:22 PM, said:

LRMs -- Once locked, fire and forget--no need to keep the cursor on target. ECM will not counter lock, only increases lock time, and decreases target acquiring range.

I do want to point out (if it hadn't been already) that LRMs also aimed for where you cursor was on time of firing just like SSRMs.

You didn't really clarify the biggest difference however, targeting box gaining lock versus having to hold the reticle on the mech itself to gain lock. Trying to hold a reticle on a bobbing light mech at 900m for 2.0 seconds (with every bit of time spent of target reducing lock strength) made using missiles more difficult than spamming lasers (that were PPFLD hitscan weapons).

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 31 August 2015 - 08:40 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Lugh, on 31 August 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

They CAN be aimed and fired without a lock, the trouble is that doing so is so incredibly inefficient, it's deemed not worth the effort.

That is precisely why they should be able to be guided by the pilot (using the reticle).

[Hotthedd]

WM Quicksilver, on 31 August 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

I do want to point out (if it hadn't been already) that LRMs also aimed for where you cursor was on time of firing just like SSRMs.

You didn't really clarify the biggest difference however, targeting box gaining lock versus having to hold the reticle on the mech itself to gain lock. Trying to hold a reticle on a bobbing light mech at 900m for 2.0 seconds (with every bit of time spent of target reducing lock strength) made using missiles more difficult than spamming lasers (that were PPFLD hitscan weapons).

That is harder to do up close, but much easier from a distance. (and LRMs are long-range weapons after all)

[M4rtyr]

Vlad Ward, on 31 August 2015 - 03:04 AM, said:

This is a competitive PvP online first person shooter. Aiming kinda comes with the territory.

I mean, you can keep the super nerfed auto-aim weapons we have now, but they'll never be worth taking outside of the underhive. That's the price they pay for being auto-aim.

A different launching/operating mechanic that requires aiming to use correctly is the only way you'd ever see LRMs brought up to a level where they have a reason to exist in mid or high level play.

Competitive my ass, the games not even in a finished state and the balance is trash. Yeah they hold tournys but thats more wishfull thinking than anything else.

If you want a competitive game then lets have allt he weapons be on equal footing, or at least close to it. But most likely the 'competitive' crowd doesn't want that because lazer vomit and gauss are too easy when they don't have to deal with other viable loadouts.

That being said, I don't like the current setup with LRM's and streaks myself, but don't like that ideas in the OP either.

Edited by M4rtyr, 31 August 2015 - 08:49 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Kjudoon, on 31 August 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

Hothedd, then you're an oddity. I respect that.

BTW, you could easily turn LRMs into a less boated weapon by fixing AMS. that's the real reason people had to go to boating. Not ECM. When I could bring a single LRM10 into the game and have it all get to the the target, it's worth the tonnage. If it's going to evaporate before it gets to a target, it's worthless. Only missiles have this problem.

It seems I AM outside of the box when it comes to most topics .

In addition to the suggestions that have been made I would:
Have I.S. LRMs fire in groups of 5, cLRMs streaming as they currently do.
Fix AMS (as you say), but AMS functions as it does BECAUSE of the lock-on mechanic.
Make ECM do what it is supposed to do, instead of how it functions now (because of the lock-on mechanic)
Get rid of the "incoming missiles" warning (that exists because of the lock-on mechanic)

In short, a total re-work that is neither a nerf nor a buff.

[Kjudoon]

Hotthedd, on 31 August 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

That is precisely why they should be able to be guided by the pilot (using the reticle).

Then the speed of the missiles must go up many multiples and still arc.

[Scar Glamour]

Hotthedd, on 31 August 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

I do not fit into either category.

I freely admit that boating LRMs+a skilled pilot= bad day for the enemy.

That is not the problem.

The problem is that the lock-on mechanic forces a bad choice:
Either nerf the weapon due to the ease of use, making it near worthless for direct-fire or as a stand-alone weapon;
or make it a viable weapon that becomes too powerful because of the lock-on mechanic.

The thing is LRMs are not easy to use at all. You do not have to aim, true, but you have to plot the trajectory in your head to make sure there are no obstacles when you fire indirectly. You have to position yourself carefully and pick large targets, preferably moving directly towards you or away from you. Otherwise even with a lock half your missles will miss. You have to be aware of where your enemies are not to get separated or taken down by a sneaky light. Or a sneaky heavy.

Another thing is MWO forces you to boat. If you go Ballistics you boat Ballistics. If you do laser vomit, you boat lasers. If you brawl, you boat SRMs. With the exception of an occasional LL on a ballistic Crab having different weapon systems that allow you to engage at different ranges simply does not exist. LRMing makes you Mech artillery piece. And artillery pieces do not sport a frontal gun just for versatility's sake.