772 replies to this topic

[Nik Kerensky]

Jesus H Christ! Bring back the weapon quirks; how can each mech have an individual feel with just sensor and armour quirks??

We should be adding more quirks, not removing any ffs.

[Nik Kerensky]

Ghazzy, on 11 September 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

We need weapons quirks too! That and the fact that most of these are actually nerfs for IS. This is in no way acceptable. You are removing most of the quirks that made some mechs unique! This needs to go back to the drawing board NOW.

Even though some things are nice like the Atlas Structure buffs. It's still not good enough! Even mechs that aren't supposed to be super weapon boats still need some weapon quirks. You were finally pushing the game the way we needed it to swing. But this undoes ALL OF THAT. It's unacceptable and needs to go in the other direction.

This. Paul please take heed..

[ebea51]

Nice work Paul!
Look forwards to seeing what comes out of the test.

Before getting into it though, a concern I have is 'diamond creep' (or something) where people look at the diamonds for mechs and just pick the overall biggest which could lead to some tonnage bracket mechs never getting used.
I.E. CDA has the 'largest' overall diamond, so all other 35T mechs never get used.
... or
I.E. In the MEDIUM range, everyone just chooses a 55T mech with the largest diamond and forget about everything in the 40T, 45T and 55T ranges.

BUT

Dude, I have faith you guys will get it right - you've been nailing everything since you became your own people. Good luck!!

[XxCulannxX]

I'm not interested, in involving myself in too much of this debate, so take whatever I say as you will. I'm a casual player at best.

I was against the "quirkening" to begin with as I felt that there really wasn't any reason to do it. The theory that IS needed more firepower, just didn't seem true for me personally. With speed, and quick recycling time, I was able to hold my weight against Clan mechs of equal tonnage. That being said, my opinion changed some what in the very open maps of CW. Considering the last point I ask: Where is the logic of allowing just "playable" IS mechs in a game mode where they will always face mechs that are superior? Isn't the lack of CW play already an issue? I can predict one thing for sure, if IS mechs return to previous levels as some players wish or just quirked enough to make them "playable" CW will die even faster than it already is. People who are IS diehards will quit playing, newer people are less likely to play due to the expensive clan tech. Finally IS units die, to the point where all we see in the solo and group queues will mainly be Clan mechs with the occasional IS mech for the lols. Probably should end that sort of thinking now.

As for the proposed changes I don't mind in the slightest, IS mechs should be "tanky" and Clan mechs can have slightly better sensors. As long as there is a serious change in the way ECM and IW in general. Also if this were to occur IS needs ALOT more ECM mechs. I don't find the weapon differences to be too great, most of the weapon quirks just allow for higher DPS causing the need for more heatsinks at the moment of time anyways. The spread out damage of clan weapons leads for consistent but lower damage, and forces them to be out in the open longer to get full damage out. If someone is taking full laser or AC damage it is because you stayed out too long to begin with. Outside of CW range is a non-factor as getting close enough with cover to fight within 500m is possible in most maps, so the range advantage is not that penalizing. Though with more armor that should equalize. In any case I agree with pretty much everyone that the system should be well tested before going live. Doing it too early is likely to kill my and probably several others drive to play or spend any money on this game for a while.

[Peiper]

Regarding Sensor quirks:

I do believe that mechs should have an equal baseline in sensors. However, I think modules should be unlockable or purchasable to give mechs 'abilities' appropriate to their role.

Some examples are included in Maximum Tech (FASA 1700).

Included in this list are Long Range and Short Range targeting, which adjusts to-hit rolls according to distance to target. (MWO application: a toggle to allow for faster information gain on targets at chosen range (long/short) which slows info-gathering at the opposite range)

Variable-Range Targeting, in tabletop, allows for using BOTH of the above targetting system, but takes up a crit slot in the head - doesn't weigh anything, just takes up a slot. (MWO: could be a module available only to 'scout' mechs.)

Anti-Aircraft Targeting (No MWO application yet, but maybe could allow for 2000 range target information gathering to targets under a rectacle and in line of sight.)

Multi-Trac targeting In table top reduced penalties when firing at multiple targets in one turn. (In MWO, this could allow for you to lock a second target. Could be a module for 'brawler' mechs.)

Multi-Trac II targeting works the same as above, but also outside of firing arc. (MWO: This acts as regular multi-trac, but acts as target decay or 360 degree radar retention or something. Only scout mechs would have access to these powerful sensors.)

Targeting Computer (This is what the clans have now, added for completeness.)

C3 computer (The functions of a C3 computer in MWO are duplicated by the current sensors and battlefield information. For the purposes of MWO, a C3 equipped mech would automatically target EVERY mech targetted by C3 slaves, that is, relaying every C3 slaved mech's targetting data to everyone on the team. C3 units would be available to 'command' mechs, and slaves available to anyone who wanted to take one. They should all take space and weight, but maybe not 5 tons and 1 ton for a slave like in classic battletech.)

Now, the above are just the ones listed in Maximum Tech. We can go much further in Mechwarrior. A year or two ago, I wrote an extensive list of these options to Paul personally and in the forums. If he wants me to unearth them he can ask, and I'll gladly do so. In essence, they created for a number of abilities to be given to mechs (whether in the form of modules or actual gear). Some of these included:

Seismic sensors - dropped by a scout mech, which would remain in place and for a number of seconds or minutes, would reveal any seismic activity in an area. They wouldn't provide targeting data, but observers could see if mechs were creeping through a cave or attempting a flank through a pass.

ECM smoke bombs. These would be either launched from a mortar or dropped off and they'd create sensor-blinding smoke clouds - not unlike chaff - which would cause sensor blindness for ALL mechs in an area for a time. (Get out of dodge bombs, left by fast mechs to cover their butts on the way out of a danger zone, perhaps?)

TSEMP beams. Tight-stream electromagnetic pulse beams could be equipped to scout mechs which could be used, like tag, to temporarily fry a mech's sensors. As long as the carrier kept the beam on target, the enemy mech would be sensor-blind. (Scout mechs only, especially useful to blind snipers and LRM boats.)

Tether-drones. These would be UAV's on tethers that could be released by light mechs which would fly like a kite above a scout mech. They could be shot down, causing feedback to the pilot, temporarily blinding the pilot's sensors or causing a temporary black-out effect on the pilot, but as long as they were up, the scout mech could run circles around an enemy formation giving information to their buddies.

Microwave Command Sensors - for command mechs. These would be anti-censor bubbles centered on the command mech like an ECM bubble, but instead of providing information or stopping information gathering, it would simply override any jamming or jamming-like effects in it's radius. Stay near the command mech, and you don't have to worry about things like TSEMP, ECM, artemis, TAG or NARC working on you because the command mech's sensor suite is SO BIG and AWESOME that it overrides that stuff, at least locally. (It also makes the command mechs higher priority targets.)

Thumper-Decoys. These would eject from a foot or ankle, like an RC car and drive around creating a seismic and electronic beacon that would mask as a mech, which would take off in a direction away from the mech. If the mech is currently being targetting, it would force that lock (direct or indirect) to itself. It would serve two purposes. One, as a decoy to buy a few seconds to escape a streak boat or LRM barrage, OR, it could be used to broadcast a false positive on sensors making people believe a mech was moving in such-and-such a direction.

Satellite-Uplink. This would be a boon to LRM boats (which have been gimped by many of my proposed ideas above). For a finite number of seconds with a cooldown, a mech could request information for an orbiting satellite to track a target that would normally be out of sight for the mech, allowing for a sort of extended sensor decay. (Allowed to mechs traditionally relegated to fire support.) This would over-ride radar deprivation.

FASCAM barrage. This would call in an artillery barrage which would lay down a minefield.

Smoke barrage. Artillery barrage of smoke!

Napalm airstrike. This would drop burning fuel all over the targetted area, causing heat spikes for all mechs within.

Signal interception. This piece of equipment would monitor comms and when it heard an air or arty strike being called in, would resequence the words, using a voice synthesizer, and call off a barrage/airstrike. To use, the mech would hit a button, and the nearest red smoke (friend or foe) would be called off.

IFF jammer. I don't know if this is canonical, but something to consider. It would work as a personal ECM unit, but not have a bubble. It could work one of two ways. Either like traditional (tabletop ECM), simply negating bonuses to hit for artemis, tag, narc, and BAP - or - it would make the mech appear to have a blue reticle and/or dorito for a number of seconds. Perhaps it would work only until taken a certain amount of damage which would shake up the delicate electronics?

Also, ECM MUST change.

ECM should work like it does in tabletop, and all mechs should be able to equip it. It wouldn't be as valuable anymore, but that's okay. Either way, though, all of the above equipment/modules/abilities could be put into the game. They could be given to mechs that are otherwise not so popular, as well, to promote mech-diversity.

TLDR

Quirks are not equipment, sensors or modules. Don't nerf or boost sensors, give scout mechs optional equipment and module access to appropriate gear. Same with other roles.

When I think of quirks, I think of a bunch of runners of all shapes, ages, sizes, genders, and ability. You line them up on the track and watch them run. You see some run too slow, so you give them steroids. Others run too fast, so you tie their shoelaces together. You give the fat ones wheelbarrows for their guts, and the old ones walkers. Then they are all equal. Equally bullshizzle.

Old people are wiser, fat people are tougher, young people don't need steroids, men are macho, women are sexy, but they are NOT the same. Instead of trying to make them equal, give the old people (command mechs) access to C3 computers, and superior local sensors/countermeasures to herd the sheep. Give the fat guys (brawlers) multi-tracking and get-out-of-dodge chaff clouds and decoys. Give they young people (scouts) something to do with all that speed and energy, and so on... But don't try to make them equal! That's just silly.

(And don't forget; Mech value aka Battle Value makes MUCH more sense than tonnage, and allows for mechs to be unequal.)

[Will HellFire]

@Paul_Inouye

Please consider the following:

The four pillars you are considering are well chosen, but each one should be weighted differently.

If you balance the Mechs considering each of these pillars equal, you will be making a mistake, as those variants with the best Firepower will _always_ be chosen before those with other pillars being primary.

If you examine the pillars that lead to victories, in my opinion you find that the main game is played with Firepower vs Protection, with Mobility being a factor that multiplies both firepower and protection, and information warfare being a slight multiplier to Firepower.

In my opinion you should consider Balancing the Mechs with a weighted formula, for example:
OfensivePotential = Firepower * Mobility*(0.5) + Sensors;
DefensivePotential = Protection * Mobility*(0.5);
MWOBattleValue=OfensivePotential*(weight1) - Defensive Potential*(weight2)

Theres millions of ways of doing it, just think that the four pillars are valued completely different, and that ultimately, KILLING THE ENEMY Mechs is the objective of any fights, meaning Firepower will ALWAYS be considered primary and Sensors will always be last.

[Krivvan]

Paul Inouye, on 11 September 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

I have to be honest with you; some of you will love this new system, others will hate it (especially those who might rely on 'meta' builds that push the limits of the current Quirk system).

Paul, the current PTS quirks reinforce the meta we already have. All it does is remove the IS mechs that could somewhat compete with the meta. The actual meta itself stays the same, and in some cases was buffed. Many of the overquirked IS mechs weren't actually meta. Meta on the real server are the Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit Clan mechs, with a few special IS cases. On the PTS it's just the Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit Clan mechs.

If we were really just interested in keeping the status quo meta, we'd be jumping for joy at the PTS quirks.

Yeah, I know you're addressing Clan vs. IS balance later, but I just take huge issue with that line there making it sound like the nerfed IS mechs were all that the meta consisted of, and that we're unhappy just because what you think are our favourite mechs were nerfed.

It's just demeaning and dismissive, and so is the line about blaming "certain parties" consulted for imbalance issues. Saying that you were at fault for initially listening to them is just a roundabout way of blaming them which frankly is not a healthy attitude to take towards "competitive" players who helped you on an unpaid volunteer basis. And it's not as if they came up with the quirk system, they had some of their input listened to and other parts of it ignored. Like coming up with the first tier list, but not having the suggestions for how to balance mechs within that tier list listened to.

Edited by Krivvan, 12 September 2015 - 03:12 AM.

[Richter Kerensky]

Peiper, on 12 September 2015 - 01:33 AM, said:

Quirks should simply make crappy mechs playable, not make them equal.

Mech Value should replace tonnage in matchmaking and especially CW.

I don't understand why making IS mechs competitive with Clan mechs isn't the goal here when tabletop metrics like Battle Value probably aren't great for modes where people have three dimensional freedom of movement.

Edited by Richter Kerensky, 12 September 2015 - 03:19 AM.

[Richter Kerensky]

Let me be clear: without major changes to how targets are acquired and held, LRMs will continue to be a joke.

Some kind of laser-guided system would be ideal but I don't think PGI wants to put in the work to make missiles work like a 2004 video game.

[Ruswarr]

I was thinking for some time already and yet I still can't get what PGI is trying to achieve with this "rebalance". At all.
I mean, no matter how I look at it it looks like a very basic concept, not even alpha or beta version - that should not be even seen by players because it is obviously not ready, seemingly taking into account only pure numbers and lists, using who knows what kind of logic.

This "rebalance" is something that probably belong to a game in early stages of development. And MWO is surely not is this stages. You already have the current quirks system for mechs. It surely doesn't work perfectly, but it is something that actually somehow works at this point. And now you essentially throw it away and try to build something from scratch, pretty much making players your involuntary testers - except you don't pay for this but actually still continue to charge money, like nothing is happening.

I'm not even angry or mad at you PGI, but rather still SO confused and disappointed - how could anyone think that throwing absolutely everything away was a good idea? Current PTS changes cannot be counted as rebalance. This is just a new concept that needs A LOT, LOT of polishing and active testing for a few months at the very least. It is nowhere close to being ready to hit live servers. And if it actually hits live servers mostly unchanged (and I'm afraid that this is more than just a possibility, considering how PGI liked to talk about rebalance coming soon™) - I will lose any trust I had in PGI, ask for my Origins pack refund (asking for R1 and CW3 refund wouldn't really be exactly fair even if I'm getting screwed) and uninstall MWO forever. I was willing to pay while MWO direction was predictable enough, I liked it here for this single year I played and I will be sad if I have to leave, but I'm not willing to spend my money and my time on something that will mess eveything up - for my own money and almost without a warning.

Edited by Ruswarr, 12 September 2015 - 03:27 AM.

[Shredhead]

Krivvan, on 12 September 2015 - 03:05 AM, said:

Paul, the current PTS quirks reinforce the meta we already have. All it does is remove the IS mechs that could somewhat compete with the meta. The actual meta itself stays the same, and in some cases was buffed. Many of the overquirked IS mechs weren't actually meta. Meta on the real server are the Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit Clan mechs, with a few special IS cases. On the PTS it's just the Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit Clan mechs.

If we were really just interested in keeping the status quo meta, we'd be jumping for joy at the PTS quirks.

Yeah, I know you're addressing Clan vs. IS balance later, but I just take huge issue with that line there making it sound like the nerfed IS mechs were all that the meta consisted of, and that we're unhappy just because what you think are our favourite mechs were nerfed.

It's just demeaning and dismissive, and so is the line about blaming "certain parties" consulted for imbalance issues. Saying that you were at fault for initially listening to them is just a roundabout way of blaming them which frankly is not a healthy attitude to take towards "competitive" players who helped you on an unpaid volunteer basis. And it's not as if they came up with the quirk system, they had some of their input listened to and other parts of it ignored. Like coming up with the first tier list, but not having the suggestions for how to balance mechs within that tier list listened to.

This, so much.
Since the last balance pass on clan weapons, weapon stats haven't been touched anymore, although they were still needed in many fields. I'm baffled at this dismissive attitude towards comp players who repeatedly told that there's still a boatload of imbalances. I'm looking at you, clan streak srms, ppcs overall, laser range and damage and so on and so forth.
You want to reign in TTK? How about you first look into a second weapon balance pass? Change how LRMs work from the ground up?
Btw, I don't know if you read your own forums, but people are upset about ecm and how it doesn't let them get readouts on enemy mechs. Do you really think not having a lock hinders higher skilled players from killing mechs? You are simply widening the skill gap with this approach!
And why in the world, if you want more brawls to happen, do you nerf targeting times on traditional brawlers and short range strikers, especially lights and mediums? I don't get it!

[Arend]

So PGI intends to have his very own NGE, PGI should really consider the Star Wars Galaxies, so called Game Balance Pass "NGE" as a warning, SWG died if this and MWO will die aswell if this abomination of a Balance attempt goes live!

[Yokaiko]

IraqiWalker, on 12 September 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

Do you understand the meaning of the words "first draft"? Because that's what this is. NONE of these quirks in the PTS are final, in any way shape or form. Hell, so far it looks like this is just the first phase of a much longer program.

Do you understand that traditionally whatever makes it to the Test Server goes live?

[Skarlock]

Yokaiko, on 12 September 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

Do you understand that traditionally whatever makes it to the Test Server goes live?

Looks like it's time to break from tradition then. Let's hope they don't give us a half baked list of quirks on the live servers for absolutely no reason whatsoever, and instead we get the fully fleshed out and balanced quirks between IS and clans.

[Yokaiko]

Skarlock, on 12 September 2015 - 04:02 AM, said:

Looks like it's time to break from tradition then. Let's hope they don't give us a half baked list of quirks on the live servers for absolutely no reason whatsoever, and instead we get the fully fleshed out and balanced quirks between IS and clans.

As it is they basically reset balance to the clan invasion.

[Astrozombi e]

Game fun with current system is near 90-95% for me.

Any attempt to breaking it can:

A. reach same 90-95% game fun result.
B. reach <90-95% game fun result.

odds sad for variant B.

[IlKhan Prepaid Kerensky]

Alright time to post my wall of text about concepts that are key to making this game great.

In games, there's this idea called "fairness" which can be basically defined like this: From the outset of a game both teams have decisions and options available that will give them roughly an equal chance of winning.

Fairness is a really important concept related to "fun" (the act of enjoying something). The less fair a game becomes the less fun it is. This is a state called being unfair. Unfair games are hard to enjoy for the team at a disadvantage because although they might make all the correct decisions, they will mostly lose against someone who is also making correct decisions.

I hope this helps you out Paul! Keep trying!

[Lucky Noob]

Okay, this might Sound Crazy, but how about you can Fire your Weapon Systems only on targets you have an Lock on ?

ECM Rebalance needed for this ofc.

[Peiper]

Richter Kerensky, on 12 September 2015 - 03:11 AM, said:

I don't understand why making IS mechs competitive with Clan mechs isn't the goal here when tabletop metrics like Battle Value probably aren't great for modes where people have three dimensional freedom of movement.

Think of World War II late war tanks. You have the Sherman and T-34/85 (IS mechs) and the Panthers and Tigers (Clan mechs). Could the allied tanks beat the German tanks 1 v 1? Yes, but only if the crew was top-notch and the German tanks were piloted by monkeys. THEY ARE NOT EQUAL TECH. They aren't even in the same league. Giving the allied tanks the ability to move faster, turn their torsos faster, and adding a bunch of ghost armor is STUPID.

To beat the clans, the inner sphere had to use every trick in the book. Okay, fine, so we don't have armor, mine fields, artillery, infantry, fast hovercraft, cardboard decoy mechs, etc... But the clans don't have elementals and warships either. Still, we can use battle value to approximate an even shot between IS and Clan.

Just as the allies had to sacrifice a couple shermans or more to knock out a tiger (the oft-spoken of - what if 5 shermans met a tiger on an open plane? scenario), it might take more tonnage for the IS to knock out the clan mechs. And it should.

Obviously we can't port battle value from tabletop into MWO, but we can create our own mech value, the same way they did for the quirk system. But instead of quirking mechs so they are equal, leave the mechs the way they are naturally, and publish the values for all the mechs. Then use those values in place of tonnage. Here is an explanation of how it could work.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4683938

Now, if that means we'll see Stormcrows vs. Victors and Timberwolves vs. King Crabs, good. That is appropriate. I also would consider allowing uneven teams. If a binary (ten Clanners) want to fight a dozen IS pilots, they could take better mechs to fill up their collective team drop decks. However, from my experience in private lobbies, one extra guy on a team even with a mech like a cicada, tips the odds of winning WAY in the favor of those who have another pilot and mech to shoot at before you and your buddies are killed. However, mech values could allow for those scenarios. (It's also why I gave all mechs a base 200 battle value in my example. because having another mech and pilot of ANY kind on the field is AT LEAST as valuable as any mech. So, if the best of the best mechs are mech value of 400, it is still only half due to the mech type.

[Shlkt]

Downloaded PTS, spent some time looking at mechs. Unfortunately I haven't been able to actually play yet becaue queue times seem infinite.

I'll start with a positive note: the sensor changes are interesting.

Now the negatives:
1) Mobility and sensor changes are interesting, but not interesting enough to justify taking a mech with less than 50% of the offensive capability of another variant. Case in point: SDR-5V. This mech is complete crap.

2) We've lost the most important aspect of the current quirk system, namely that there's a reason to want to try (and therefore buy) many different mechs in order to experience their unique quirks and how those quirks can affect playstyle. The new system doesn't offer a lot of playstyles. You've got tanky mechs, mobile mechs, and mechs that are basically radar dishes with no weapons.

If I already own a tanky heavy mech, why would I buy another? With weapon quirks I had a reason: one might offer big laser bonuses, while another might let me try souped-up AC/5s. They were different in more ways than just hardpoints and geometry.

2) My Laser/Gauss vomit Timber appears just as menacing as ever... meanwhile there are dozens of lackluster IS mechs that now have pitiful offensive punch in comparison.

3) Huge structure buffs increase the randomness of the game. A mech like the Grid Iron, for example, might waste all of its battle value points on torso structure buffs... and then get his Gauss critted by the first 5 damage that penetrates armor. Totally random, totally unpreventable, and now all your quirks are wasted.

4) It's futile to attempt to balance mechs when weapon balance is still out of whack. The Inner Sphere ER PPC, for example, is terrible. Quirks made it usable on a bare handful of mechs, and now it's usable on none of them.