65 replies to this topic

[Elizander]

Davers, on 10 September 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

Unfortunately PGI used MW2 as the comparison.

Well, I like what they did with River City and Forest Colony. I'm gonna give them the benefit of doubt on this one, at least until I see what they do to Caustic.

A lot of Forest colony feels wasted to me cause people just go to that one spot to fight. At least in River City people fight top or bottom sorta.

[Y E O N N E]

Pls no.

[Rebas Kradd]

BearFlag, on 10 September 2015 - 08:59 PM, said:

The trend towards cloistered maps is a bad one.

The trend towards cloistered maps is the one thing that has kept MWO from plunging headfirst into the "truly horrible balance" realm of MW2 and MW3. You know what all that plentiful cover does for you that you don't realize? It lets brawlers into the game. It allows short-range mechs (and light and medium mechs of any kind) to get into battle without being torn apart at long range by PPC, Gauss, LRMs, and large lasers. Which is all you see in retrospect videos of MW3 and MW4.

Now, if you're a sniper by trade, I can understand why you prefer Alpine. But the maps have to accomodate every style, not just yours.

I'm glad to see more open maps making a comeback; it's almost like PGI read this post of mine before I even wrote it.

BUT...if they don't find a way to provide at least some cover, it's going to be dominated by two weapons. Open maps are bad for weapon balance.

[STEF_]

The most important thing is..... to stop those freaking nascar squirrels, going round and round and round EVERY SINGLE DROP.
In solo que.

[Davers]

Elizander, on 10 September 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

A lot of Forest colony feels wasted to me cause people just go to that one spot to fight. At least in River City people fight top or bottom sorta.

Between starting points, bases, cap points, and people just wanting to shoot stuff ASAP, a lot of most maps are wasted.

[Kilo 40]

yeah, the old alpine was pretty claustrophobic....

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Alpine is going to be flat?

Are we serious?

[BearFlag]

Rebas Kradd, on 10 September 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

The trend towards cloistered maps is the one thing that has kept MWO from plunging headfirst into the "truly horrible balance" realm of MW2 and MW3. You know what all that plentiful cover does for you that you don't realize? It lets brawlers into the game. It allows short-range mechs (and light and medium mechs of any kind) to get into battle without being torn apart at long range by PPC, Gauss, LRMs, and large lasers. Which is all you see in retrospect videos of MW3 and MW4.

Now, if you're a sniper by trade, I can understand why you prefer Alpine. But the maps have to accomodate every style, not just yours.

I'm glad to see more open maps making a comeback; it's almost like PGI read this post of mine before I even wrote it.

BUT...if they don't find a way to provide at least some cover, it's going to be dominated by two weapons. Open maps are bad for weapon balance.

Have you noticed the paucity of light mechs recently? This is product of your cloistered maps. I've seen several drops now with no or one light.

I have five Locusts. Do you think I'm going take them in with Forest Colony as a possible destination? Screw that. And with Locusts, Cicadas, Kintaros, Victors ....I'm no GD sniper.

I said Alpine could use some break up. But even so, have you fought a battle on Alpine that didn't involve close combat? It invariably happens at the top or the flanks of the hill of death. Short range mechs are not left out. I've done well on the map with a Kintaro 18 with two ML and SRM30.

Your new maps haven't saved the game. They've killed the light. Balance indeed.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

alpine has totaly bad design. need rework from scratch.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Grisbane, on 10 September 2015 - 09:43 PM, said:

i can already see people with short range builds disconnecting as soon as they see Alpine 2 as their drop. with long, wide open areas, they would never be anything other than food anyways.. there would be literally nothing for them to do other than die.. wide open maps could be a bad thing.

But always CQC and close in maps are fine? And we wonder why LRMs are so terrible? CUz almsot every map is so cluttered that LRMs just so easily get avoided. LRMs by themselves are not so bad really. its all the mechanics designed to stop them.....ECM, cover, Radar Derp, AMS.....and they are all insanely effective at it.

So, you bring an HBK and get Alpine, why DC? its no different then a 4x PPC Warhawk getting Mordor. Or in WoT, Arty getting himmelsderp...

[MeiSooHaityu]

Alistair Winter, on 10 September 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

Russ has explained that Alpine 2 will revisit some of the old school look from MW2 maps, with big open areas...

That's one of my big problems with Alpine NOW. For the love of christ. . Alpine needs more cover like vegitation and fog for the low lands a long with alternate caves and routes not visibile from Mt. Tryhard in I9.

Here we go, I got a great idea, let'd do this, but snowy...



I know I'm jumping the gun here without seeing what they have in mind. Maybe if there are multiple Mt. Tryhards instead of 1 it will be marginally better. Whatever, in anycase this announcement doesn't give me much faith that Alpine

[TexAce]

Have fun walking around with 50kph looking for where the action is and arriving 10 minutes later.

I personally don't have time for this.

Edited by TexAce, 11 September 2015 - 02:31 AM.

[El Bandito]

So what if Alpine is open? Not like it appears on every drop. In fact I dropped in Alpine only three times in a full week of playing. Open map teach people to take some long range weapons on top of their medium lasers.
(Except CERMLs, cause that weapon is hacks)

Edited by El Bandito, 11 September 2015 - 03:45 AM.

[Paigan]

Well, my 6xERLL Warhawk approves.
However, such a map would get flamed so hard by all the "brawling" guys (and not to mention lights) that they would either take it out or redo into a mostly-brawling-map just like all the other maps we have now.

I played MW2 with passion as well, but there is one difference: Bots don't complain about unfair terrain. They just die and get deallocated.

[timaeus]

El Bandito, on 11 September 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

So what if Alpine is open? Not like it appears on every drop. In fact I dropped in Alpine only three times in a full week of playing. Open map teach people to take some long range weapons on top of their medium lasers.
(Except CERMLs, cause that weapon is hacks)

I honestly can't remember the last time I dropped on Alpine. River City? Caustic? Forest Colony? Sure. Not Alpine though.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Maybe the map designs are aiming more towards players bringing a mixed bag of weapons over just LPL ERRYTHING!!!

Since, just putting Gauss on everything, as suddenly your in a close range fight. Or, an all brawler build and suddenly your in the middle of an open field.

You bring a mixed bag of guns so you can atleast contest any range given to you. Its why basically every mech ever comes stock with mixed weapon loads. Outside of a few specialist mechs, like the HBK, or the Hollander who are short and long range mechs, or a Catapult, made specifically for long range suppression, they are outiftted for alot of fields. And the whole, but who sends short range guys int oa CQC fight? Well, it takes time to refit thosse mechs with different loadouts and in war, sometimes there isnt time to swap. So, suddenly your AC20 HBK is in the middle of the ***** Sahara......

[Paigan]

LordKnightFandragon, on 11 September 2015 - 04:12 AM, said:

Maybe the map designs are aiming more towards players bringing a mixed bag of weapons over just LPL ERRYTHING!!!

Since, just putting Gauss on everything, as suddenly your in a close range fight. Or, an all brawler build and suddenly your in the middle of an open field.

You bring a mixed bag of guns so you can atleast contest any range given to you. Its why basically every mech ever comes stock with mixed weapon loads. Outside of a few specialist mechs, like the HBK, or the Hollander who are short and long range mechs, or a Catapult, made specifically for long range suppression, they are outiftted for alot of fields. And the whole, but who sends short range guys int oa CQC fight? Well, it takes time to refit thosse mechs with different loadouts and in war, sometimes there isnt time to swap. So, suddenly your AC20 HBK is in the middle of the ***** Sahara......

Wrong. Almost every stock mech comes with mixed weapons because of naive mech romantic.
Like Mechs are some kind of indiana jones on an adventure and need to be prepared for every situation.
Not because they are superior. Superior is what works best in the field and that is - surprise - boating.

Look at the real world (or many other games):
One plattform, one (main) purpose, one (main) weapon type. MAYBE a marginal side weapon.
E.g.:
Sniper: rifle + Pistol
Jet: Missiles + gun (gun being next to superfluous these days)
Tank: main gun + maybe something tiny vs. infantry

That is EFFICIENT.

If you want to be efficient, you don't run around carrying "one of everything" at once.
That is the OPPOSITE of being efficient.

Even in MWO:

Instead of fitting 3 ERLL, 3 ERML, 4 ERSL and maybe an SRM because it looks so romantic, if you just fit 6xERLL, you get a LOT of advantages:
- maximum damage at optimal range, not just 50% or so
- modules count for 100% of your weapons
- losing a component has no danger of losing exactly that ONE weapon type you would have needed right now. They are all the same and you can still keep fighting with your main weapon type even if half the mech is destroyed.
- controlling and weapon group management gets a lot easier and efficient.


All that whining about boating and stating (without proof) that mixed weapon systems are better anyway is just naive Mech romantic. Nothing else.

The only real situation where you need to have mixed weapons is if some weapons are utterly useless under some conditions. E.g. IS LRMs at close range but you still want to be able to fight (do you really? Or should you have just avoided to have your weapon system outplayed?).


Especially funny in your post:
Long range maps ENCOURAGE boating of longer range weapons like LPL, Gauss, ERLL and DISCOURAGE mixing weapons.
Sometimes it's really funny to follow some people's way of thinking.

Edited by Paigan, 11 September 2015 - 04:28 AM.

[Lugh]

BearFlag, on 11 September 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

Have you noticed the paucity of light mechs recently? This is product of your cloistered maps. I've seen several drops now with no or one light.

I have five Locusts. Do you think I'm going take them in with Forest Colony as a possible destination? Screw that. And with Locusts, Cicadas, Kintaros, Victors ....I'm no GD sniper.

I said Alpine could use some break up. But even so, have you fought a battle on Alpine that didn't involve close combat? It invariably happens at the top or the flanks of the hill of death. Short range mechs are not left out. I've done well on the map with a Kintaro 18 with two ML and SRM30.

Your new maps haven't saved the game. They've killed the light. Balance indeed.

They killed the BAD light pilots.

The good ones are doing just fine.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Paigan, on 11 September 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

Wrong. Almost every stock mech comes with mixed weapons because of naive mech romantic.
Like Mechs are some kind of indiana jones on an adventure and need to be prepared for every situation.
Not because they are superior. Superior is what works best in the field and that is - surprise - boating.

Look at the real world (or many other games):
One plattform, one (main) purpose, one (main) weapon type. MAYBE a marginal side weapon.
E.g.:
Sniper: rifle + Pistol
Jet: Missiles + gun (gun being next to superfluous these days)
Tank: main gun + maybe something tiny vs. infantry

That is EFFICIENT.

If you want to be efficient, you don't run around carrying "one of everything" at once.
That is the OPPOSITE of being efficient.

Even in MWO:

Instead of fitting 3 ERLL, 3 ERML, 4 ERSL and maybe an SRM because it looks so romantic, if you just fit 6xERLL, you get a LOT of advantages:
- maximum damage at optimal range, not just 50% or so
- modules count for 100% of your weapons
- losing a component has no danger of losing exactly that ONE weapon type you would have needed right now. They are all the same and you can still keep fighting with your main weapon type even if half the mech is destroyed.
- controlling and weapon group management gets a lot easier and efficient.


All that whining about boating and stating (without proof) that mixed weapon systems are better anyway is just naive Mech romantic. Nothing else.

The only real situation where you need to have mixed weapons is if some weapons are utterly useless under some conditions. E.g. IS LRMs at close range but you still want to be able to fight (do you really? Or should you have just avoided to have your weapon system outplayed?).


Especially funny in your post:
Long range maps ENCOURAGE boating of longer range weapons like LPL, Gauss, ERLL and DISCOURAGE mixing weapons.
Sometimes it's really funny to follow some people's way of thinking.

You load up on 6x ERLL and then are tasked with attacking a city. No, its not as simple as pressing a button and swapping a weapon load. Tanks, they dont take JUST AP to be efficient, they take shells for different target types. They take MGs and stuff for infantry. THye take AP for heavy armor, HEAT for armor, buildings, light vehicles and HE/Canister for Infantry and buildings.

That is basically the same as a mech taking a PPC or a pair of PPCs for long range, 2 ML for mid range and an SRM for close range work. Then an MG or APODS for Infantry. Boating works in games only because we meet only 1 type of target...mechs. Even infantry based shooters, we dont "boat" just 1 weapon, cuz we meet different target types, so we have the SMG/Pistol/Shotty for close range. AR/LMG/Battle Rifle for mid-long range. Sniper for really long range. Grenades and explosives for entry and clearing. Rockets for vehicles. DOesnt sound like a "boat" to me. Sounds like a mixed bag of guns.

Infantry platoons even today dont "boat" all Assault rifle guys. Naw, they have demolitions, grenade launchers, grenades, flashbangs, LMG, Marksman, Breaching soldier, Anti Vehicle soldier.

[Impyrium]

There seems to be a lot of people that didn't actually listen to the Town Hall in here, so let me clarify the new map design with some of the notes taken from it:

Quote

New alpine (if it even keeps the same name) will be same visual themes/textures/etc but way different layout. Complex in the middle, terrain like boreal forest but much bigger scale, mountain is GONE, etc.

At no point did he ever say flat. To be honest I never even heard MW2, I just heard a nod towards those of us that wanted something similar to 'previous MechWarrior games'. Stahp assuming the worst.

Edited by Dingo Red, 11 September 2015 - 05:44 AM.