1142 replies to this topic

[CainenEX]

Dear Russ and Piranha games.

Just wanted to shout out that the recent PSR implementation hasn't been perfect but its a great step forward. Solo queue matches haven't been very one sides, and I've often felt pushed to fight better along my team mates. Most of the people I've been matched with want to and know how to work together!

Group queue has some inconsistent up and downs (your match maker threw a team of Empheiral <EMP> and Steel Jaguar <SJR> at me and my 6 teammates, does your match maker hate us THAT much? ;P ) but is still fun and the waits are okish.

Now I'm not thrilled for the 4man locked drop group if that were to be implemented as that would impact our fun. However I would be willing to try your 1/1/1/1 idea if it is needed to come to pass.

Please keep up the great work!

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

I have been asking for something similar to this for years now, and now I get my wish.

You can play MWO now with a casual group of friends and get better at the game TOGETHER as a 4 man team.

A dream come true, I support this 100%

[Capt BoomBoom]

The match maker is a good tool to pit against each other players of similar skills. Still, the weight class balance is off and i doubt the match maker would help that matter.

Some ideas :

1-PSR per chassis

2-Options to see how many % of each weigh class are played on each server/game mode

3-Balance mechs weight class so any one mech perform as well as a mech of another class. Boringly, heavies and assaults have many more competitive hulls that lights and mediums, that's what make matching weight so important at the moment. Once the balance is achieved, it would lower the importance of matching both team weight so closely.

4-Balance game mods so all weight class are as useful. Something like weighting differently the capture node on conquest, or clustering a few of them together so a slower mech see more action.

5-Make a more complex and rich gaming arena to promote mixed size team. Had more game mod variant, and some map randomization, like random starting location, random time limit, delayed lance drop and random landmark like mine field, some extra building not always there, some random trees, some sinkholes (underwater sinkholes surprise!), etc. Right now, there is only 2 or 3 good strategy per map and everyone know the good firing positions. Disrupt that and more play style would be possible and all of a sudden matching both weight class wont matter as much.

I know some of theses ideas have been around for some time, and i dont want to take credit for them.

Enjoy your drops

[Tarzilman]

S C A R, on 03 September 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Let me say this once and for all. People can't have all that they want, especially in a low player based game like this one. Some sacrifices have to be made in order to improve the quality of the game. In this instance it is clearly quality of a match vs waiting time. I was playing against Proton and Emp in CW today. The reason they played CW is because they couldn't get a game in a normal queue for 30 mins. I believe people have to stop complaining and make some hard choices.

Group queues:

1 - any number of players up to 4;
2 - 8 players only;
3 - 12 players only.

If a team has only 7 players they will have to find one more person to make it a group of 8 and so on.

Mech classes:

1 - 2/2 or 3/1
2 - 2/2/2/2
3 - 3/3/3/3

That's it. Full stop.

This. Get rid of solo only queue and make it 1-4 only, like we had once. Plus 8 only queue for small and 12 only queue for big groups, looking for competitive gameplay. Imho solo plus small grps has been at least ok.

Edited by Tarzilman, 07 September 2015 - 12:03 PM.

[Weztside]

My only problem with this is that large groups now have to deal with the god awful mess you call Community Warfare.

[Sylow]

Please no 4 man limit. Quite regularily my group of friends launches on friday evenings, and we usually are 5 to 6 people. If the game returns to the 4 man limit, we are given the option to leave people behind or play another game. Neither option is desireable for me, but when only given those two, i will pick the second.

[caseysrevenge]

Nope no way never group of four ,
I have 6 friends i play with regulary , thats not possible anymore after this, thank you for the backstab.
So tell me why should i spend anymore money on this game ,think i will use it for another game were i at least can play with my friends.

Edited by ceesje, 07 September 2015 - 02:04 PM.

[STEF_]

NO group of 4.

I would like to go on playing with my friends and teamates....which are far more than 4.

[Tarl Cabot]

Weztside, on 07 September 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

My only problem with this is that large groups now have to deal with the god awful mess you call Community Warfare.

This, and people of different minor factions (Kurita+Steiner vs one Clan faction) can only drop on defense, and if attacking only those people of the same faction, eg Wolf, are able to drop together.

And people from Major factions IS and Clan, can not drop together in a large unit. And add on top of that, IS can only use IS mechs, Clans can only use Clan mechs.

So limiting the solo/group queue to a max of 4 (lance) would be a train wreck, especially with how the CW is currently setup. I could see them setting a limit to 8 instead of 12 (or 4) for the public queues. That alone would help prevent units from folding due to lack of options.

And truth be told, for many MMO, it is the unit/guild component that helps in keeping people coming back. Remove that as variable where people are not able to drop in groups larger than 4 and people will be less likely to log in.

Edit - The game currently has no lobby for non-unit members, the LFG tool lacks several things, there is a "faction" chat but the chat system itself lacks several things to make it effective, and unless someone is on your "friend's" list or part of your unit, there is no real way to speak with anyone new to you, ie there are no chat rooms or, as with MPBT Solaris, Bars, etc.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 07 September 2015 - 02:51 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Obadiah333, on 07 September 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

In other words, the return of the sync drop. excellent choice.

Easy solution, only one group from each unit with same tags.

The other is thrown on the opposing sides and the last gets to wait for the next match.

Further shenannigans solved if you really feel that's a problem.

[Obadiah333]

Kjudoon, on 07 September 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

Easy solution, only one group from each unit with same tags.

The other is thrown on the opposing sides and the last gets to wait for the next match.

Further shenannigans solved if you really feel that's a problem.

That is a very good idea and I would be behind the 4's Q if PGI implemented something like that. But you and I both know that they won't, and it will be sync drop city with 3 groups of 4 trying to get on the same team, match after match. Sad, isn't it.

[Kjudoon]

Tarzilman, on 07 September 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

This. Get rid of solo only queue and make it 1-4 only, like we had once. Plus 8 only queue for small and 12 only queue for big groups, looking for competitive gameplay. Imho solo plus small grps has been at least ok.

No. The Solo queue is the best thing to the queues since the Skimrish queue dragged all those stupid pewpewdurkadurka Mech of Doody TDM freaks out of Assault and until recently, with the new deliberate effort to wreck conquest, Conquest as well making a better gaming experience for everyone.

Solo players do not have friends yet, or they don't want to play with people right now. It is the best matches. PGI acknowledges that this is where the best matches are. Your PSR is not averaged and you have to stand on your own skill. The Solo Queue must remain as is.

What need to return, and what this change WILL return is a better Casual group experience. Something that has suffered greatly since CW failed in this game, and was declining with the 5+ inclusion into it. Ideally, a "Company" Group queue for those 5+ groups should be made in the Public Queues for being available to these larger groups who want to go slam heads outside of CW. But again, the population is too small for this solution.

Why the group queues will always be worse is PSR averaging. You cannot fix the group queue by forcing solo players WHO DO NOT WANT TO PLAY AGAINST UNEQUALLY MATCHED OPPONENTS OR HAVE NO FRIENDS TO DROP WITH into that meatgrinder. This then gives us the relief valve of an "Opt In" function for those solo players who want to join the group queue. (and preferably in the future, the "casual lance" queue and the "Company 5+" queue as well.) If you then allow the casual lances to opt into the unit queue, you can have your semi hard core large group queue with people who don't care or think they're ready for it to join in and flesh it out, knowing full well the risks of going there is going to mean they're gonna get rolled and trolled badly from time to time as the PSR averaging craps out a rotten egg for you.

As for Sync Drops... honestly, they're not a problem at least in solo queue, and they will be no different than a regular drop in the group queues because they operate by the same rules. The problems with sync dropping were caused by two things in the former 1-4 queue: 1. No VOIP coordination and 2. PSR averaging. As you can tell, #1 has been solved and #2 is getting better thanks to the new PSR giving more accurate reads on skills, but that's still averaged out so it's not going to be perfect.

The best way to solve the PSR averaging problem is to lock the tiers or prevent those not of the same tier from grouping together. It is NOT a perfect fix. Not even a nice one and really, until population grows by a factor of 10, I don't see it possible. But if/once it does grow, those tiers should be hardlocked and mixed PSR tier groups should be forced to go where they always should have been forced: CW.

But that's another mess entirely.

[Jaclsweedable]

Well I don't mind the wait time and skill difference as is but I would prefer, at least, changing the max in a group to 4 with 1/1/1/1 requirements for now to see how it fairs. Note:This is PGI trying to help us rather than do nothing with a problem that doesn't NEED attention, for that I thank you.

[Jon Phoenix]

I haven't posted in a very long time. The last time I was active on the forums, I asked the same question that I'm now going to ask again:

Why can't we simply have public lobbies like every other game out there? Why have a MM? Why bother with the queue system? Put up lobbies and if players don't like with whom they're playing, they can switch lobbies.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

I don t experience problems when I m in a groupe atm. Singel pug games are ugly stompo games. It makes no differrence what kind of mech I take or how many damaghe I do. My team is mostly doomed.

[slide]

Please note everything I say is based on observations from the oceanic TZ which amplifies any problem because of it's low population levels.

There has been much discussion about the 4 to a group limit and how it worked before. To clarify IMO.

The 4 group limit DID NOT ruin the match maker.

The 4 group limit DID ruin unit socialization.

When this came in the participation rates in ARMD plunged. Simply because people could not sit in a TS channel and have a conversation whilst playing. It did not change the amount of stomps in our favor because sync drops whether intended or not were very common. To the point where we often had full teams going against each other. If we had 4 groups of 4 going there was about a 50% chance of another ARMD group dropping in the same match either on your side or on the other.

When the 12 man queue was implemented it very quickly became the playground for the top level teams. As a more casual unit it is very difficult to compete at that level. Particularly when you see the same team over and over again or sit in the queue for ages because their are 3 teams playing and you have to wait for the other 2 to finish so you can push in and play one whilst another team does the waiting. (there are very similar issues in CW).

Constantly getting stomped whether you are in a unit or flying solo is the BIGGEST thing in this game that causes people to quit and not play anymore. It is my estimation that the then 4-5 big units in Oceania have lost in excess of 2000 players (a good proportion of them founders who would have kept spending) because of the issues in this game of balance, MM and stomps. (I know this because my friends list is a ghost town and unit members simply do not log in anymore).

MM issues will always be a problem due to low population, low population can be directly related to MM, a vicious circle. There are players out there (as pointed out already) who can roll a team of lesser players as a 4 man just as easily as they do in a 12 or 8. Whilst some of these elite players are nice people the result of constantly wrecking other players and teams causes people to quit or seek easier options, it is just human nature. Very few people will say I wan't to be like them. (ie git gud).

The reason the solo queue works as well as it does is because the higher participation rate evens out the disparity in skill (PSR) better (as proven by Russ' figures) and does not have the complication of team work ruining the calculations.

PSR or Elo averaging in the group queue does not work either as it does not take into account the force multiplier of proper team work. A 4 man group might be X effective. An 8 man group I guarantee is more than 2X as effective and it compounds the more members you have in a group. Couple that with units that build complimentary drop decks only bring meta of the month mechs and high skill and stomps in the group queue or CW will continue to happen.

It is very difficult to quantify skill, particularly in a team environment. Bigger population will hide this issue more thus making it more acceptable to the average player, but changing group size or limiting mechs to 1/1/1/1 or 3/3/3/3 will ultimately make little to no difference in the long run.

IMO the this game needs to rate units on their average skill level (unit Elo) based on their win rate. High ranked teams need to be matched against other high ranked teams where possible or handicapped in someway against lower ranked teams (Unit Elo needs to be weighted if a group is made up of multiple units or non unit members). This handicap needs to manifest itself as a tonnage limit or preferably as a BV if we ever get one, or even a player cap (ie 9v12) . This solution would apply to both the group and CW queues.

Elite Players/Units should relish the challenge (unless they just like clubbing seals) and the rest of us mere mortals (the vast majority of players) would enjoy playing both CW and the group queue more. Launching into a match seeing who is on the other side and knowing a stomp is imminent is the worst feeling possible in this game. Contrary to some peoples opinions getting stomped repeatedly does not cause someone to "Git Gud" or "learn 2 play". It causes the vast majority to leave. Winning some and losing some results in people getting better over time.

More enjoyment = more players = better match making = more revenue.

Rehashing previous ideas that were marginal at best won't solve the problem, we need to look further outside the box for solutions to this problem.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Slide, good to see you out in your 9xMPL HBK-4P this weekend ... you caught me out of position a couple of times while I was solo grinding XP for my BNCs and made me pay for it.

slide, on 07 September 2015 - 11:54 PM, said:

The 4 group limit DID NOT ruin the match maker.

The 4 group limit DID ruin unit socialization.

Concur. With this and most of your observations.

The difference between then (solo + 2-4-man group queue, and separate 12-man queue) and now (solo queue, 2-10+12-man group queue, private lobbies, and Community Warfare) is that now, there are more options.

There are some (including some in my unit) that feel that an unlimited group queue is great for competition. I disagree with them, partly because of our experiences in our time zones, when the population was lowest. If everyone plays by and within the same rules, then the competition is good. If there are some 6-8-man groups running around with lots of 2-4-man groups it is seriously imbalanced ... either in favor of the well-organized large group or the max-tonnage small group, and the competition, frankly, sucks.

I really don't want to segregate the population any more, and I definitely don't wan to run off the social, casual gamers, but if we really want good competitive games, something needs to change.

2-4-man groups can help, if Community Warfare gives the larger groups someplace fun to go to. Right now, it's kind of dead and not very fun. Forcing large groups to go CW should help with the "dead" part, but I don't know what will help with the "fun" part. It might help if there was a "quick drop" option in CW ... one major Clan-vs-IS front where mixed groups of IS fought it out against mixed groups of Clans ... so that we don't have to deal with faction groups.

I'm not sold on 1/1/1/1, but I can live with it. It would be interesting to try out different limits ... maybe "no more than two of any one class", or "55-65 tons per mech", etc. ... but if we want good competition and not just random stomps, there needs to be limits.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 08 September 2015 - 12:51 AM.

[DeRazer]

A lot of talk here.. but I'm still struggling to see the problem.

I play nearly every day in a small group (2-4) and I almost never have to wait more than 3 minutes for a match.

Do people really wait for 20 mins+ and if so what sort of groups are they in?

[CLANBOY FFI]

This post Russ is about players and i ask you to read it.

I LOVE THIS GAME. I have in fact Spent about $4000 dollars on it. I mention this not to deploy one- upmanship but to let you know I try to support PGI as i can. That said, I am thinking of quitting as i just cant stand 10 / 12 unit drops that crush our team in 60 seconds. Time after time after time. I used to love the 4 man groups as it was a test of skill and not just a murder death ball against a quivering group of pugs.

My Unit The FFI pride our selves on taking new pilots and putting them in our groups to help and teach them how to fight a mech. We have made many firm friends and are sad to see their spirit get crush after a hour of getting wiped out by 228 and other elite groups. They end up going inactive, a loss not just to our unit but to PGI.

Use the CW for 12 man deathballs and put the fun back in the game. You have tried to hard to please many people and lost the one thing that matters the most. The FUN of fighting a mech, not the squashed in 60 seconds.

So i say 4 man groups even 1-1-1-1 is fine as we would take turns on class.

Regards

[Tuann]

group queu has become very difficult.
with very long wait times, we resort a lot to just drop solo, getting almost instant matches.
it happens when we group up with as low as just 2 persons.
this cannot work as intended I hope.