46 replies to this topic

[ApolloKaras]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 10 September 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ch-game-option/

571 I suppose that is many.

This game is already balanced around TT, just not close enough. Look up left corner for a hint.

But Awesome is one of the Stock Meta Mechs that you whine about?> so what are you whining about? > its too strong or too weak? Yeah you can aim, yet mechs steal spread damage quiet well, if you don`t have access to 60 PPFLD Meta of Custom Mode.
If you would read close enough, no one wants to close your mechlab.

No one is whining btw, I'm exposing your terrible position on how Stock would help CW.

At this point I'm not even sure you are reading my post. Look at that poll you linked... and look at the title of this thread. You are proposing that Stock would help CW balance, why do I need to reiterate your point for you. The game is not balanced around stock, and won't be because WE CAN AIM. Armor values were doubled, quirks were given to mechs because they were under-performing. Why are they under-performing, because the hit boxes are bad, and we can aim. The Awesome won't be viable no matter what game mode you put it in because the hit boxes are terrible.

What does stock mechs mean? What customization do you have in Stock? Which means you wouldn't have access to the mechlab mate.

Also I voted yes to that poll, I wouldn't mind a stock mode but keep it out of CW.

Edited by Saxie, 10 September 2015 - 09:13 AM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

You probably just lie then, be cause you don`t know much about Stock Mode.
Awesome is strong mech in Stock Game Play.
If you say other wise, you know sh/it about it, you are just pretending to know something.
Or if you indeed played some SMM, your judge is so poor and wrong about things that you should not be listen at all.

Honestly, I don`t care if Stock come to CW or not.
The most important thing is that will come at all.
And CW is dying and that is a fact.

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 10 September 2015 - 09:25 AM.

[ApolloKaras]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 10 September 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

You probably just lie then, be cause you don`t know much about Stock Mode.
Awesome is strong mech in Stock Game Play.
If you say other wise, you know sh/it about it, you are just pretending to know something.
Or if you indeed played some SMM, your judge is so poor and wrong about things that you should not be listen at all.

Honestly, I don`t care if Stock come to CW or not.
The most important thing is that will come at all.
And CW is dying and that is a fact.

Ad hominem - look it up.

CW isn't really dying...

Yes I'm completely wrong about the Awesome its such an incredible dominant mech in Stock mechs... said no one ever. Edited to be child friendly

Edited by Saxie, 15 September 2015 - 09:19 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 10 September 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

You probably just lie then, be cause you don`t know much about Stock Mode.
Awesome is strong mech in Stock Game Play.
If you say other wise, you know sh/it about it, you are just pretending to know something.
Or if you indeed played some SMM, your judge is so poor and wrong about things that you should not be listen at all.

Honestly, I don`t care if Stock come to CW or not.
The most important thing is that will come at all.
And CW is dying and that is a fact.

We really don't need to explore stock mechs as there are so many better avenues. PGI knows the mechlab is a critical component of the game and actually makes the game I would argue. Russ already said what he was going to do at the last town hall, we are just ever so patiently waiting for him to follow through with phase 3.

[Kin3ticX]

Saxie, on 10 September 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

Ad hominem - look it up.

CW isn't really dying...

Yes I'm completely wrong about the Awesome its such an incredible dominant mech in Stock mechs... said no one ever. I'm waiting for you to pretend or actually exhibit some sort of intelligent response in this conversation.

What the TT purist guys don't ever confess are is the actual meta of TT itself. Single heatsinks arn't as bad in TT because of the much longer 10 sec rules. MWO is much faster with the same heat dissipation (1 heat per second each sink), everything is sped up to make it not as slow as molasses.

This makes the AWE-8Q pretty much a non-stop PPC volley 'mech in TT with it's 28 singles.

Basically in TT you will see a lot of AWE-8Qs and WHK-Primes. When Sarna says the Awesome was "most feared" it was actually true. Jenners and Panthers are dangerous as well even without doubles and despite the small engine in the Panther. I have read from an old timer that diehard TT'ers even consider the generalists like the Centurion or Vindicator as "trashmechs" because they do everything, just nothing well.

Hunchback-4P "Swaybacks" or 4SP "Slapshots" fared much better with singles in TT because of the longer cooldown 10 sec rules. Hunchback-4P can eat a CN9-A alive in TT considering one of the 2 Mlasers are rear mounted and everything had half the armor. With head internal structure at like 7 and armor at 9 that also made weapons like AC20's able to 1 shot ANYTHING by the roll of a dice.

Warhawks did 15 pinpoint damage so it basically had energy gauss rifles and a giant targeting computer that added bonuses.

You also run into wierdness like the Atlas-K w/ the XL300 not being THAT bad. This is because you couldn't just XL check it unless the dice gods did it for you.


I admit never to have played TT but I have spoken with people who did and also picked up this or that in sarna footnotes.


What this all means is that the purists have hexes on the brain but at the same time they try to present TT, TROs, and stock as a panacea. Not hard to poke holes in it though.

Purist also are big proponents of handicaps by numbers like the BV system in table top. Except in MWO each player is a human intelligence and on top of that, giving the other side more players admits flawed balance and also kills any chance for a popular Esport.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 10 September 2015 - 10:06 AM.

[ApolloKaras]

Kin3ticX, on 10 September 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

What the TT purist guys don't ever confess are is the actual meta of TT itself. Single heatsinks arn't as bad in TT because of the much longer 10 sec rules. MWO is much faster with the same heat dissipation (1 heat per second each sink), everything is sped up to make it not as slow as molasses.

This makes the AWE-8Q pretty much a non-stop PPC volley 'mech in TT with it's 28 singles.

This is very true. The Awesome lived up to its namesake. I loved taking this thing. It had a low battle value, was tech 1 (introductory rules for the new players) and didn't really cost much at all, and had a ton of armor. It was the Cadillac in TT.

Quote

Basically in TT you will see a lot of AWE-8Qs and WHK-Primes. When Sarna says the Awesome was "most feared" it was actually true. Jenners and Panthers are dangerous as well even without doubles and despite the small engine in the Panther. I have read from an old timer that diehard TT'ers even consider the generalists like the Centurion or Vindicator as "trashmechs" because they do everything, just nothing well.

Utility mechs had uses but they weren't something you wanted to build your deck around.

Quote

Hunchback-4P "Swaybacks" or 4SP "Slapshots" fared much better with singles in TT because of the longer cooldown 10 sec rules. Hunchback-4P can eat a CN9-A alive in TT considering one of the 2 Mlasers are rear mounted and everything had half the armor. With head internal structure at like 7 and armor at 9 that also made weapons like AC20's able to 1 shot ANYTHING by the roll of a dice.

Warhawks did 15 pinpoint damage so it basically had energy gauss rifles and a giant targeting computer that added bonuses.

You also run into wierdness like the Atlas-K w/ the XL300 not being THAT bad. This is because you couldn't just XL check it unless the dice gods did it for you.


I admit never to have played TT but I have spoken with people who did and also picked up this or that in sarna footnotes.

even though you haven't, you have a great grasp on it.

Quote

What this all means is that the purists have hexes on the brain but at the same time they try to present TT, TROs, and stock as a panacea. Not hard to poke holes in it though.

Purist also are big proponents of handicaps by numbers like the BV system in table top. Except in MWO each player is a human intelligence and on top of that, giving the other side more players admits flawed balance and also kills any chance for a popular Esport.

I always thought the most difficult thing to translate is the timing. Currently we have weapon systems that recycle so quick, and a heat scale that is extremely forgiving, and with good aim makes for a short TTK. However these balances can be worked out without resorting to stock mechs etc.

BV would also be a hurdle mainly for pilot skill. Unless you wanted to implement pilot 'skill' in with BV of the mech you are bringing.

[Tyler Valentine]

Khereg, on 09 September 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

I won't rag you, but let's think this through a bit...

I think what you're trying to do is remove one of the factors that makes units more effective in CW than groups of pugs. If I'm wrong, you can ignore everything that follows.

So, basically, that's trying to level the playing field somewhat, but I don't think it would work as well as you think. It isn't builds that win matches (although they do help), but the teamwork and coordination, plus, frankly, the raw talent a lot of unit-based players bring to the matches.

I've been part of matches where we brought all trial builds to a CW drop for the lulz (those trials being built basically on stock concepts like you're describing) and we still won 48 to 20-ish in under 15 minutes against what should have been vastly superior builds.

The stomps in CW are the result of a number of factors, but the most significant one (IMHO) is simply differences in skill level of the players involved. This gets hidden in solo queue owing to the PSR matchmaking. You see it more in group queue, although the matchmaker does try to achieve parity, but often fails owing to lower population and the jigsaw puzzle of building groups of 12 from the available random group sizes looking for matches.

CW is the extreme: population so low a matchmaker isn't possible. You are seeing the rawest of raw disparities in skill level in the game combined with better mech builds and teamwork. Even if you put all the builds at the same level of suckage, the better players in coordinated groups are still going to roll through the vast majority of pugs.

Edited to add: I don't think a lot of people realize just how potent some of the top players in this game really are (no, I'm not one of them). If you put Proton in with a group of 11 AI-driven robots that wandered around the map shooting in random directions against a group of 12 truly random pugs from across MWO, I would put my money on Proton over 80% of the time. It's really that significant what that guy can do in a mech. Astounding, really.

Yeah, I consider myself above average, especially in CW, but the damage and kills that some guys put up is truly spectacular. There are certain guys that, when I see them on my team, I pretty much know we're going to win. They are just that good.