772 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

give me back my weapon quirks.

weapon quirks werent perfect but at least they made mechs feel different in appreciable ways

now the biggest difference between mechs is how fast they detect things at short or long range. the worst part is pauls calling that information warfare. its not. information warfare is blocking information or giving deliberate misinformation. its about screwing with the opponents heads. information warfare is NOT about detecting things fast or slow at short or long range. thats paulformation warfare. and nobody wants that or even cares about that.

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There is no place for role warfare

I dont believe that for a second. Give light mechs the ability to spoof fake targets, drop remote sensor probes, sever enemy mechs from sharing sensor data with teammates, disrupt hud/sensor info in a static area, hack enemy missiles and make them turn back on them, etc... and youll definitely see a new role emerge.

There is absolutely a place for role warfare. There just arnt any tools in the game to conduct it properly. There needs to be a swiss army toolbox like iNARC with multiple ammo types for different purposes. ECM also needs Ghost ECM mode to spoof fake signatures. And BAP should let you drop remote sensor probes that can detect enemy mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 11 September 2015 - 05:28 PM.

[Felbombling]

While this all seems well and good, how exactly are you going to factor in 'firepower' when a Mech can slap on an XL engine and upgrade six Medium Lasers to six Medium Pulse Lasers, or three Large Lasers, or two Large Pulse Lasers or two ER PPC, etc?

If you look on YouTube right now, The B33f has two hilarious videos up that show a Dire Wolf with eleven ER PPCs one-shotting Mechs and then immediately shutting down afterwards. As funny and absurd as that build is, it does seem to bend your Mech Lab and game mechanics to the extreme. From what I've read, I just don't see how you are going to account for or reign in builds like that.

I'm hopeful that things can get evened out, but I think the very nature of the Mech Lab and the freedom within it that you insist on giving your players will ultimately make game balance impossible.

[Chef Kerensky]

MischiefSC, on 11 September 2015 - 05:10 PM, said:

Quit you mean. Not interested in playing Clan, so I'd be playing something else.

The fundamental issue with Role Warfare is that we're 12 v 12. 2 scouts on 1 side are useful for about 2 minutes - at which point for the whole rest of the match it's now 12 v 10. A dedicated scout mech is wasted tonnage. It's nice, sure. Until the scouting is done. At the point the shooting starts a scout is useless.

You have concepts in BT TT like scouts and recon and such because the population of mechs is asymetric and balanced by a (otherwise completely broken) BV system. It was also most the time PvE: one side was players, the other side the GM running the bad-guys who were pre-created and pre-balanced with a perfect 100% fore-knowledge of the player setup for the purpose of making a fun and balanced game.

There is no real use for scouts in MW:O. Now, a solid fighting light with some scouting-perks on top of being a useful fighting member of the team? Sure, so long as they can scout without leaving the fold.

I get that the existing quirk system was mostly broken and not doing what was wanted. I'm game with giving a new system a try. If there's a comprehensive and actually effective this time balance between IS and Clan weapons coming along with it I'm very happy to consider it.

Sensor stuff though.... it affected me for about 3 matches. At which point it wasn't relevant anymore. It does make the game worse for new players but veteran players are going to just play like everyone has ECM. Same as we've been doing in CW when you're playing IS vs Clans. It's not new or challenging or relevant.

All dakka and SRM builds that were even marginally viable are dead too.

I'm game for starting over but wow, this is many miles away from something really playable competitively.

That is 100% spot-on, yes.

[Coordinator Toxic Kerensky]

Khobai, on 11 September 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

give me back my weapon quirks.

weapon quirks werent perfect but at least they made mechs feel different in appreciable ways

now the biggest difference between mechs is how fast they detect things at short or long range. the worst part is pauls calling that information warfare. its not. information warfare is blocking information or giving deliberate misinformation. its about screwing with the opponents heads. information warfare is NOT about detecting things fast or slow at short or long range. thats paulformation warfare. and nobody wants that or even cares about that.



I dont believe that for a second. Give light mechs the ability to spoof fake targets, sever enemy mechs from sharing sensor data with teammates, disrupt hud/sensor info in a static area, hack enemy missiles and make them turn back on them, drop remote sensor probes, etc... and youll definitely see a new role emerge.

There is absolutely a place for role warfare. There just arnt any tools in the game to conduct it properly.

He was definitely talking about your hypothetical scenario (that has a 0% chance of happening) that you hadn't posted yet and not about the game as is.

Edited by Coordinator Aigis Kurita, 11 September 2015 - 05:29 PM.

[FupDup]

Kiiyor, on 11 September 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

I've never relied on sensors anyway. There's enough ECM around, and mechs like the HellBringer are such a threat that I rely on my eyeball anyway.

I really need to jump in and test this, because I have a sinking feeling in my stomach...

Be afraid, be very afraid. It's basically the result of dividing by zero.

[Kaptain]

So Paul didn't like the old arbitrary quirk system that was implemented and changed without his oversight so he threw the entire thing out and started again with a new and seemingly arbitrary quirk system. I'm sure we are only a patch or two away from balance now. /sarcasm

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I hope that the four aspects are weighted with multipliers.

For instance, mobility should maybe get a 0.8 multiplier, while firepower gets a 1.2 and InfoTech gets a 0.5. Have durability be the baseline at 1.0.

Obviously, the multipliers need to be balanced properly, but some things are obvious: firepower is overwhelmingly important, while InfoTech, barring a rather major rework of all aspects (ECM and electronic warfare generally, radar, modules, accuracy/precision/convergence, etc.), is going to be almost trivial compared to the rest.

[James Wirth]

Quote

No, you clearly want god mechs. Omni mechs in this game are stronger than the TT versions, and you're still calling them neutered, while declaring yourself a "trueborn" clan pilot, when you can't handle how the clan mechs operate. We've kept TT heat costs, while giving you a heat threshold of 68 on average.
you want all the advantages with none of the drawback (btw, omni tech in this game is very close to TT, and lore implementation)

Also, you clearly never paid attention, most clan mechs have no negative quirks on them. Save for some pods on the TBR, SCR, and the DWF, and even then, they are still great mechs. In fact, the three I listed are still considered tier 1 mechs. For the most part, the attempt has been done through buffing IS, and trying to restrict some of the clan dominance.

Interesting assessment coming from a freebirth Davion pilot. And considering that this thread is being dominated by IS players, I am curious as to whether or not other Clan loyalists will agree with me, rather than you?

[Bigbacon]

One thing that might actually change for adding role warfare is HUGE maps where a scout type mech could actually help.

Going to be interssting although all the test users will figure out a new meta and everyone will follow suite.

[Castle Actual]

Are we STILL trying to balance Clan tech and IS to the same power level? Institute a BV system and make drop decks based on that and stop using the lore as a butt wipe. We play this game because it's a BATTLETECH game not some random stompy bot game like Hawken or Armored Core or something that has no rich universe behind it. Clans are supposed to be OP compared to inner sphere mechs and certain mechs are supposed to be better than others. Embrace it and figure out ways to account for that power in the way the matches and/or drop decks are structured.

I agree the quirk system isn't the best but to try and bring every mech in each tonnage range into the same power bracket you might as well have mechs with no weapons and run around to pick up guns that are placed in the same spot every time on every map like Halo multiplayer or something. I don't want to see MWO go there.

[wanderer]

Vaderman, on 11 September 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

If Clan mechs were never meant to be superior to IS mechs then....

Why are they more expensive?

They already have most of the stuff an IS 'Mech needs pre-installed. Once you slap in DHS, endosteel, etc. the prices tend to match up.

[Mustafa Kemal Ataturk]

All you have to do to win in this game is form a line so it's like chess in that regard

[cSand]

dudes yes

I hope this works out well.


I won't be testing cause I'm gonna try to level some new mechs. But, looking forward to the release.

All you naysayers can suck one. People b**ch and whine for PGI to try some changes, then they do and guess what. People still b**ch and whine. What else is new.
It's not like this is the final balancing effort and that's it, they straighten the tie and walk away. Imagine this as the groundwork. So hopefully with enhanced targeting quirks and stuff will come a rework of LRM locking and other such stuff. Or ECM. Or w/e else everyone complains about.

Good times. I personally love a mix up. I will actually be disapointed if it's totally awesome and there are no threads of tears for me to soak in and enjoy at my lunch break.

Edited by cSand, 11 September 2015 - 05:44 PM.

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

Castle Actual, on 11 September 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

Are we STILL trying to balance Clan tech and IS to the same power level? Institute a BV system and make drop decks based on that and stop using the lore as a butt wipe. We play this game because it's a BATTLETECH game not some random stompy bot game like Hawken or Armored Core or something that has no rich universe behind it. Clans are supposed to be OP compared to inner sphere mechs and certain mechs are supposed to be better than others. Embrace it and figure out ways to account for that power in the way the matches and/or drop decks are structured.

I agree the quirk system isn't the best but to try and bring every mech in each tonnage range into the same power bracket you might as well have mechs with no weapons and run around to pick up guns that are placed in the same spot every time on every map like Halo multiplayer or something. I don't want to see MWO go there.

"rich universe"

[Sputty]

MechWarrior James, on 11 September 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

Interesting assessment coming from a freebirth Davion pilot. And considering that this thread is being dominated by IS players, I am curious as to whether or not other Clan loyalists will agree with me, rather than you?

Clan mechs are currently more powerful than IS mechs, higher alphas, more DHS, faster mechs with clan XLs make them currently better than IS mechs. If you think otherwise you aren't paying attention to the numbers. DHS numbers, alpha numbers, speed and clan XL advantage is all real and I play clans because of that.

The planned quirk changes are the complete death of IS mechs



That mech will overheat after 2 alphas of damage in the 40s while a timberwolf can perform the exact same as it is now

[Khobai]

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So Paul didn't like the old arbitrary quirk system that was implemented and changed without his oversight so he threw the entire thing out and started again with a new and seemingly arbitrary quirk system. I'm sure we are only a patch or two away from balance now. /sarcasm

Weapons quirks are what WE wanted. We wanted them to differentiate mechs so they werent all the same. We asked for them FOR A REASON.

In moderation the weapon quirks were fine. But instead of nerfing clan weapons down the same level as IS weapons they gave IS insane weapon quirks that broke the game.

All they had to do was nerf clan weapons and reduce some of the IS quirks back to normal levels. That wouldve been a fine rebalance and a positive step forward for the game.

Instead the game is about to take three steps backwards, all mechs are going to be pretty much the same again, and literally the biggest difference between mechs is going to be how fast or slow they detect things at short or long range. lol.

to illustrate how stupid this is: changing the dire wolfs arms makes its sensors better or worse. Theres absolutely no weapon quirks attached to its arms. Just sensor quirks. And I think there was one or two torso twist quirks. But neither of those should have anything to do with an arm. It doesnt make any sense.

Paulformation warfare lolol

Edited by Khobai, 11 September 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[wanderer]

Daynar, on 11 September 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

I believe that one step IS the sensor system issue. Seismic, Magnetic Anomaly Detection, Infer-vision, low-light were pretty much standard sensor suits in all mechs. As was radar. Though to be honest RADAR is accurate but hard as heck to read.


As well as how LRMs are handled currently were everyone is by default equipped with a C4 system for target sharing.

I love this line. Right here.

If I had C3 by default in my 'Mech for target sharing, I could take a shot at 1000 meters using your targeting screen instead at 200. My LRMs would be INNNNNNVINCIBLE!

Indirect fire in Battletech only requires another friendly unit with line of sight. That's it. It does happen to add an additional +1 if the target is doing any shooting itself. If you're gonna whinge about indirect fire in MWO, at least get it right.

Quote

One idea I have had for awhile is shifting LRMS a bit to a two mode system.

From 180 meters to 300 meters they can only work in DIRECT fire mode.

From 300 meters plus they work as they do now in INDIRECT mode.

Direct fire would be flat line to the target.

And players would HAVE to actively switch modes.

Meanwhile, laserboy points, clicks, and shoots. Win!

[thinkn bout thos Beans mans game]

MechWarrior James, on 11 September 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

Interesting assessment coming from a freebirth Davion pilot. And considering that this thread is being dominated by IS players, I am curious as to whether or not other Clan loyalists will agree with me, rather than you?

Ok, coming from the official PGI approved IlKhan, you are about to get your wish for IS mechs to be worthless (moreso than now), and you can then play pve versus some light posts.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Nicely done pgi. I knew you would be able to balance stuff out. I never ever thought 1 sec you would fail, NEVER.

Awesome job again paul



°irony off°

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 11 September 2015 - 05:52 PM.

[beerandasmoke]

MechWarrior James, on 11 September 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

Interesting assessment coming from a freebirth Davion pilot. And considering that this thread is being dominated by IS players, I am curious as to whether or not other Clan loyalists will agree with me, rather than you?

You do realize that when the data comes in showing that clans are stomping 90% of the time like in postclan prequirk era hes going to take that nerfbat and beat clanmechs with it. How about some massive duration and cooldown nerfs for clanweapons? Do you think you would like that? This coming from a clan "loyalist" who has bought every clan pack. This balance pass is no good for anyone.