28 replies to this topic

[One Medic Army]

stjobe, on 09 September 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

You can kill assaults with lights in TT as well; you just have to know how to use initiative and your speed: If you win initiative, your target will move first, so you can use your speed to move in directly behind it. If you lose initiative you have to move first, so use your speed to move as far as you can/into cover.

Unless you're really unlucky, you'll wear the assault down before the one arm per turn it can fire kills you.

In MWO, it's harder because we have instant convergence and huge lolphas, but they DO have to hit you - and most pilots in the PUG queue are horrible at aiming.

As for rewards, yeah they could stand being raised, but that goes for all classes.

QFT.

In TT, there are plenty of lights designed for killing larger mechs (like the Jenner), and assaults had rear-facing guns for a reason.

Also for instance an Atlas AS7-D alpha striking a Jenner would fire: SRM6, AC/20, LRM20, and 2 MLAS (the other 2 fire to the back). At best that's 6 2dmg hits, 6 5dmg hits, and 1 20 damage hit. Chances are the Jenner would not actually die, outside of criticals.

Edited by One Medic Army, 09 September 2015 - 12:44 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Light 'Mech =/= Scout 'Mech. Yes, some of the lights we have in the game are indeed designed to be scout 'Mechs, but most of them are designed to be strikers, snipers, raiders, and fire support machines intended from the outset to fight and kill other 'Mechs.

The Adder is not a scout 'Mech, it is a sniper and fire support 'Mech.

The Kit Fox is not a scout 'Mech (except in the C configuration), it is a sniper and fire support 'Mech.

The Panther is not a scout 'Mech, it is a sniper and fire support 'Mech.

The Jenner was designed for use in fast lances that would (drumroll) attack and destroy heavier 'Mechs. That role is what made it notorious throughout the Inner Sphere, not scouting.

The Jenner IIC was just a straight upgrade of the original Jenner, with all that implies.

The Wolfhound is not a scout 'Mech; it is a hunter-killer meant to seek and destroy other light 'Mechs (it was specifically designed to counter the DCMS' Jenner and Panther).

The Raven 4X is not a scout 'Mech (and the other variants were designed more for Electronics Warfare support than for scouting).

The Urbanmech is most definitely not a scout 'Mech.

The Firestarter is not a scout 'Mech, it's built to be a flamer carrier. Interestingly, it was not designed for 'Mech on 'Mech combat, but since its primary targets (light vehicles and infantry) aren't in the game, it's hard to blame folks for using all those hardpoints for lasers instead. It's still an obscenity that it's the best IS light 'mech on the field. *correction: some FS9 variants were repurposed as scouts, because thanks to being a second-line design more of them survived late into the Succession Wars than many other purpose-built scouts did. The S variant was, indeed, built as a scout.

The Arctic Cheetah, built to replace the Mist Lynx, was known as a capable scout, but carried more than enough firepower to hold its own against heavier 'Mechs (as we all well know by now).

That leaves... the Mist Lynx, Spider, Commando, and Locust as the game's light scout 'Mechs (and even they saw use as light strikers; the Commando in particular had a reputation for carrying disproportionately large alphas thanks to its 2D and 3A variants). That's slightly less than one third of the light 'Mechs.

So... tell me again, why should lights not be viable against the other weight classes? Most of the lights we have in the game were explicitly designed for exactly that. Many of them were designed for close range fighting against other, heavier 'Mechs (the Jenner comes to mind). And... wonder of wonders, most of the lights which were designed to fight other 'Mechs are, in fact, pretty good at fighting other 'Mechs. The ACH is a little too good, and the FS9 shouldn't be worth a damn against anything that isn't flammable, but the Panther, Jenner, Raven, Adder, etc? They're supposed to be dangerous. They're supposed to make heavy and assault drivers afraid of running off alone.

Please. The smallest queue doesn't need to be nerfed into the ground by robbing all of its most capable 'Mechs of their ability to do what they were designed for.

Edited by PS WrathOfDeadguy, 09 September 2015 - 01:03 PM.

[2MyBalls]

TheNef, on 09 September 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

I suppose what I'm getting at is that the payback for me seems ok when not using consumables, I'm more than rewarded by the game-play of which I'm self confessed lone wolf. Targeting mechs and hiding, watching LRMS pour down on them whilst they try to figure who has them targeted and sneaking in for the quick deathblow makes playing a light enough for me to keep going back.

very good summary, what a light-play should be. The only problem, you don´t get rewarded in any way playing your "proper" role.

[1453 R]

2MyBalls, on 09 September 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

very good summary, what a light-play should be. The only problem, you don´t get rewarded in any way playing your "proper" role.

That's one way to use a light.

What if your team doesn't have LRMs, though?

What if the enemy is clustered too tightly, and too wary of TAGs, to play finger-pointer?

Or, to put the question another way: why should I have to give up my weapons, my own ability to fight, so that some other guy on my team can do the damage and cause the havoc that rightly should have been mine?

if you want to run your lightweights that way, a'ight! Awesome, do that! Be my guest! They make ECM Spiders for a reason, and that reason has to be something other than infuriating that 1453-R guy!

But they made light 'Mechs in the TT canon which were raiders, muggers, and fighters. A Jenner wasn't supposed to be something that killed you by pointing at you long enough for the Archer in the back to missilize your face, it killed you by stuffing you full of energy fire and SRMs faster than you could properly track.

If all you want out of your light 'Mech is a passive spotter than doesn't/can't do its own fighting, they have 'Mechs for that. The Spider is an optimal choice. It'd be nice if they increased the bonuses for it, yes, but by the same token it'd be nice for the rest of us if one of the guys on our team didn't consistently do 30 damage. Alternatively, pack that TAG and those UAVs on a Jenner, or a Firestarter, or a something...then fill it out with lasers, SRMs, and other Man Mode gear, and when spotting is a bad idea?

Fight.

You'll get better payouts that way, your teams will do better, and you will be greater credit to team.

Edited by 1453 R, 09 September 2015 - 12:57 PM.

[Nightmare1]

@OP: My Locusts and Panthers would like a word with you...

[2MyBalls]

PS WrathOfDeadguy, on 09 September 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

Please. The smallest queue doesn't need to be nerfed into the ground by robbing all of its most capable 'Mechs of their ability to do what they were designed for.

okay... lets see...

• A light =/= scout... thats clear
  
• All the "roles" you mentioned are fine and dandy, but NONE of them will be rewarded. You need to DO (ALOT) DMG to get something out of a match. (XP / C-Bill)
  
• The whole concept of Battletech is that you get something for giving something up.... like speed for armor.. or firepower for speed... etc. you can´t have ALL together
  
• Play-mechanics (how you play your mech) do NOT evolve by themself.... game desingner putting down the rules, players find the most efficient way to use the rules...

so in the end we will play the ligths how PGI desing them to play.

My problem is with the idea a 30 ton mech even capable of FACETANKING more then one alpha-strike from a 90 ton mech.

On the other hand I don´t want the lights to be nerfed, because - like I wrote - they are already in a really desperate position.

What I want to see is a solution, so that you can play all those "roles" you discribed and getting rewarded for it, because right now you only get rewarded if you play like a mini-assault.

[H I A S]

All Lights should be buffed to the Level of ACH/FS9 and nope, Lights are not only Scouts.

Edited by HiasRGB, 09 September 2015 - 01:29 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

2MyBalls, on 09 September 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

My problem is with the idea a 30 ton mech even capable of FACETANKING more then one alpha-strike from a 90 ton mech.

Who said anything about facetanking? None of the lights in the game right now can facetank heavy or assault alphas and hope to survive long; that's just ludicrous. Either you're having hitreg issues, you are mistaken about where your damage landed, or you're straying into the realm of hyperbole. No light driver worth a damn tries to facetank; not even the dreaded ACH can get away with being that careless.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

It's more an issue of overall balance.

Armor and Structure has been boosted 2x because of Weapons and Heat Capacity, then we see some mechs have a few boosts through quirks.

Weapons' base stats are around ~2.5x or more, plus Fast Fire, Quirks and Cooldown Modules.

Heat Capacity is also boosted ~2.5x, plus 2x Heat Containment, and an extra 16 Capacity to the First Shutdown.

Then we have the matters of how weapons can be focused and aimed by players.

And we have just a few elements that counter act this increased lethality some, Dissipation for example, has only been boosted by about ~1.15x (with 2x Cool Run), We have Heat Scale Penalties, most Missiles have big spread, hard counters and/or dead fire, Lasers have duration, and Ballistics have reduced velocity in many cases, ammo is generally between 150 to 200 damage per ton and MGs (and Flamers) suck. Then we also have Hardpoints to limit options.

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So Lights are most affected by lacking armor and dissipation against other mech classes. And the boosted damage output helps out the bigger mechs be more lethal than what they probably should be.

For me, quirks are just gonna be band-aid s, until the Heat System and how weapons are affected by the various boosts and inflated base stats are addressed. Sure there can be a bunch of new armor and structure quirks, but those should be added to the base values (Quirks should be fewer, but unique per variants and so on).

Any improvements depends on what variables can be adjusted.

If Armor is not going to be raised, for example, then base weapon stats would then need to be scaled back to say 1.0x or 1.5x and then allow the modifiers such as Fast Fire, quirks and Modules to then boost them up from there.

And I'd reduce Heat Capacity while raising Dissipation also, as another means to help smaller mechs.

Edit: Then there's the matters of how everything, including Lights are too fast and agile with how Engines influence mobility profiles with the rest of the Mech Tree Efficiencies and Quirks, and this can be seen when Comparing the mobility profile of Timbers at 375 to Orions or Crows to the 55 tonners, a big engine provides a little too much also, IMHO.

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I own a bunch of lights and I take them out for quite a few matches when I get chances to play. With the imbalances in mind, one needs to use cover and never be seen unless you want the enemy to know where you are if you are playing a squirrel, and focus fire with the rest of your team.

The main thing is knowing the maps, and you can do well with slower lights too.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 09 September 2015 - 02:39 PM.