116 replies to this topic

[M4rtyr]

Vlad Ward, on 31 August 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

How exactly?

After all, they require everything that LRMs require - positioning, situational awareness, topographical insight, range countermeasures - but they also require aiming.

LRMs don't. They require fewer skills than direct fire weaponry. That's why they underperform, because balancing them to the point where they're comparable weapons systems is disingenuous.

Why do LRM's require less skills because you need all those listed, unless you want to waste ammo. but on top of that Lazers get the joy of pinpoint damage, LRM's spread no matter how good you are.

The only reasons it's said you don't need skill with LRM is because it locks and IDF. Got news for you, its a hell of alot hard to lock a target and hit it with IDF thanks to ECM, terrain, spotters required, etc etc,. Lazers if you see it you hit it.

[Vlad Ward]

M4rtyr, on 31 August 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Why do LRM's require less skills because you need all those listed, unless you want to waste ammo. but on top of that Lazers get the joy of pinpoint damage, LRM's spread no matter how good you are.

The only reasons it's said you don't need skill with LRM is because it locks and IDF. Got news for you, its a hell of alot hard to lock a target and hit it with IDF thanks to ECM, terrain, spotters required, etc etc,. Lazers if you see it you hit it.

You're not grasping my meaning.

People keep listing all these crazy skills necessary to be a good LRM boat.

My point is that literally every Mech in the game requires the use of those skills. Having direct fire weapons does not mean that you don't have to position well, be aware of your surroundings, or have countermeasures in place for targets outside your ideal range.

The only thing difference is that all of these direct-fire weapons require aiming. LRMs don't. It requires n-1 skills to use. There is nothing an LRM boat has to do that every other Mech in the game doesn't also have to do to be piloted well.

This is why they're weak. PGI knows they're weak. They will keep them weak because making them strong isn't fair to everyone else. No one gets a free pass on aiming.

Also literally no other weapon in the game can even attempt to damage things indirectly. You talk about how hard it is to get locks that way as if anyone else has it any better.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 31 August 2015 - 01:43 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Hotthedd, on 31 August 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

Because having both lock-on AND a 90 degree angle of attack took away the best defense against LRMs.

I say they took the wrong thing away....

Show me a game where you do good damage with LRMs when you dont use locks and only fire without them.

Yeah cause they dont work like that and wouldnt if you took the lock away. Take away the lock and you might as well remove them from the game given that theyd just be big srms at that point. Ppl already enbgage at half the range

[Vlad Ward]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 August 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

Show me a game where you do good damage with LRMs when you dont use locks and only fire without them.

Yeah cause they dont work like that and wouldnt if you took the lock away. Take away the lock and you might as well remove them from the game given that theyd just be big srms at that point. Ppl already enbgage at half the range

Take away the lock and PGI would have the ability to buff them properly without making everything else not worth the effort.

Extreme high velocity, 70~80 degree angle of attack small area bombardment missiles would be a hell of a lot more effective than what we have now. They would also be great at hitting cockpits the way Arty does and causing all kinds of rage.

[Obadiah333]

I like the idea for the ssrms. Here's what I think would be neat for LRM's. That useless, 3 ton hunk of junk that no one in the history of this game has mounted - the command console. Mechs equipped with a command console can use targeting data from other mechs that have a visual (line of sight) to target enemy mechs with ECM. It would give a purpose to the command console and would allow LRM's to be effective even against ECM mechs. Granted, there will still need to be eyes on the ECM mech, so you can't just pick them up on radar and fire away, someone still needs to have eyes on them. Just a thought.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Vlad Ward, on 31 August 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

Take away the lock and PGI would have the ability to buff them properly without making everything else not worth the effort.

Extreme high velocity, 70~80 degree angle of attack small area bombardment missiles would be a hell of a lot more effective than what we have now. They would also be great at hitting cockpits the way Arty does and causing all kinds of rage.

Theyd be completely worthless in THIS game other than at extreme close range. They already are worthless at other than medium range anyways. Noone actually uses them at long range and most of the buffs for them require LOS anyways.

Obadiah333, on 31 August 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

I like the idea for the ssrms. Here's what I think would be neat for LRM's. That useless, 3 ton hunk of junk that no one in the history of this game has mounted - the command console. Mechs equipped with a command console can use targeting data from other mechs that have a visual (line of sight) to target enemy mechs with ECM. It would give a purpose to the command console and would allow LRM's to be effective even against ECM mechs. Granted, there will still need to be eyes on the ECM mech, so you can't just pick them up on radar and fire away, someone still needs to have eyes on them. Just a thought.

so with a command console theyd break ecm (woo) and otherwise be just as they are now

oh I forgot the part where you screw lights out of a role. Scouting

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 31 August 2015 - 01:56 PM.

[M4rtyr]

Vlad Ward, on 31 August 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

You're not grasping my meaning.

People keep listing all these crazy skills necessary to be a good LRM boat.

My point is that literally every Mech in the game requires the use of those skills. Having direct fire weapons does not mean that you don't have to position well, be aware of your surroundings, or have countermeasures in place for targets outside your ideal range.

The only thing difference is that all of these direct-fire weapons require aiming. LRMs don't. It requires n-1 skills to use. There is nothing an LRM boat has to do that every other Mech in the game doesn't also have to do to be piloted well.

This is why they're weak. PGI knows they're weak. They will keep them weak because making them strong isn't fair to everyone else. No one gets a free pass on aiming.

Also literally no other weapon in the game can even attempt to damage things indirectly. You talk about how hard it is to get locks that way as if anyone else has it any better.

It's not n-1 skills... Direct fire weapons don't need take into account ECM, LRM's do because of the lock. And the only reason LRM's are weak is because of ECM, Say what you want about terrain stopping them. But if you are hiding behind a rock you can't so any damage either. A smart lurm boat won't fire without knowing he can hit just like a lazervomit boat.

So they don't need any less or better skill.. but LRM's would be OP if not for ECM (not to say ECM is a good thing lol). IDF - ECM = mass destruction. But yet you take IDF away and they become a completely pointless weapon choice. And I don't think you could make them able to IDF without locks. Would take far to much to figure out where you're hitting and impossible to combine that with predicting enemy movements.

So overall LRM's are just broken. They are ultra nerfed thanks to ECM, but take ECM away and they can be insanely OP in the hands of a good pilot. So they need a ground up redesign. Streaks aren't so bad but still semi questionable.

[Obadiah333]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 August 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

Theyd be completely worthless in THIS game other than at extreme close range. They already are worthless at other than medium range anyways. Noone actually uses them at long range and most of the buffs for them require LOS anyways.



so with a command console theyd break ecm (woo) and otherwise be just as they are now

oh I forgot the part where you screw lights out of a role. Scouting

Or, maybe give them a reason to scout and keep eyes on the ecm mech so that the command console LRM mech can get a lock. The command console doesn't auto break ecm on it's own. It uses the targeting data from other mechs that have line of sight on the ecm mech. The Line of Sight part of it might have eluded you since I only stated it twice in my first post.

[Chados]

Hotthedd, on 31 August 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

That is harder to do up close, but much easier from a distance. (and LRMs are long-range weapons after all)

I disagree. I've done blindfire at 900 meters. It's incredibly difficult. The only reason I registered a hit is because the target was trying to snipe me and wasn't moving, and didn't realize I was shooting at him til the salvo hit him. Most of the time blindfiring is best used for area jnterdiction, because LRMs impacting on a ridgeline will keep snipers on the reverse slope or behind buildings. The main reason my LRM hit percentage is in the high 20s is because I use them in just this way when I can't get a lock, so my team can push without getting sniped.

[Vlad Ward]

M4rtyr, on 31 August 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

It's not n-1 skills... Direct fire weapons don't need take into account ECM, LRM's do because of the lock. And the only reason LRM's are weak is because of ECM, Say what you want about terrain stopping them. But if you are hiding behind a rock you can't so any damage either. A smart lurm boat won't fire without knowing he can hit just like a lazervomit boat.

So they don't need any less or better skill.. but LRM's would be OP if not for ECM (not to say ECM is a good thing lol). IDF - ECM = mass destruction. But yet you take IDF away and they become a completely pointless weapon choice. And I don't think you could make them able to IDF without locks. Would take far to much to figure out where you're hitting and impossible to combine that with predicting enemy movements.

So overall LRM's are just broken. They are ultra nerfed thanks to ECM, but take ECM away and they can be insanely OP in the hands of a good pilot. So they need a ground up redesign. Streaks aren't so bad but still semi questionable.

Eh? ECM? ECM is there specifically to bring LRMs into line below the effectiveness of Direct-fire. Remove ECM and PGI will just have to decrease missile velocity and damage until they're worse than direct fire again. Because they will never, ever allow an auto-aim weapon to be as effective as weapons that require aiming in an FPS.

Laser boats don't get red doritos over ECM mechs either, by the way. Hitting ranged ECM targets requires use of the Mark I Eyeball Targeting System.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 August 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

Theyd be completely worthless in THIS game other than at extreme close range. They already are worthless at other than medium range anyways. Noone actually uses them at long range and most of the buffs for them require LOS anyways.

Nah. It'd require some tweaks to how the game calculates target ranging, but they could be useful if they were essentially a faster, no-red-smoke, highly concentrated Arty strike.

[M4rtyr]

Vlad Ward, on 31 August 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

Eh? ECM? ECM is there specifically to bring LRMs into line below the effectiveness of Direct-fire. Remove ECM and PGI will just have to decrease missile velocity and damage until they're worse than direct fire again. Because they will never, ever allow an auto-aim weapon to be as effective as weapons that require aiming in an FPS.

Laser boats don't get red doritos over ECM mechs either, by the way. Hitting ranged ECM targets requires use of the Mark I Eyeball Targeting System.



Nah. It'd require some tweaks to how the game calculates target ranging, but they could be useful if they were essentially a faster, no-red-smoke, highly concentrated Arty strike.

You didn't say anything I already had Vlad... BTW, nothing personal but if interesting because I always hated Vlad.

ECM keeps LRM's in line and I have no problem with LRM's being lesser to direct fire weapons thanks to IDF. But they have to fix ECM first (ie remove the sh!t until they come up with something decent).

As far as ECM, direct fire, and the red dorito... Yeah even seeing the red dorito takes the good old MK1 eye-ball, especially seeing if they are actually in a spot you can hit them. But just because to don't get the red dorito doesn't mean anything it's not like its that hard to see most, especially with zoom. LRM's are just useless for anything other than IDF which is fine, but that makes ECM a hard counter. For direct fire ECM is just an annoyance, at best.

[Chados]

Obadiah333, on 31 August 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

Or, maybe give them a reason to scout and keep eyes on the ecm mech so that the command console LRM mech can get a lock. The command console doesn't auto break ecm on it's own. It uses the targeting data from other mechs that have line of sight on the ecm mech. The Line of Sight part of it might have eluded you since I only stated it twice in my first post.

You'll never get this kind of coordination in any PuG group. Ever. No light is going to do this unless they're part of an organized team that's sync dropping or in group queue or CW, PuG lights are all off shooting others in the back to get their own kills. It's everyone for herself out there and if you're not close-supporting the brawl and suppressing snipers for the brawlers you're going to lose. And you can't get people to hold locks for indirect fire from any distance as it is-any experienced LRM carrier knows she has to get her own locks via direct LoS using Artemis anyway in most matches and shoot from inside 300-400 meters so you have a chance of unmasking an ECM up close with BAP. Outside 400 meters you might get one salvo in the air but the lock will drop because of radar derp, ECM, or your teammate changing targets, before the missiles land, and if the enemy mounts AMS only part of the salvo will hit. All this has to be considered when you shoot, plus positioning issues.

If laservomit or gauss rifles worked like this and had these kinds of hard countermeasures to contend with, the howls would be heard all over the MWO nation. How about things like smoke generators to block out advanced zoom? Aerosol dispensers or reflective or ablative armor to cut the effectiveness of lasers? PPC hits disrupting gauss rifle mechanics? EMP warheads for LRMs? Lock on jam mechanics for LRMs to target active ECM emitters?

(Insert sound of crickets chirping)

Thought not.

[Vlad Ward]

M4rtyr, on 31 August 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

You didn't say anything I already had Vlad... BTW, nothing personal but if interesting because I always hated Vlad.

ECM keeps LRM's in line and I have no problem with LRM's being lesser to direct fire weapons thanks to IDF. But they have to fix ECM first (ie remove the sh!t until they come up with something decent).

As far as ECM, direct fire, and the red dorito... Yeah even seeing the red dorito takes the good old MK1 eye-ball, especially seeing if they are actually in a spot you can hit them. But just because to don't get the red dorito doesn't mean anything it's not like its that hard to see most, especially with zoom. LRM's are just useless for anything other than IDF which is fine, but that makes ECM a hard counter. For direct fire ECM is just an annoyance, at best.

So you'd be cool if they removed ECM entirely but reduced LRM damage per missile by 30%, eliminated LRM screen shake, and reduced LRM velocity by 25%?

Because right now, having to bring a TAG to use mediocre missiles against ECM'd targets seems a hell of a lot better than being able to fire awful, awful missiles at any target.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 31 August 2015 - 02:30 PM.

[Midax]

I like your SSRM suggestion. It would fit the way they work in TT perfectly.

LRMs how ever need some sort of guidance, but they still need some sort of aiming skill beyond just keeping a lock box on a enemy. Reticle tracking would allow for this. Reticle tracking also allows for indirect fire by curving shots around obstacles.

[Cementi]

LRM's are a team work orientated support weapon.

Naturally your average FPSer has trouble grasping that things other than their KDA and damage matter. Hence why they hate LRM's so much especially since they might have to sacrafice 1.5 tons to defend against them. That could be used for an extra 1.5 tons of ammo they won't use.

Are they weak? *meh* yes and no. Go in with a group prepared to use them and set up for it and they can be nasty. Even with ECM in it's current state. Go in solo as a missle boat and unless your self tagging/narcing good luck useing them. Even then they become a challenge to use. They also have another value that FPSer's do not understand because it does not show up on the scoreboard......suppression. Nothing gets a sniper off of a ridge faster than *WARNING INCOMING MISSLES*. Sure you can argue that sniping back has that affect, and while it can often there are sections of the maps where the geometry does not match correctly where you can shoot over but they hit the terrain in front of you. It is kind of baffling.

I do not think that anyone that says LRM's take skill to master are saying they take more skill than direct fire weapons (except the noob cannon gauss rifles maybe). What I and what I think others are saying is that they take far more patience and skill to use than many people give them credit for.

ECM however is broken above and beyond it's effects vs LRM's

[Davegt27]

Quote

7. The central flaw of the current LRM and SSRM system is that they basically guarantee hits if lock on is achieved (baring AMS and cover). In FASA Battletech, missiles are not guaranteed to hit; you need to roll dice. Since we do not use dice in a 3D shooter, we replace it with aim. However, the current lock-on mechanism is much too easy in terms of aim;

I stopped reading right here
We need people to start posting their stats since this is BS

I hardly ever get killed by LRMs or SRMs
My best is S-SRM6 at 69% hit rate all my LRMs are 32.4% or lower

I played another TT game called Tactical Air War
(https://boardgamegee...ical-air-combat)
In this game you rolled the dice for radar lock-on in the radar lock on phase then rolled the dice for missile track and so on

Anyway to bottom line this, a dice roll is used to give the probability that something will happen
So it’s easily implemented by a computer (they have electronic dice roll)

(I just read in the review of the game --great game by the way -- it says “At one point called the most complicated war game ever")

Anyway all this stuff about LRMs/SRMs are a no skill weapons is all BS
If you know about missile lock on and missile "G" limit you know to put your targeting recital out front of a fast moving light

A laser requires none of this you just shoot "pew pew"

The LRM experts could write a small manual on the proper use of LRMs

Bottom line missiles are not perfect even in ideal conditions they will not be 100% effective

That should be the starting point for any in game mechanic
As range, speed and maneuvering of a target the probability of hits should go down
So maybe LRMs/SRMs are where they need to be

My opinion is any weapons system below 30% effectiveness should be removed from the game
Why waste people’s time

Of course lasers are super easy to use so maybe giving everyone 3 small lasers would be the ticket

[Vlad Ward]

Cementi, on 31 August 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

I do not think that anyone that says LRM's take skill to master are saying they take more skill than direct fire weapons (except the noob cannon gauss rifles maybe). What I and what I think others are saying is that they take far more patience and skill to use than many people give them credit for.

ECM however is broken above and beyond it's effects vs LRM's

I didn't even have to go very far....

Davegt27, on 31 August 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

I stopped reading right here

A laser requires none of this you just shoot "pew pew"

The LRM experts could write a small manual on the proper use of LRMs

Of course lasers are super easy to use so maybe giving everyone 3 small lasers would be the ticket

=/

Edited by Vlad Ward, 31 August 2015 - 03:25 PM.

[M4rtyr]

Vlad Ward, on 31 August 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

So you'd be cool if they removed ECM entirely but reduced LRM damage per missile by 30%, eliminated LRM screen shake, and reduced LRM velocity by 25%?

Because right now, having to bring a TAG to use mediocre missiles against ECM'd targets seems a hell of a lot better than being able to fire awful, awful missiles at any target.

What I'd -rather- is them make ECM something akin to what it SHOULD be and balance LRM's. I could spout whatever numbers like you did and say lets do that sure. But without testing it to see what actually works it would be pointless.

I don't have the answers, nor should I or anyone else be finding said answers. That what PGI is supposed to do, balance the weapons and equipment. But over there years I've seen very little of that and that's why lazer vomit is happy high times right now. They are easily the best weapons per tonnage and crit space, only Gauss and CERPPC get close just because of the massive damage they do to 1 location.

[Cementi]

LRM's hit % does indeed tend to be lower, myself they range pretty around the 35 to 40% mark

Your thinking they should be removed due to that being too low to be worth while. I will counter with this. Most of my mech's run without about 1000 missles. Some of the more dedicated true "missle boats" will go higher than that but for the most part I like back up weapons. Now take 35% of that......that is 350 damage, more damage than alot of pilots do in an entire match.

Sure you can argue that it is worthless because it is spread over the target and it didnt get the kills....thats where the other weaponry like the ER larges I usually carry on my missle boats come in, not to mention the kills other people get off of mechs that are softened up by LRM's.

I am ok with a 35+% success rate once you consider how much ammo is actually used. Sure I could have used that tonnage for direct fire weapons but how often have you been in a match where you simply couldnt get a good line on someone because of the fluidity of the battle or simply allies blocking your LOS. If you have an LRM launcher with a bit of ammo you can still contribute in those situations.

Anyway that is why in pub drops I often run more tabletop type builds with a smattering of weapons with a dash of LRM's. Earns me more cbills.

Oh and while we are talking skill or lack there of. How much skill does it take to hit a target with a weapon that hits exactly where you aim as lasers do. Keeping it on target can be a challenge for some.....but then so can using LRM's effectively.

[Vlad Ward]

M4rtyr, on 31 August 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

What I'd -rather- is them make ECM something akin to what it SHOULD be and balance LRM's. I could spout whatever numbers like you did and say lets do that sure. But without testing it to see what actually works it would be pointless.

I don't have the answers, nor should I or anyone else be finding said answers. That what PGI is supposed to do, balance the weapons and equipment. But over there years I've seen very little of that and that's why lazer vomit is happy high times right now. They are easily the best weapons per tonnage and crit space, only Gauss and CERPPC get close just because of the massive damage they do to 1 location.

This is the point I'm trying to make, though.

No amount of balancing will make LRMs comparable to Ballistics and Lasers. They will be intentionally weaker. Always. Forever. It is not a side-effect of ECM. They are balanced with ECM in mind.

Nothing they do to ECM will change the dominance of lasers and heavy ballistics. High level play won't budge. This is because any significant nerf to ECM will be immediately followed by a nerf to LRMs.

Like one poster mentioned earlier, LRMs are a crutch weapon for people playing on toasters that get 5 FPS or who simply lack the hand-eye coordination to play a first person shooter. Given MWO's generally older, less FPS-inclined player base, I can see why a weapon system like this would be good to have around. However, because of this, it is necessary for PGI to give them an exceptionally low performance ceiling.

LRMs will never see a net performance increase so long as they maintain their status as toaster crutches. Which is a shame, because I kinda like missiles and I'll never use them in their current state.