772 replies to this topic

[TorinZ]

I was a little concerned with the removal of the weapon quirks, but it was probably needed to be done before a time line change can take place. I think there was something mentioned of possibly moving the timeline to 3058. If that is the case, IS will see the rest of the Extended Range Lasers, X-Pulse Lasers, more AC choices, the rest of the Streaks and MRMs. Adding in those weapons will hopefully bring the weapon balance a little closer between IS and Clan. I am looking forward to see how these changes (after some revisions) work out in the long term.

[Styxx42]

Good to to know.
now give us our Cbills back for supporting your Gama Level testing.

[hercules1981]

(First off, let me explain the reason why this rebalance is happening) Paul's statement then whatever it is he says afterwards.
Reality..... someone couldn't figure out how to make the matchmaker deal with a 9 vs 12 or 10 vs 12 clan vs IS system. All this other crap is a direct result of this. Clans should be better and just have less players on the team and if it ment no mixing of IS and clan teams then so be it. Clan vs clan or IS vs IS could still happen 12 vs 12

Edited by hercules1981, 11 September 2015 - 08:02 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

So many people here are under the impression that sims and FPS are mutually exclusive. They are not. "First Person Shooter" merely describes the primary activity and the viewpoint. ArmA is an FPS. It is also a simulator. Technically, War Thunder and IL-2 are also first-person shooters, just from a pilot seat. They are also simulators.

There are also levels of simulation. ArmA and War Thunder are incredibly detailed and accurate in their representations. Wing Commander is not, it's arcade-y.

The previous MechWarrior games were also arcade-y. They weren't any more mechanically detailed than MWO, actually probably less so.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

MischiefSC, on 11 September 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

Like 100 people play Movie Battles on a good night. It's a small community and plays like a small community. That's like comparing bacon and oranges. Are you saying that if the only game mode it had was Jedi vs Droids that it would still fill up all the time? Because that's what we're discussing here. One side is always Jedi, one side always Droids.

Megameks, again, doesn't play like a FPS and was better balanced than the actual TT game, allows almost no customization and is non-persistent. Hit/miss is dice-roll driven and is closer in balance to MW:O than tabletop was. Plus, again, each player is several mechs. You don't need 1 player for each mech like MW:O does so 1 player with 12 mechs vs 1 player with 8 mechs isn't the same as telling 12 players they're going to get a 0.8 KDR and 8 players they get a 1.5 KDR baseline and expecting 70% of people to want the lower KDR role.

All of this is moot, given that PGI, for whatever other questionable balance choices they have made have already nixed this terrible idea.



Hell no. The new system teaches you to play without locks at all; why bother, you're brawling with people before you have the chance. I've seen less locks, not more.

Yeah and they play it constantly for like 13 years now and are still very a live gaining new players.

We are discussing here asymmetrical balance. Some just don`t believe that can be archived, MBII clearly show that can be and is pretty fun to in pack hunting OP jedis, so fun than many play it constantly for more then 10 years now. That alone should tell people something. And yeah you got mods in MB2 where one side is always Jedis while other Droids, that proove more then?

You seams to not know what MegaMek is. It is TT, but on comp. Every thing is same, and you can set up your games in MegaMek what ever you like to, with what ever customization you wish for. But playing on comp is significantly faster and easier, so thing on comp is tested to the limits with thousands games, more then ever Dev Team was able to play RL TT in their live time.

PGI went to symmetrical unbalance and is learning hard way that is quiet impossible to do while a base source material in their rots is asymmetrically balanced, without destroying all fun and flavor. Its like you want to have an orange juice cocktail, but you pick up all but apples. If you want to make BT game, you need to keep with BT, if not hell go and do what ever you like.

[LORD ORION]

Paul Inouye, on 11 September 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

Blah blah blah

Let's be realistic here. Your balancing efforts are based on the perceptions of the underhive. (which mean they are on crack because you are trying to maximize profits by catering to feel-good vibes for the morons)

The glaring most obvious example is the extended range large lasers.
CERL was nerfed into the ground from it's original iteration ad now we have negative quriks on clan mechs that FORCE certain builds.
On top of that we have mechs running around with even better stats than the original CERL iteration. (quirks that result in 911 range, reduced heat, lower beam duration and faster RoF)

Anything you say on this topic is blowing smoke up people's arses in an attempt to prevent their panties from getting into a twist so they spend more money.

Just remove all quirks.
Prorate C-bills based on the battle value you are bringing into a regular 15 minute match. (do 1000 damamge in a timberwolf will net you proportionally less c-bills thjan doing 1000 dmg in an Orion)
Allow IS to take more mechs and more tonnage into CW. (say 6 mechs and 300 tons of unquirked mechs)

Considering how many mechs ./ weapons are worthless at "play to win" levels... I am immediately skeptical about anything PGI has to say on balance.

[MischiefSC]

We just got done going over why 8v12 or 10v12 wouldn't work. It's not the MM, it's creating some sort of artificial control of player populations and getting one group to always play a sub 1.0 KDR role and the other a above 1.0 KDR role, etc. etc.

[hercules1981]

MischiefSC, on 11 September 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

We just got done going over why 8v12 or 10v12 wouldn't work. It's not the MM, it's creating some sort of artificial control of player populations and getting one group to always play a sub 1.0 KDR role and the other a above 1.0 KDR role, etc. etc.

Well if that's the reason then fine whatever I still think it should have Been tried regardless of whatever complications there may have been

[Veev]

Just logged onto the PTS, promptly logged off without playing any matches. All I saw was structure buffs, scan speed buffs at range and nerfs to acceleration, deceleration and turn speed. Now you can pilot a medium mech designed for brawling that can scan mechs at range faster and handles like an assault with half the armor but has increased structure.

Why am I less than optimistic about these changes? I might play a few matches tomorrow, but right now I do not have a lot of confidence in it. I am still waiting for them to give more rewards for actual role warfare and I do not see it happening any time soon.

[MischiefSC]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 11 September 2015 - 08:09 PM, said:

Yeah and they play it constantly for like 13 years now and are still very a live gaining new players.

We are discussing here asymmetrical balance. Some just don`t believe that can be archived, MBII clearly show that can be and is pretty fun to in pack hunting OP jedis, so fun than many play it constantly for more then 10 years now. That alone should tell people something. And yeah you got mods in MB2 where one side is always Jedis while other Droids, that proove more then?

You seams to not know what MegaMek is. It is TT, but on comp. Every thing is same, and you can set up your games in MegaMek what ever you like to, with what ever customization you wish for. But playing on comp is significantly faster and easier, so thing on comp is tested to the limits with thousands games, more then ever Dev Team was able to play RL TT in their live time.

PGI went to symmetrical unbalance and is learning hard way that is quiet impossible to do while a base source material in their rots is asymmetrically balanced, without destroying all fun and flavor. Its like you want to have an orange juice cocktail, but you pick up all but apples. If you want to make BT game, you need to keep with BT, if not hell go and do what ever you like.

Okay, so make the sum total of everyone who plays MB2 play just that one game mode. All the time, as the only way to play it.

THen get literally 50 or 60x that many people to decide it's fun and join the game, just to play that mode.

I played megamek tons.

Does each player only get 1 mech? Perhaps we're playing a different game? Also, does MegaMek play with the exact same stats as TT did/does?

Even in MegaMek Clans is mostly against the bot.

Which, again, is all irrelevant when compared to a FPS game. You can't even get pug teams to play for the win as it is, people regularly suicide, losing the match for their team to get 1 more kill. You want them to, in a 70% majority, to play a role that always has a lower KDR?

Again, all moot. Already settled by PGI, fortunately, which is why we actually still have players after the Clans were introduced.

[Yokaiko]

hercules1981, on 11 September 2015 - 08:17 PM, said:

Well if that's the reason then fine whatever I still think it should have Been tried regardless of whatever complications there may have been

Still should.

[Veev]

MischiefSC, on 11 September 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

We just got done going over why 8v12 or 10v12 wouldn't work. It's not the MM, it's creating some sort of artificial control of player populations and getting one group to always play a sub 1.0 KDR role and the other a above 1.0 KDR role, etc. etc.

K/D should not be the only focus... Thats the reason PGI has never gotten role warfare right nor managed to get balance right.

[Yokaiko]

Veev, on 11 September 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

K/D should not be the only focus... Thats the reason PGI has never gotten role warfare right nor managed to get balance right.

Nothing to do with 7 generations of knee jerk balance changes without ever touching the underlying issues, nope.

[MischiefSC]

Veev, on 11 September 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

K/D should not be the only focus... Thats the reason PGI has never gotten role warfare right nor managed to get balance right.

That's the player focus, in every FPS every played in PvP multiplayer. Not PGI.

Tell you what - get a private match ladder game going with 12v10 or 12v8 game design for IS vs Clans and see how many people you get for it. Have it every Monday or whatever and see how many people consistently show up every time.

There are reasons that no big FPS PvP game has ever had a system run that way.

*edit* backing out of this sidebar, that's not the basis of this thread, don't want to derail (worse).

Quirk changes are.... I dunno. Maybe the start of something good. Unbalanced currently and in need of more work.

[Yokaiko]

Just peddaling around the mechlab it looks like a spitball, it makes literally no sense in the context that the game is played.

Leads one to wonder "who came up with this crap" .....except we know.

[Yokaiko]

I got one, which moron decided it was a good idea to put a RED number over everyone's head?

Do they have no concept of what we do with doritos? WE ******* SHOOT THEM!

.....doesn't matter, even in a light its nearly impossible to get a lock, infowarfare, yeah, watching a Gargles run around 300m in front of me in a DK and not being able to lock it.


Jesus Christ in a Pogostick.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

MischiefSC, on 11 September 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

Okay, so make the sum total of everyone who plays MB2 play just that one game mode. All the time, as the only way to play it.

THen get literally 50 or 60x that many people to decide it's fun and join the game, just to play that mode.

I played megamek tons.

Does each player only get 1 mech? Perhaps we're playing a different game? Also, does MegaMek play with the exact same stats as TT did/does?

Even in MegaMek Clans is mostly against the bot.

Which, again, is all irrelevant when compared to a FPS game. You can't even get pug teams to play for the win as it is, people regularly suicide, losing the match for their team to get 1 more kill. You want them to, in a 70% majority, to play a role that always has a lower KDR?

Again, all moot. Already settled by PGI, fortunately, which is why we actually still have players after the Clans were introduced.

MWO has only one mode? Thats news to me. MBII have several mods just like MWO those. Whats your point?

In MegaMek you can set game whatever you wish for. You can also set that one player control one mek, played many games like this. Of course MegaMek is computer version of table top Battetech and use exact same stats, not sure what hard to get.
Never played MegaMek vs bot and I played it ton, you seams to not regardless what you say, be cause you clearly not know exactly what you are talking about.

You guys seams to be slaves of some stats. How about we remove K/D ratio stat then, so you would stop jerr/king off every night seeing your game profile.
So we can have real W/L stat to do so.

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 11 September 2015 - 08:48 PM.

[cSand]

Chef Kerensky, on 11 September 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

Good thing it's going live on the actual game servers on the 22nd, before any feedback can be collected or changes can be made.

You and your own-post-liking pals are just a bundle of fun aren't you? Enough talking with the dogs here though




As the facts roll in, it is becoming pretty obvious that this new system is gonna need a lot of work. So in that way I guess the PTS is doing its job quite well

Edited by cSand, 11 September 2015 - 08:45 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

MischiefSC, on 11 September 2015 - 05:10 PM, said:

Quit you mean. Not interested in playing Clan, so I'd be playing something else.

The fundamental issue with Role Warfare is that we're 12 v 12. 2 scouts on 1 side are useful for about 2 minutes - at which point for the whole rest of the match it's now 12 v 10. A dedicated scout mech is wasted tonnage. It's nice, sure. Until the scouting is done. At the point the shooting starts a scout is useless.

You have concepts in BT TT like scouts and recon and such because the population of mechs is asymetric and balanced by a (otherwise completely broken) BV system. It was also most the time PvE: one side was players, the other side the GM running the bad-guys who were pre-created and pre-balanced with a perfect 100% fore-knowledge of the player setup for the purpose of making a fun and balanced game.

There is no real use for scouts in MW:O. Now, a solid fighting light with some scouting-perks on top of being a useful fighting member of the team? Sure, so long as they can scout without leaving the fold.

I get that the existing quirk system was mostly broken and not doing what was wanted. I'm game with giving a new system a try. If there's a comprehensive and actually effective this time balance between IS and Clan weapons coming along with it I'm very happy to consider it.

Sensor stuff though.... it affected me for about 3 matches. At which point it wasn't relevant anymore. It does make the game worse for new players but veteran players are going to just play like everyone has ECM. Same as we've been doing in CW when you're playing IS vs Clans. It's not new or challenging or relevant.

All dakka and SRM builds that were even marginally viable are dead too.

I'm game for starting over but wow, this is many miles away from something really playable competitively.

Seriously, what kind of TT did you play? We used to play PVP all the time, and didn't have this "broken" BV system you seem to mention.

[Threat Doc]

I absolutely love how the numbers and the mechanics that have already been built, are already available, and you guys are just absolutely ignoring the **** out of anything you can't create for yourself. {shakes head}

"For all your wisdom, Mithrindia, you are not wise."