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#21 Scout Derek

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 12:10 PM

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 31 August 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

"This is true, we don't get emails concerning us at all."

Scott, I am not saying emails, I am saying that if you hit the report button on a post by a moderator, that moderator can intercept and squelch that report. That's not right, moderators should not be allowed to judge cases where they are the accused party.

Ok, emails is the wrong word however, thus I answered that part.

The other in what you're saying, I can't explain how and where we do it, but moderators accused do not take care of it alone, we talk as a group.

#22 MechWarrior3671771

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 12:32 PM

[shrug] I have evidence that proves otherwise, but the rules are set up to prevent me from providing it.

So I guess we are done here?

#23 Appogee

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 12:34 PM

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 31 August 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

What did you do in those cases? Was there any kind of CoC to rein in bad moderators?

Other moderators would have a quiet word with them in our private moderating 'safe room', so as not to cause any embarrassment or loss of face.

We'd often discuss difficult moderating decisions in that room together, and arrive at a joint point of view behind the scenes, so that we could always be consistent and supportive of each other.

The staff/owner of the site would generally not act as a 'higher authority' on moderating matters. They understood that we were volunteers putting our hours and good will to the community good, and backed us up on that basis.

They once bought us dinner as a thank you LOL. But being a respected and appreciated part of the community was reward in itself, I guess.

Edited by Appogee, 31 August 2015 - 12:36 PM.


#24 Nightmare1

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 12:40 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 31 August 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

I'll be watching this, moreover to protect a couple rather than to get them in trouble.


I'm actually rather pleased they made you a mod Scout. I think that's a good sign.

#25 Wayreth

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 05:52 PM

they need to have more in game moderation; far too many people breaking TOS

#26 Wildstreak

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 08:29 PM

Moderated?
These Forums?

{Reserved for if I feel like getting one of those animated laughing pictures.}

#27 IraqiWalker

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 01:05 AM

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 31 August 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

"That part you can usually say, and get away with."

Nope. That's not been my direct experience. And I can prove it.


Again, understand the scope. I know exactly which case you are talking about, and in that one, you were being too specific.

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 31 August 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

"By the way, virtually all of the moderators on the forums are volunteer mods. Meaning that any e-mails complaining about their conduct, don't go to them, or through them."

Again, I have first-hand experience that says you are wrong. And I expect to be punished merely for saying that.


All e-mails going to moderation@mwomercs.com don't get processed by the volunteer mods, who are not PGI staff, and don't answer support e-mails. So you're very wrong on that one.

Clicking the "report" button in the forums, is not the same as sending an e-mail to the support address. One is an action within the forum engine, the other bypasses the forums, and goes directly to the dev.

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 31 August 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

Appogee: "Every now and again we'd get a bad moderator on a power trip, or someone who'd been doing it so long they lost their patience."

What did you do in those cases? Was there any kind of CoC to rein in bad moderators? I'm asking because in every conversation I have had with players about this, they immediately guess the name of the moderator in question, without any identifying hints - so this one is a known problem around the community. In fact, I'll lay even money that the OP of this thread is complaining about the same moderator.

Send an e-mail to the dev on their support address. Bypasses all volunteer forum mods.

#28 MechWarrior3671771

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 07:29 AM

"you were being too specific"

I was being as specific as everyone else. Exactly so. All I did was change yes to no. Consider the following hypothetical:

IraqiWalker: "The moderators are all redheads" - moderator approved

Fen: "The moderators are NOT all redheads" - 14 day ban

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 01 September 2015 - 07:29 AM.


#29 Scout Derek

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 10:38 AM

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 31 August 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

[shrug] I have evidence that proves otherwise, but the rules are set up to prevent me from providing it.

So I guess we are done here?

As I said, can't explain everything.

#30 IraqiWalker

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 11:12 PM

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 01 September 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

"you were being too specific"

I was being as specific as everyone else. Exactly so. All I did was change yes to no. Consider the following hypothetical:

IraqiWalker: "The moderators are all redheads" - moderator approved

Fen: "The moderators are NOT all redheads" - 14 day ban

Let's be honest, the phrasing, and the discussion in that thread was not as simple. While, yes, I can understand your point that if all discussion of a moderated case should be treated equally. Meaning, that if you're going to moderated person X for criticizing the moderation, you should equally moderated person Y for praising it.

I can agree with that, but, and we'll probably not see eye to eye on this one: That's not a good analogy of how some of those posts went.

#31 MechWarrior3671771

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 04:01 AM

"Let's be honest, the phrasing, and the discussion in that thread was not as simple."

It really was that simple. I literally just changed one pronoun from male to female, or from yes to no in another. Obviously, I can't repost the "offending" sections here, but if you are still interested, I can add you to the email notifications so you can see for yourself that I am not exaggerating. Just let me know.

But its a moot point - my premium time ran out yesterday, and I won't be renewing. This is a video game, for entertainment. And I don't want to be politically indoctrinated through my entertainment. That was a political thread which should have either been left alone or yanked. Instead, a volunteer moderator participated in the debate and took sides, and then censored views she didn't like by playing "gotcha" games with the CoC. That's an abuse of the position, and should concern staff because it undermines any respect we have for their authority. Its a point of principle I am willing to be permabanned over.

And I'm not a troll, you can check my posting history. I understand that moderators should be given a wide latitude to do their job. And I agree they should ignore rules lawyers trying twist out of obvious violations. But there also needs to be something in place when moderators overstep.

I'm a new player, loyal to the MW franchise since MW2, loyal to whatever company is trying to make it work. I don't fuss about nerfs and buffs because I know that's part of gaming. I don't grief devs because I don't know enough about programming to second guess their decisions. And after 6 months I am jaded towards PGI.

Ya know, at some point, someone at PGI is going to wake up and realize "WTH? We've lost over $1000 because of moderation in a political thread? Are you kidding me? Tell that idiot whatever he wants to hear and take his money"

And that's all I was looking for: "thanks for the heads up, we'll keep an eye on her in case it becomes a pattern. We do not allow volunteer moderators to engage in political activism while moderating, or use the CoC to inflict their politics on our players".

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 02 September 2015 - 12:18 PM.


#32 IraqiWalker

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 10:58 AM

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 02 September 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

"Let's be honest, the phrasing, and the discussion in that thread was not as simple."

It really was that simple. I literally just changed one pronoun from male to female, or from yes to no in another. Obviously, I can't repost the "offending" sections here, but if you are still interested, I can add you to the email notifications so you can see for yourself that I am not exaggerating. Just let me know.

But its a moot point - my premium time ran out yesterday, and I won't be renewing. This is a video game, for entertainment. And I don't want to be politically indoctrinated through my entertainment. That was a political thread which should have either been left alone or yanked. Instead, a volunteer moderator participated in the debate and took sides, and then censored views she didn't like by playing "gotcha" games with the CoC. That's an abuse of the position, and should concern staff because it undermines any respect we have for their authority. Its a point of principle I am willing to be permabanned over.

And I'm not a troll, you can check my posting history. I understand that moderators should be given a wide latitude to do their job. And I agree they should ignore rules lawyers trying twist out of obvious violations. But there also needs to be something in place when moderators overstep.

I'm a new player, loyal to the MW franchise since MW2, loyal to whatever company is trying to make it work. I don't fuss about nerfs and buffs because I know that's part of gaming. I don't grief devs because I don't know enough about programming to second guess their decisions. And after 6 months I am jaded towards PGI.

Ya know, at some point, someone at PGI is going to wake up and realize "WTH? We've lost over $1000 because of moderation in a political thread on gender equality? Are you kidding me? Tell that idiot whatever he wants to hear and take his money"

And that's all I was looking for: "thanks for the heads up, we'll keep an eye on her in case it becomes a pattern. We do not allow volunteer moderators to engage in political activism while moderating, or use the CoC to inflict their politics on our players".

For the record, I know you're not a troll. We've had a few discussions here and there, and I'd never describe you as one.

#33 Joe Decker

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 11:21 AM

I have to say that one Moderator in the Past made me think I have never seen a Game with a more rigid, strange and offending Form of Moderation. Even that Moderator is not anymore, it seems to be still one of the Weaknesses of PGI where they need to improve. Especially when we think about how much Money some People already invested in the Game and will in the Future. But if offending Moderation happens it might make People rethink their future Investments into the Game of Course.

Of Course at some Point you need to draw a Line. On the other Side over reacting and unneeded Moderation is a dangerous Thing.

#34 AdamBaines

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 12:42 PM

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 31 August 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

Sthtopokeon: "Still, where did you get that from, if I may ask?"

Sorry, I can't respond. I have a special friend hanging on every word I post, looking for the slightest cause to ban me.




Wow this is the worst copout I have ever read on the forums...and thats saying somthing.

#35 MechWarrior3671771

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 01:15 PM

No Adam. I've already explained I can't get into a political debate about it here. My point was that a Canadian-based company and a majority American player base have distinct cultures when it comes to free speech, and that those differences should be considered. If you really feel the need to get into a debate over that, please feel free to msg me.

What's lame is poking a guy after he tells you he can't defend himself because someone is hanging on his every word, hoping to ban him if he slips up.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 02 September 2015 - 01:16 PM.


#36 IraqiWalker

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Posted 03 September 2015 - 01:59 AM

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 02 September 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

No Adam. I've already explained I can't get into a political debate about it here. My point was that a Canadian-based company and a majority American player base have distinct cultures when it comes to free speech, and that those differences should be considered. If you really feel the need to get into a debate over that, please feel free to msg me.

What's lame is poking a guy after he tells you he can't defend himself because someone is hanging on his every word, hoping to ban him if he slips up.

Fenris, this is where you're wrong, though.

The overwhelming majority of the volunteer mods are actually american, not canadian.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 03 September 2015 - 01:59 AM.


#37 Eglar

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Posted 03 September 2015 - 02:28 AM

Well, this [redacted] is a perfect example of biased forum moderation done wrong.


Without quoting the content of the deleted posts I can only say that those posts would have come through on any other topic in these forums. (I'm fairly sure that other mods can see those removed posts)

Being a volunteer forum moderator for Egosofts X-Series since X3 myself, I can only say that moderators are supposed to practise a objective and neutral stance at most times and only step in to protect the companys interesst, not their own.

Edited by John Wolf, 03 September 2015 - 07:26 AM.
Removing moderator comments, message received.


#38 John Wolf

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Posted 03 September 2015 - 07:26 AM

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 31 August 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:


[shrug] I have evidence that proves otherwise, but the rules are set up to prevent me from providing it.

So I guess we are done here?


Fenris, if you have evidence that you are being unfairly moderated, please either send that to support@mwomercs.com and the GM team will review it, PM it to me and I will escalate it for you, or file a report and it will be escalated to the GM team for review.

To everyone, every report that comes in is saved and logged. A moderator cannot intercept your complaint and 'dismiss' it. It will always be seen and reviewed.

Also, to the american/canadian issue. I am canadian, and we have volunteer moderators from all over the world. You may see a majority of north american moderators because the other mods are in the other language forums.

Now, moderation in general is always a sensitive subject, where is the line, how far has it been crossed, what is the appropriate action to take. Every single report that comes in goes through this review process to ensure we are being as fair as possible to the forum users and making sure that no rules have been broken.

We do not WANT to ban anyone. We would like to see every member of the community be constructive and contribute to the discussions, game, and community itself. However, there are always people who choose to be toxic instead of constructive, to put down instead of build up. That is why we have moderation, and moderators who try and keep the forums a positive experience.

You are free to discuss 'moderation' as a topic, but of course you cannot discuss a personal case of moderation. Thats not what the forum is for, if you have an issue with how you were moderated, escalate that to a GM/Staff/Moderator who can help you with that situation.

You may not have seen my posts or been moderated by me in a while, but I assure you I am still here and very active. If you have an issue with any moderator you can contact Tina, Patience, myself, and I guarantee it will be reviewed.

Eglar, I have removed your specific link to the post in question, however I strongly believe that your comments are correct and should be heard so those remain, and the unedited post has been heard clearly.

Be constructive folks, and if you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

John

Edited by John Wolf, 03 September 2015 - 07:37 AM.
Font change


#39 MechWarrior3671771

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Posted 03 September 2015 - 09:36 AM

Thanks John. I contacted Tina about it in May and got a response last week. Russ knows too but has not responded. I think the nicest way I can put it is that, while I understand the need to stick up for your people, the response I received did not address my concerns and felt like boilerplate.

And that's fine. People can have a reasonable disagreement. But I hope you understand that can't enable what I consider abusive moderation by supporting PGI financially. I was a new player and a paying customer. I don't know how $100 a month figures into your business model, it may even be considered negligible by you guys. But you've lost me. And over something relatively silly - forum moderation of a political thread.

I think its something you might want to look at more closely, as I am not the only one, just the most stubborn ;)

Clear Fields

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 03 September 2015 - 09:45 AM.


#40 Scout Derek

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Posted 03 September 2015 - 10:44 AM

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 03 September 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

And that's fine. People can have a reasonable disagreement. But I hope you understand that can't enable what I consider abusive moderation by supporting PGI financially. I was a new player and a paying customer. I don't know how $100 a month figures into your business model, it may even be considered negligible by you guys. But you've lost me. And over something relatively silly - forum moderation of a political thread.

I think its something you might want to look at more closely, as I am not the only one, just the most stubborn ;)

Clear Fields

Sorry to hear that Fenris, and I hope you'll be able to return on more better terms.

What I'd like to add as a New Moderator and a older member here is that not everyone is perfect, be it in these type of situations here and in the real world.

In fact these types of things happen everyday, but what you can appreciate is the fact that there's always going to be newer people taking up the helm and trying to set things right, even if they do have problems that are minor or major. Just because there's a snag in the net doesn't mean you shouldn't give up and just leave it there to rot and die away, in fact you should, as most people would, take that net and remove the snag so that it works.

And Mr. Fenris, before I can go any further, have you ever seen other game forums from this one? (I'd like to ask because I'd like to hear if you have before continuing my explanation)

Edited by Scout Derek, 03 September 2015 - 10:45 AM.






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