65 replies to this topic

[Paigan]

LordKnightFandragon, on 11 September 2015 - 05:12 AM, said:

[...]
Infantry platoons even today dont "boat" all Assault rifle guys. Naw, they have demolitions, grenade launchers, grenades, flashbangs, LMG, Marksman, Breaching soldier, Anti Vehicle soldier.

You amuse me.
That is EXACTELY what I said: One platform, one (main) weapon type.
The versatility comes in combining different platforms (Troopers in infantry platoons or Mechs in a company).

Very elegant how you disqualified yourself intellectually and simultaneously help my point against you in such a short paragraph. Thank you!

[Torric]

Whelp, at least the chances of them filling it up with fugly foliage so you cannot see anything from a LCT cockpit are pretty low this time around, but they will find a way to force thermal view nonetheless i am afraid

The main issues with that huge open space on original alpine is that it only further increases the power gap between IS and clan because clan range, and the possibility be stuck with a mech that only got 270m of effective range... and no cover at all to get into brawling distance.

[Midax]

Maps need freedom to move around with cover to break LOS. The two new maps have that and it looks like the new alpine will too. I will not miss the mountain.

[Red Shrike]

I do hope the new alpine map either keeps its current flatness or becomes even more flat. I'm tired of corridor shooter (Call of Duty ring a bell?) style maps.

Right now, quite a few of the maps are more like the trenches of WW1 where everyone is taking potshots at each other (and the first team to climb out of the trenches looses) until there is no one left.

Grisbane, on 11 September 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

it's literally a complete waste of their time.

No it ain't. Unless of course you are alone.

While he's talking about a WoT map, I feel it is relevant here in MWO as well:

Quote

And they'd all sit there looking at each other and going "Go on then, you first.". And whoever was brave or stupid enough to go into the forest first, nobody would back them up. Instead they'd all sit there on that little hill at the back.
The guy that went in first would die in a blaze of gunfire from the tank destroyers. Maybe one of the tank destroyers would get spotted, the guys at the back would take a couple shots, do a little bit of damage, if they were lucky they might even kill him. And then they'd all sit there looking at each other going "Okay, who's next?"

Edited by Timberwolf581, 11 September 2015 - 06:32 AM.

[Sethliopod]

Seems to me a flattened Alpine would be fine...if you add large sections of tall, thick, entirely destroyable Alpine trees. Large sections that would wreak havoc on pinpoint, offer little protection from LRMS, and not snag you on unseen obstacles. Like cornfields, which could be used for approaching with brawlers.

[990Dreams]

First Alpine screwed over brawlers because there were too few brawling spaces.

Now Alpine will screw over brawlers because there will be even less brawling spaces.

[Red Shrike]

Grisbane, on 11 September 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

there is terrain cover in that map in that forest.. know what you are talking about.

There is now.

Grisbane, on 11 September 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

if Alpine is made flat and wide open, an atlas has no hope, assaults have always been 1st targeted. it's too slow to get in effective range. i know myelf if i drop the map in a mech like the boar's head i'll simply override, detonate and move on to the next match.

All the more reason not to play assault mechs.

[KraftySOT]

Every MW2 map wasnt flat.

But that said. Its either a joke....or he's referring to it being rolling hills and tall mountains. Alpine is already like a MW2 map. It just has a terrible central feature. Im sure theyll do fine with it. It cant possibly be worse. Even a flat plain would be better.

But even the first mission in MW2 Mercs, the training mission, was hilly.

Edited by KraftySOT, 11 September 2015 - 07:22 AM.

[SirSlaughter]

Give us some trees

[Lyoto Machida]

Paigan, on 11 September 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

You amuse me.
That is EXACTELY what I said: One platform, one (main) weapon type.
The versatility comes in combining different platforms (Troopers in infantry platoons or Mechs in a company).

Very elegant how you disqualified yourself intellectually and simultaneously help my point against you in such a short paragraph. Thank you!

Maybe learn to spell properly first before you talk down on someone else's intelligence.

[Chuck Jager]

I would like to see Candy mountain only have the front side able to be climbed by mechs with fewer than 3 JJs. The drops points would need to be rearranged.

I do think with the redo they need to make fixes or completely break the old gathering points. It is bad enough to know there are elements we are missing on the old map, but to have so much good work go into it and have players lemming to the same area without even exploring the new maps is really sad.

I love the first night on a brand new map where the terrain in not a dance dance revolution memory element.

[Red Shrike]

Grisbane, on 11 September 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

yes, because everyone should only play the timberwolf or stormcrow or be banned for not playing meta builds only right? Assaults have a place. if anything certain assaults should not be allowed to spawn on this map for that very reason. there is no way for them to be combat effective

I hate the meta. And no, there are plenty of lights, mediums and other heavies out there that you can play as well. Clan and IS alike.

Assaults certainly have a place, but that place does not take up 70% of the team composition.

Edited by Timberwolf581, 11 September 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

TexAce, on 11 September 2015 - 02:30 AM, said:

Have fun walking around with 50kph looking for where the action is and arriving 10 minutes later.

I personally don't have time for this.

You already have your maps where you don't have to do that. The rest of us would like our maps with a little strategy and tactics to them.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 11 September 2015 - 09:43 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Grisbane, on 11 September 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

they already exist, it's called CW.. pugs are pugs, the only tactic is chaos

No, CW is worse. Lanes, lanes, lanes. Forced tactics.

[oldradagast]

I don't expect silly things like a stock Atlas build, but the game has basically turned into nothing but Lasers, Lasers + Gauss, and maybe a huge pile of small caliber autocannons if you can boat enough of them. Sure, it's efficient, and nobody is claiming the game should use stock loads, but if the game didn't encourage such heavy boating we might not see it so badly.

Unfortunately, three main factors encourage run-away boating
- Pinpoint damage. Boat a bunch of pinpoints weapons, and - poof! - all your damage goes to 1 pixel
- Modules. Free DPS increase on all of a weapon type, but you're limited in module number, so boat weapons
- Quirks. Same idea as modules.

Fixing those issues won't make stock builds viable, but it may kill the stale meta we currently have.

[CtrlAltWheee]

Open maps are what I've been hoping for.

Lower alpine where conquest takes places is fun. Hills provide enough cover.

LRMs might be an issue, or we can just bring ams. Who knows where LRMs will be balance-wise in a few months.

I hope the map is great and helps them feel comfortable making CW maps with more realistic terrain.

[COOL HANDS]

BearFlag, on 10 September 2015 - 08:59 PM, said:

Re-doing Alpine? Why? It's a decent map. It's only failing may be that it's a little too open, VERY little. Maybe make the hill of death less distinct. But Alpline, Tourmaline and Valley Network are classic combos of breakup and openness. These new maps, Forest Colony in particular, are cluttered, snaggy and foggy and all in ways that do not setup good mech battles.

PGI took the wrong approach to map dynamism. Destructible terrain should have been a low priority. What was needed was programmable variety in variable drop points, variable base and collector locations, variable exclusion zones, releasable exclusion zones. Just these would add huge variety to otherwise "stale" maps. You could get a lot more mileage out of Alpine if the base wasn't ALWAYS behind the mountain of death. Consider:

1) Six, for example, possible drop points arranged at sixty degrees of separation around the map periphery and...
2) dropping mechs together, not scattered across two kilometers.

The whole map would get played over the course of several matches.

PGI said they're getting positive feedback on Forest Colony. From whom? That map is a clutter disaster which singly convinced me to stop driving lights. It incorporates all the lessons learned from previous map complaints. Unfortunately, the lessons were of what not to do.

Snags. It took forever to get rid of the silly statues in old River City. PGI then promptly doubled down on snagginess with Viridian. Stumps you can go though or can't, stumps you can go over or can't, branches you can walk right through or can't. Viridian also introduced stairs that are stairs and stairs that aren't stairs.

Ground cover plants. Useless and abundant on Forest. Much of it is taller than my Locusts. If it obscures vision and nothing else, it is game irrelevant and should not be there.

Trees. Yeah, I know, it's "Forest" Colony. Still, we didn't learn from Taiga. There are too many of them. This is where BT ground infantry would be fighting not lumbering ambush magnets.

Night. People loved River City Night so much PGI decided to bring it back in the form of dusk and dawn transitions. Thanks.

Pea Soup. By this time Frozen City should be the last relic of the pea soup atmospherics infatuation. But no. It was initially so bad in Viridian they "had" to tone it down. Old River City was detested for its areas of thick, screen-washing smoke/haze. Forest Colony has it thick enough to cut with a knife at transitions. There should be only two types of atmospheric hazes. One, a light effect to simulate distance - but never obscure. Two, smoke columns (NOT area effects) which should block vision. Really, why build a pretty map and then wash it out with fog??

The result of all this is confused, unconventional fighting on Forest. If you stop for a second in a light you may get cored by an unseen and unseeable enemy. A LOT of blind fire with or without instrumentation goes on. Just watch guys blast away at a hillside because they've got lock on red behind the hill. ECM is the OP weapon on Forest.

Generally, mech battles are direct-fire, I-see-you-you-see-me fighting. If someone gets the drop on you, you know you can spin around and see him slinking behind a corner - or worse, staring you down. The reason that many dislike LRMs is because they're the only indirect fire weapon in the game. All other weapons require exposure and possibility of counter-fire. Not on Forest. He may be a thousand or two hundred meters away. But when you spin around to the fire direction, nothing. Trees, foliage, fog and ECM. Better move.

The point to this long post is to remind PGI that I'm here to fight mechs, not maps. The trend towards cloistered maps is a bad one. Forest is a beautiful map. It's not a good mech battle map. Alpine is good map. Don't mess with too much.

I disagree the new Forest Colony and River City are the best maps I've played. There not predictable for one or drive the mechs to the center of the map forcing a stalemate. They also provide various routes and options that wasn't there before PGI redid them and the dawn to dusk cycles is a nice touch and gives it more atmosphere.

I hope all the old maps get the same treatment especially Frozen city. That map is the most predictable out the whole bunch and needs a total makeover.

[Yellonet]

Yeah let's hope it's more than scenery to be looked at while you walk to the same spot in the middle and fight, as in new Forest Colony...

Edited by Yellonet, 11 September 2015 - 02:11 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

oldradagast, on 11 September 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

I don't expect silly things like a stock Atlas build, but the game has basically turned into nothing but Lasers, Lasers + Gauss, and maybe a huge pile of small caliber autocannons if you can boat enough of them. Sure, it's efficient, and nobody is claiming the game should use stock loads, but if the game didn't encourage such heavy boating we might not see it so badly.

Unfortunately, three main factors encourage run-away boating
- Pinpoint damage. Boat a bunch of pinpoints weapons, and - poof! - all your damage goes to 1 pixel
- Modules. Free DPS increase on all of a weapon type, but you're limited in module number, so boat weapons
- Quirks. Same idea as modules.

Fixing those issues won't make stock builds viable, but it may kill the stale meta we currently have.

Well, PGI wants the meta a certain way (prob to sell mechs) or they would change something.

[Lykaon]

Davers, on 10 September 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

The problem with Alpine isn't that there was too much cover. It was because there was One Hill To Rule Them All. Fighting in almost every other part of the map was fun. I really don't see how flat barren landscapes will make the game better.

Well it makes it better for clan pilots with clan ER Lrg Lasers and gauss rifles and ER-PPCs and half tonnage LRMs...