220 replies to this topic

[Lyoto Machida]

Khobai, on 09 September 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

I agree ECM should not give stealth (or very limited stealth at most)

But indirect LRMs would definitely be a problem if you nerfed ECM stealth. So you have to nerf stealth and rebalance indirect LRMs around stealth getting nerfed. Thats the only way to properly fix it.



Clan SRMs weigh half as much as IS SRMs. They should be worse.

It wouldnt be fair for Clan SRMs to be as good as IS SRMs on top of weighing half as much.

And IS should have an advantage in the close range game because Clan has an advantage in the long-range game. Its called asymmetrical balance. Without a close range advantage IS would have no chance against Clans at all.

Biased towards Clans much?

Increase indirect LRM fire spread.

[MischiefSC]

I would touch myself in very special ways if this happened.

Very special ways.

[Alan Davion]

Lyoto Machida, on 09 September 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

C'mon...the easiest (and truest to lore) solution is to make the equipment work like in TT. (G)ECM should just do what it's supposed to in TT. I guess PGI is too lazy to implement the other, future ECM systems down the road so they just leave it as the current status quo.

For added utility, make it scramble the VOIP of mechs within the 180m range of the ECM range and interfere with night and heat vision systems. Maybe even intermittent HUD scrambling depending on distance to the mech.

Or rename the device and stop calling it Guardian ECM in game. I'm going to laugh if when the 90m range is implemented, we get MORE ECM instead of less.

[/sup]

That last part there... I am absolutely convinced, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that this will be the case once ECM range is reduced to 90m.

At that point we'll likely see the return of the COM-2D, as well as a larger number of RVN-3Ls, SDR-5Ds and Pirates Banes, GRF-2Ns, CTF-0XPs and AS7-D-DCs on the IS side.

Then on the Clan side we'll have a rise in Arctic Cheetah Prime pods, Kit Fox and Myst Lynx C pods, Shadow Cat B pods, and Hellbringer Prime pods... Which, if you were running a Hellbringer and you WEREN'T running a prime pod with ECM before now, you weren't running that mech properly to begin with.

The only thing we're missing on the Clan side is a Kingfisher F, Turkina X or Dire Wolf C to round it all out.

I'm so going to piss myself from laughing so much when one of those assaults are added and it finally turns into no one running anything but an ECM equipped mech, because at that point it will pretty much be a requirement in order to counter all the other ECMs on the field.

On that day MWO will truly be proven to be the most broken game of all time.

[Soldier91]

Yellonet, on 09 September 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Missiles and ballistics should create VERY little heat. The heat they produce are transformed into gas and flames that are expelled as soon as they are fired, therefore the heat added to the mech should be insignificant.

When using 4xSRM6 isn't even close to the effectiveness of lasers even on close ranges something is off.

LRM's should be able to be fired at a selectable range, that would make them much more usable as dumb fire weapons.
When you have mostly LRM's and an enemy is playing peek-a-boo with you, you can't do anything right now.
If we had the ability to manually set the distance that the LRM's fly we could pre-fire where the enemy is likely to pop up, we could also shoot over hills/cover without a lock.
The mechanic could be that as now you get a range number when you point at something, you could then press a button to lock that range, then use for example the mouse wheel to increase or decrease the distance.
So you see an enemy pop up behind a hill and take some shots, then get back down again, as it is now you can only wait till he pops up again, dumb fire and see how the enemy just evades the missiles.
With my idea you would see the enemy, point at him to get the range, lock that (or lock the hill and then increase the range 10-20 meters), then fire when he's behind cover, he would get no warning and if he stays put he gets rained on.
Suppression fire!

Actually ballistic weapons heat up very fast. Once I was firing my m16a2 Maybe about 5-10 maybe 20 max but I'd not want to say more than 15 shots can't recall exactly and had to reposition I knew I shouldn't do it but I said screw I'm going to grab it by the barrel. Be sure I never did that again. If you ever have to low crawl you'll probably get one drill sergeant screaming at you to do it by holding the front sight post and not by the barrel or you'll burn your hand off, they're not doing it to hear the sound of their own voice.

It's really offensive when people call ECM a Jesus box.

Missiles are fun, I'm slightly jealous that clanners get larger streaks but sort of relieved IS is limited to 2 since I like light mechs. Seems like no one uses streaks srm2, I like those things a lot only have around 50% accuracy with them but they put a hurt on small and big mechs with even just 2 of them and a small ROF/range quirk boost.
LRM's are great when they hit. SRM's I don't even know with a 2 I'm out of ammo super quick, 4 and 6 are like IS medium lasers I just feel like I'm generating heat rather than stripping armor off I'm not accurate at all with SRM's it seems like.

[Fubbit]

Fixing LRMs is wicked complicated for sure. Worthwhile though since they add a totally unique element to the tactical game.

SRMs would benefit greatly (and I really don't think they would be overpowered) with a big speed increase. I believe the OP suggested 500 m/s? I'd like to try them at that velocity.

Additional damage might also be reasonable.

I'm also not sure they need to self destruct at 270m. It would be fun if they did the crazy loopy stuff they did for awhile in the Beta days but after 270m.

[Sarlic]

I really think adding some extra skill mechanic when boating multiple missiles would be something to think about before you go boat it.

Then again: But i assume people would still stick with lasers and gauss because the amount of effirt you have to put out damage is minimal.

Hard to say how to stop boating. Practically it's impossible because most people will just shift along. Untill it's flatout overpowered and then they would use it to their benefit.

Edited by Sarlic, 09 September 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Soldier91, on 09 September 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

It's really offensive when people call ECM a Jesus box.

The Magic Jesus Box is pretty offensive in its implementation.

[Chados]

Lock on jam mechanic for LRMs would be one good thing. BAP working to debuff multiple ECM at a more reasonable range such as 400 meters would be another. Greater velocity for LRMs and acting like SRMs when blindfired would be good. Artemis working to target single components would also be good-both would cause them to be usable like PPCs when you can't get locks because of ECM. IR or low light level television targeting would be nice, that's an ECM workaround since the 1970s.

[pbiggz]

Every time i say to people that LRMs are bad and Catalina steiner sets a bad example for new players, people get mad at me, but I didn't make the rules here. LRMs and SRMs are both in a hideous place right now, and they should be fixed quickly and effectively, not left to rot. Im not being insulting im just trying to give proper advice.

If we take precedents from old mechwarrior games (namely 4, in which lrms, srms, and streak srms were at least relatively balanced), then Missiles should function as follows.

LRMs should have no minimum range and be fire and forget, however to lock in you must have line of sight, that means no tag ravens can lock for you, though narc ravens may be able to help, but again, you must make sure your firing line is clear because the missiles shouldn't adjust for terrain unless you have line of sight.

SRMs should fire either in a tight group or in a short stream and they should have some limited tracking capability (i.e. as long as you track the target with your crosshairs the missiles will track at least within a few degrees of the initial firing vector, but not much more.

Streaks should track so long as you keep the target in your crosshairs. This means they dont lock on the way LRMs do, but unlike standard SRMs, they will track way outside your initial firing vector, rather than keeping within just a few degrees.

While we're on this topic, ECM is a broken ass jesus box but im sure we all know that.

Edited by pbiggz, 09 September 2015 - 11:55 AM.

[Lostdragon]

I've never enjoyed using LRMs so I won't comment on that, but the state of SRMs currently is quite bad. I remember back in the splash damage days when people were actually afraid of SRM mechs because they could wreck you with the quickness. I feel like I experience a lot of hit detection issues with SRMs when firing a lot of them (12 or more), but it is hard to verify that. I would say currently SRMs feel about half as powerful as they should be for the many disadvantages they have.

[Melon Lord]

Just fix the hitreg.

Edited by Melon Lord, 09 September 2015 - 12:00 PM.

[zagibu]

Well, you can try to rebalance missiles all you want, this game is ruled by pinpoint damage, and missiles are spread damage weapons. No amount of numbers tweaking will change this basic fact. As long as the concept of spread damage is useless in this game, missiles will be useless.

[Soldier91]

Mcgral18, on 09 September 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

The Magic Jesus Box is pretty offensive in its implementation.

Only to LRM heavy mechs. IS run dry on ammo and maybe score 2 kills it can take 500 LRM's to take out an assault wide in the open in my experience. That's like 3 tons of ammo and 6-14 or so tons of launchers haven't been pealing around in my missile heavy mechs that often. LRM's are great though it helps shape up who's going to run and hide and who's going to shoot, I've flat out told people on my team pick who you want me to scare off when I'm using missiles.

Edited by Soldier91, 09 September 2015 - 12:31 PM.

[wanderer]

First off, missiles are one of those apples-to-oranges things with Clantech. Sure, that Clan SRM6 weighs 1.5 tons. It should be performing very close to an Inner Sphere "SRM-3" in terms of damage, delay, and heat- because Clantech is supposed to be as close to 1:1 with IS gear as possible. Likewise, a CLRM20 should be hitting like a slightly better (accounting for it's extra crit spaces) ISLRM10. You want a system with parity? Apply it.

Clan Streak vs. IS Streak? IS Streaks should be hitting more than 150% harder than Clan Streaks, given their shorter range and applying tonnage equivalency. A Streakcat should be hitting as hard as a Clanner lobbing 20 SSRMs or so, minimum. While a 'Mech may not be able to mount one or the other due to it's tech base, the -weapons- should make a logical progression based on payload.

I'm not even go into how bad LRMs are right now. That's a constant topic.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

With MRMs on the Horizon, I want an actual guidance system for SRMs and tweaks to Streaks. I favor allowing the missiles to ripple fire and follow the Arm Crosshair / Reticle until they impact or reach max range. Then the only difference between SRMs and Streaks is that the Lock system can help conserve ammo when LOS on a target is lost.

Systems like Artemis, TAG and NARC would then be able to modify missile response in terms of how fast missiles adjust to where the Arm Crosshair / Reticle is pointing for SRMs and Streaks. And so ECM could then only counter these goodies. And they could likely stay at their current velocity with such changes.

This way we can also focus on components like other weapons. And can at least feel more like Missiles and not like mech shotguns, which the LB-Xs should be IMHO.

---

With LRMs, I'd consider testing them as a fire and forget weapon, with a required 1 second lock, minimum. With this, they need their Cooldown Extended (and I'd have all LRMs have the same longer cooldown, say 5.5 or 6 seconds depending on their improved ammo efficiency).

And I'd consider a ripple fire pattern (for example five missiles per Location / Component) and make use of a modified SSRM bones system for LRMs to hit those components (I would add a Bone or two that are away from the Mech Hitboxes to account for misses using the new hit system, and remember that the bones are weighted for chance to hit). Artemis on LRMs would reduce the miss rate so that more missiles hit the target.

Then allow locks to only occur with LOS, TAG and NARC, where ECM does not affect Locks. ECM can still block info on the targets, so we won't know loadout or Mech Condition, but never Visual LOS Locks; TAG and NARC, could possibly countered for indirect fire Locks.

UAVs will still tell us where enemies are, but without one of the three (LOS, TAG and/or NARC), those Targets cannot be hit indirectly effectively.

I imagine this makes them more ammo efficient, and helps distribute damage for more Launcher Combos, where, for example, boating LRM5s currently provide the advantage of generally hitting the CT with great frequency than other Launchers/Combos.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 09 September 2015 - 12:26 PM.

[aniviron]

I am, of course, on board with SRM buffs. SRMs are in a terrible state, they're a rare sight on the battlefield, and for good reason. The options are, as everyone says, damage buff, spread reduction, and velocity increase, and probably two of these three are needed to make SRMs useful again.

I have to disagree with people saying clan SRMs are totally fine though. Sure, they should probably remain at a damage disadvantage compared to IS SRMs, though personally I prefer lower velocity missiles, as it fits more with the character of clan weapons being harder to use. But it's not like C-SRMs are seeing tons of use on the battlefield, and even if lasers get more nerfs, you're not going to start seeing C-SRMs, it will just be back to ballistics for the clans.

Seriously, when was the last time you saw a clan SRM boat, or even loadouts that leaned on SRMs for part of their firepower? When was the last time you saw a Mad Dog, at all? When you did see that Mad Dog, can you tell me with a straight face it was using SRMs instead of SSRMs?

Sure, the TBR and SCR do okay with SRMs, but they excel with every weapon system because of their hardpoints, hitboxes, speed, and endo/ferro, and even then they're far better as ballistic boats than missile carriers. Every other mech that can take SRM loadouts- the MLX, KFX, ADR, SHC, MDD, HBR, SMN, WHK, EXE, and DWF do not, because clan SRMs are just bad. Even if lasers were viable for none of these mechs, they would still use PPCs or ballistics instead, every single one.

So go ahead, buff IS SRMs, they need it badly. But don't pretend that clan SRMs are okay, especially given that when all the weight is totaled, the clan weight saving doesn't come to much. Compare the following MDD-A and CPLT-A1. Both have identical loadouts of 6 ASRM6, both have maxed armor, both come with a 300 engine. The only real tradeoff is that the MDD gets better cooling and the CPLT gets jumpjets. Sure, clan SRMs come out slightly ahead, but the difference between these mechs doesn't imply to me that the C-SRMs should rest at 2.0 damage while IS SRMs get 3.0.

[Khobai]

Quote

Well, you can try to rebalance missiles all you want, this game is ruled by pinpoint damage, and missiles are spread damage weapons. No amount of numbers tweaking will change this basic fact.

In tabletop, the whole point of spread weapons such as SRMs and LRMs is to hit many locations at once and find the places where armor is breached and get critical hits on weapons/equipment in those locations.

One of the MAJOR reasons why spread weapons suck so much in MWO is because critical hits dont friggin matter. Internal structure gets blown through so fast that its way easier just to destroy entire locations than crit out weapons and equipment. Also critical hits cant destroy a mech because engines cant die from critical damage.

So a big part of fixing spread weapons is making critical hits matter more. The easiest way to do that is to would be to significantly increase internal structure so crits occur more often before locations get destroyed. And to help make Artemis worth its tonnage, it should increase the crit chance of SRMs and direct LRMs the same way targeting computers increase the crit chance of lasers.

But also engines should be destroyable by crits. This gives us a way to fix IS XL engines so they can survive a side torso destruction. Give engines hitpoints and each time they take a critical hit they lose hitpoints in the same way as other pieces of equipment.

IS XL = 30 hitpoints (losing a side torso does 20 damage to engine, and you lose half your internal heatsinks)
Clan XL = 40 hitpoints (losing a side torso does 20 damage to engine, and you lose half your internal heatsinks)
IS STD = 50 hitpoints (side torso destruction doesnt damage engine)

So the IS XL could now survive a side torso destruction, but it would still be less durable than the Clan XL. And the STD engine would be the most durable engine of all even having an advantage over Clan XL in that regard.



As for reducing pinpoint damage, thats also something that the game needs, but players cant seem to agree what method of reducing pinpoint damage would work best. I personally like the idea of making all pinpoint damage weapons work either like CERPPCs (splash) and CUACs (burstfire) by forcefully splitting their damage across multiple adjacent locations. Its a very simple solution, the code for it already exists, and it could be implemented almost immediately.

Quote

With MRMs on the Horizon, I want an actual guidance system for SRMs and tweaks to Streaks. I favor allowing the missiles to ripple fire and follow the Arm Crosshair / Reticle until they impact or reach max range. Then the only difference between SRMs and Streaks is that the Lock system can help conserve ammo when LOS on a target is lost.

This is another way Artemis could be buffed for SRMs.

non-Artemis SRMs would be dumbfired.

Artemis SRMs would be manually guided and follow the crosshair.

Edited by Khobai, 09 September 2015 - 02:35 PM.

[wanderer]

People fear critical hits because OMG! RANDOM! IN MY SHOOTER!

The funny thing is that in TT, there is no "health" for internal components.

You crit the component, it's destroyed. Boom. It'd basically mean internal damage in MWO would likely cripple something in 2- 3 hits.

[cSand]

I actually really love using SRMs

but a little boost would be nice. Not in travel speed, I like lobbing them. Maybe a little tighter spread.

LRMs.. well, they are devastating if you get caught in the open with no protection but that pretty much never happens. I love seeing a good no-lock skillshot though, separates the LRM-men from the LRM-boys

Khobai, on 09 September 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

i like the idea of mechs having different skill trees based on their roles

some mechs that are scouts/harassers/flankers would still get speed tweak in their skill trees

I think having a big pool of skill trees, and being able to select which ones you want on any chassis when you get to that elite level or w/e would be good. So you could put speed tweak on an assault but that takes one of your slots.

And you could choose only once / chassis so choose wisely

[aniviron]

wanderer, on 09 September 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

People fear critical hits because OMG! RANDOM! IN MY SHOOTER!

The funny thing is that in TT, there is no "health" for internal components.

You crit the component, it's destroyed. Boom. It'd basically mean internal damage in MWO would likely cripple something in 2- 3 hits.

The reason for having health on internal components though is that without that weapons which take up a large number of crit slots like AC10/20, gauss, ALRM20, etc are inordinately fragile, and it meant that larger weapons were destroyed pretty much the instant the armor was breached while smaller weapons would last pretty much until the section was destroyed. This was particularly devastating as well, given that taking a large weapon like an AC20 only for it to be destroyed right away meant the mech in question would lose most of its firepower, whereas a mech that had 4ML instead would lose far less firepower. The game, then and now, needs mechanics to discourage the boating of smaller weapons.

I agree it's not an ideal solution, but this is why it was done, and why critseeking weapons in TT (LBX, MG, SRM) are not good in this game.