772 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Wywern, on 15 September 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

R.I.P Locust 1V, I spent millions on you, and now you will only be able to use a bad laser or machine guns. How cruel can the fate of a mech be? ;_;

I was running 1ML + 4MGs or 1 MPL + 4MGs on the 1V before quirks were even a dream, and was doing quite well with the mech.

phatbhuda, on 15 September 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

I've seen this brought up multiple times: "I spent cash on this mech because of the quirks and now you've changed it."

The response I've been seeing is: "well quirks need to change and that's that."

That isn't the point.

If I go to the store and buy a hat, the store can't come in to my house and change the hat's color and style.

Other software companies realize this.

Here's a direct comparison: Wargaming.net. When they make a change to a "Premium Tank" in World of Tanks (which means a tank you can purchase with cash), they open a time window in which you are allowed to sell back that tank for a full refund of in game currency (Gold in this case).

Why can't MechWarrior Online and PGI do the same? When you guys change a mech's quirks or otherwise modify it, you should allow anyone who owns one to return it for a full refund of the currency with which you spent to obtain it. You should already have purchase records (please tell me you maintain mech purchase records) so it should be easy to do for all mechs. If for some reason you don't maintain full transaction records, then at least for the mechs that cost MC and real world currency.

This seems perfectly reasonable.

If you're going to say you're not in beta anymore, this is the sort of customer service you really should offer.

This thinking is absolutely wrong. You NEVER paid for the mechs. This is something you should really realize. All you paid for was EARLY ACCESS. The mechs, and how they change or not, is not something you paid for.

People need to understand that. Also, are we really supposed to allow broken OP mechs to run around and break the game more and more, because you paid for them? Especially when you didn't actually pay for them?

All anyone paid for with mech packs, is early access to the mechs, and some extra goodies.

If you want to prove me wrong, please point to the PGI statement that says the mechs you purchase are not subject to change?

On the other hand, right in the FAQ:

Quote

Q: What guarantees can be made about the balance of these Mechs?

Only that we will try to provide as fair an experience for all players, Clans and IS alike. This may mean "nerfing" or "buffing" some weapons or adding Quirks to the 'Mechs at a later date.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 15 September 2015 - 05:32 PM.

[kka]

I came up with an extremity regarding infotech balancing: (and yes I know PGI is not yet balancing IS vs clan)

Even if you REMOVE THE MINIMAP AND THE ABILITY TO TARGET AN ENEMY FROM ALL CLAN MECHS, I still think clans would be op.

Experienced players 1) know their maps 2) know how to stay grouped and 3) can communicate via teamspeak.

[skorpionet]

IraqiWalker, on 15 September 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

This thinking is absolutely wrong. You NEVER paid for the mechs. This is something you should really realize. All you paid for was EARLY ACCESS. The mechs, and how they change or not, is not something you paid for.

People need to understand that. Also, are we really supposed to allow broken OP mechs to run around and break the game more and more, because you paid for them? Especially when you didn't actually pay for them?

All anyone paid for with mech packs, is early access to the mechs, and some extra goodies.

If you want to prove me wrong, please point to the PGI statement that says the mechs you purchase are not subject to change?

On the other hand, right in the FAQ:

Ehm.....wake up... in game there are Hero mechs.....

[IraqiWalker]

skorpionet, on 15 September 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

Ehm.....wake up... in game there are Hero mechs.....

That was mostly about pack mechs, and the information is still the same for Hero mechs. They are subject to buffs and nerfs. Nowhere does it say that they will keep them as is.

[L Y N X]

I'd like to bring in a perspective that some folks might be missing. Please do not bother reading beyond this point if you have a closed mind.

This game is NOT a persistent MMO. It is a Collectable Mech game. Not unlike a collectible CARD game, we collect mechs. So many people realize this after selling a mech or many mechs to quickly raise C-bills to buy a new Mech or XL engine or some such. They vow like I have to not sell mechs. Why? because one month's worst mech might become next month's best mech.

Then there is the attitude that there are no bad mechs, just bad pilots... (tongue in cheek). Certainly there are mechs that do certain things or perform certain roles better than others. Realize that a team that work well together is far more OP than the most OP of mechs. Many casual players may not agree with that sentiment, but only because they do not play as part of a team.

This is a beginning of a new framework that PGI has shared with us... It is not final. It will evolve. Those crying bloody-murder before experiencing it are identifying themselves to PGI as the ones to be ignored. Experience the changes as they come and then instead of complaining, contribute in a way that either presents ideas to improve or generates ideas from others that improve the game. We all have something in common, we all want this game to succeed. Attitude is that little something that makes all the difference.

[Veev]

I still think it would be cool to have the clan mechs be as powerful as canon has them and just raise the skill ceiling on them.

Remove Ghost heat, twin gauss limitation and gauss charge up from IS weapons systems. Now turn the clans lose and see how that looks for a balanced game. The clan mechs would require more skill to play than the IS mechs, but they are more powerful in theory.

[IraqiWalker]

Veev, on 16 September 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

I still think it would be cool to have the clan mechs be as powerful as canon has them and just raise the skill ceiling on them.

Remove Ghost heat, twin gauss limitation and gauss charge up from IS weapons systems. Now turn the clans lose and see how that looks for a balanced game. The clan mechs would require more skill to play than the IS mechs, but they are more powerful in theory.

Clan mechs ARE as powerful as they were in lore.

You're still suggesting buffing the IS. Take a look at all the quirks currently existing on clan mechs, and you will come to the quick realization that there are very few negative quirks on them, save for the most egregious of pods. Like the TBR-A Right Torso, which has the best energy mounts on that mech, and almost of any heavy, except for the Ebon Jaguar. Both clan mechs.

Clan tech hasn't really been nerfed. Most of the quirks have been buffing IS tech. Which needs the help. Also, NEVER remove Gauss Charge. I don't care what the consequences would be, never remove it. I love my Gauss Rifles, and I use them almost more than any other weapon system in my non-light mechs, but removing charge is a bad idea.

[mad kat]

Please don't bin the weapon quirks on IS mechs. Having great fun in my quirked blackjack with ac2's and even more fun in my troll centurion D with lbx, flamers and machineguns. Even the poor stormcrow it tore apart last night must of been thinking wtf!

Either way the quirks bring a flavour to the inner sphere mechs in that different weapons by different manufacturers perform differently which is entirely feasible given the size of the IS against the clans.

Binning the quirks in favour of infornation sharing is gonna make the game unplayable in solo queue as you sure as hell cant rely on other players.

[Nick86]

Just wanna put in my two pennies..

Quirks were very useful and may well be for a long time. Adds flavour.. most of us like them.

If we're going to rebalance in a way that promotes real role warfare then GREAT. But... surely the achilles heel is weapons. Asymmetric balancing can only go so far. I think you have to pull the gap tighter to start with by allowing MixTech and then tweaking chassis from there. OR you reduce Clan Range for lasers, effectively pulling them back to more like IS levels; MixTech in another form more or less.

Another way to do this would be to give IS their future ER Med lasers, SSRM6s etc for example.. I'm guessing you'd be more likely to go for the latter, but surely something along these lines HAS to happen. - You've already used quirks to do this in some cases, but they are not even - hence the current Meta!

Regarding balance in CW though as a dual account player I can tell you honestly, the real difference at the moment between Clans and IS is Laser Range and IS Trial Mechs/Newbies with no consumables or experience being allowed to play CW.
I think the vast majority of experienced player base realises this.

Thankyou..

Edited by Nick86, 17 September 2015 - 12:30 AM.

[aGeNTo]

beerandasmoke, on 11 September 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

Ive always thought they should make IS mechs more balanced against Clan with the module system. Let the player decide what he wants to run on his mech. Expand the module system out so you can stack modules on one mech. If you have a bad IS mech such as the thunder prequirk then give it 4 module slots. A player has a choice to run heatgen, range, or cooldown on the mech and stack those modules according to his preference. If he wants a sniper he can stack all range. A brawler he goes with heatgen. He wants a balanced build he goes with a little of both. Let us decide what the quirks should be according to our own preference and what our team requires. The worse a mech is the more slots it gets. Let the players figure this out and it will provide more diversity which is what they seem to be striving for.

Ha, that would be awesome! No more fixed quirks, but more modules slots and everyone can kit their mech out as they want. Only for IS though as they really

OR: You remove weapon quirks for everyone, then nerf clan laser heat gen / duration. LRMs can be ignored. Or remove ghost heat from IS guns?

[WANTED]

I love having assymetrical balancing even if I never liked when the table top introduced the clans. I still think it's viable for the game to have this. But maybe do like other games, treat clans like a faction with faction quirks ( + this for firepower, + this for engine and speed, - this for armor, etc ) but boost them just slightly over a regular house ( like 1-5 percent )

Edited by WANTED, 17 September 2015 - 03:02 AM.

[protoKol]

Tennex, on 11 September 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Really love what you guys are going for

Love that mechs are getting looked at from the mobility and armor angle. If this system fails, i would love mobility and armor quirks to be added to our current system.

By removing weapon quirks, it takes another variable out of weapon balancing and just makes weapon balancing so much easier.
It also no long pigeonholes variants into specific builds

Instead of relying on weapon buffs, you guys are replacing them with mobility, protection and information buffs.
Really dig that concept, but its something that would take several months of public play to actually get balanced. (though it seems to me, it would be very arbitrary to decide whether a mech should get mobility, protection, or infowarfare buffs)

Also, huge problem with information warfare. Information warfare part of it is nonexistant, hard to use something as a balance point, when the Information warfare system is so shallow and underdeveloped. So it seems like some artificial depth was attempted with this target acquisition/relay difference btwn chassis.

We need some REAL depth in Information Warfare there needs to be multiple Information Warfare gameplay elements outside of just playing with visual target acquisition.

A new gameplay mechanic sounds terrific. although this adds more work for them in the long run, i think it would be more enjoyable as this is technically more of a tactical semi sim "shooter"

[phatbhuda]

IraqiWalker, on 15 September 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

This thinking is absolutely wrong. You NEVER paid for the mechs. This is something you should really realize. All you paid for was EARLY ACCESS. The mechs, and how they change or not, is not something you paid for.

People need to understand that. Also, are we really supposed to allow broken OP mechs to run around and break the game more and more, because you paid for them? Especially when you didn't actually pay for them?

All anyone paid for with mech packs, is early access to the mechs, and some extra goodies.

If you want to prove me wrong, please point to the PGI statement that says the mechs you purchase are not subject to change?

On the other hand, right in the FAQ:

I've paid for plenty of mechs. Hero variants and I believe champion variants are only purchasable with cash.

Nowhere do I infer that we are "supposed to allow broken OP mechs to runs round and break the game more and more, because you paid for them?". I offer a solution: take the mech back and refund the MC.

If you want to get so meta as to say that if I buy a non-MC-exclusive mech with MC then all I'm doing is taking a time shortcut, then I would take that a step further and say that time is money. So taking the time to sit there and earn the c-bill price instead is costing me money. I wouldn't, since that's getting a little silly. However I would say that if I spent cash on a mech, then that's what I did: spent cash on a mech.

Also, I'm not saying that PGI says that the purchased mechs are not subject to change. What I'm saying is that there's a better solution to that than "oh well, we said they could change."

You can disagree with my suggestion. That's fine. But you can't change what I'm saying to suit your argument.

[L Y N X]

phatbhuda, on 17 September 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

I've paid for plenty of mechs. Hero variants and I believe champion variants are only purchasable with cash.

Nowhere do I infer that we are "supposed to allow broken OP mechs to runs round and break the game more and more, because you paid for them?". I offer a solution: take the mech back and refund the MC.

If you want to get so meta as to say that if I buy a non-MC-exclusive mech with MC then all I'm doing is taking a time shortcut, then I would take that a step further and say that time is money. So taking the time to sit there and earn the c-bill price instead is costing me money. I wouldn't, since that's getting a little silly. However I would say that if I spent cash on a mech, then that's what I did: spent cash on a mech.

Also, I'm not saying that PGI says that the purchased mechs are not subject to change. What I'm saying is that there's a better solution to that than "oh well, we said they could change."

You can disagree with my suggestion. That's fine. But you can't change what I'm saying to suit your argument.
http://i.imgur.com/JjUsaMH.jpg

PhatBhuda, I disagree with your suggestion.

[IraqiWalker]

phatbhuda, on 17 September 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

I've paid for plenty of mechs. Hero variants and I believe champion variants are only purchasable with cash.

Nowhere do I infer that we are "supposed to allow broken OP mechs to runs round and break the game more and more, because you paid for them?". I offer a solution: take the mech back and refund the MC.

If you want to get so meta as to say that if I buy a non-MC-exclusive mech with MC then all I'm doing is taking a time shortcut, then I would take that a step further and say that time is money. So taking the time to sit there and earn the c-bill price instead is costing me money. I wouldn't, since that's getting a little silly. However I would say that if I spent cash on a mech, then that's what I did: spent cash on a mech.

Also, I'm not saying that PGI says that the purchased mechs are not subject to change. What I'm saying is that there's a better solution to that than "oh well, we said they could change."

You can disagree with my suggestion. That's fine. But you can't change what I'm saying to suit your argument.

I changed nothing in your argument. You were complaining about the mechs getting nerfed, and used the example of buying a hat. i.e. that they should remain static. Whether you like it or not. That also includes broken OP mechs remaining broken OP mechs, because they were on release, and upon purchase.

Also, while it's true that I assumed you were talking about mech packs, and I forgot to account for champion, and hero mechs, my argument is still not wrong.

Whether or not you paid for the mechs, PGI should account for balance, and modify them accordingly.

[Asmosis]

phatbhuda, on 15 September 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

I've seen this brought up multiple times: "I spent cash on this mech because of the quirks and now you've changed it."

The response I've been seeing is: "well quirks need to change and that's that."

That isn't the point.

You must be new to online gaming, or multiplayer gaming in general.

Sometimes developers don't get everything absolutely perfect the first time around, and things get balanced and/or changed.

Be thankful that in MWO, mechs don't get 'outdated' like gear does in most other games where new updates = old stuff worthless. And yes, in a lot of those games gear that becomes worthless could have potentially cost hundreds or thousands of dollars to obtain.

[Kali Rinpoche]

phatbhuda, on 15 September 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

I've seen this brought up multiple times: "I spent cash on this mech because of the quirks and now you've changed it."

The response I've been seeing is: "well quirks need to change and that's that."

That isn't the point.

If I go to the store and buy a hat, the store can't come in to my house and change the hat's color and style.

Other software companies realize this.

Here's a direct comparison: Wargaming.net. When they make a change to a "Premium Tank" in World of Tanks (which means a tank you can purchase with cash), they open a time window in which you are allowed to sell back that tank for a full refund of in game currency (Gold in this case).

Why can't MechWarrior Online and PGI do the same? When you guys change a mech's quirks or otherwise modify it, you should allow anyone who owns one to return it for a full refund of the currency with which you spent to obtain it. You should already have purchase records (please tell me you maintain mech purchase records) so it should be easy to do for all mechs. If for some reason you don't maintain full transaction records, then at least for the mechs that cost MC and real world currency.

This seems perfectly reasonable.

If you're going to say you're not in beta anymore, this is the sort of customer service you really should offer.

This is far from reasonable. If PGI introduces something that throws the game out of balance, they have every right to modify it. I am pretty sure it says somewhere in the legal mumbo jumbo that they reserve the right to change anything, anytime. I think you can pretty much request a refund up to two weeks after a purchase? If you played a mech for 45 days and something changes you don't like, you shouldn't be able to get your $$ back or MC. The system your describe could and would be abused. PGI doesn't have 80 million people playing it like WoTs. It needs its revenue to operate. I've purchased everything except Wave III and Sabre. There are a lot of mechs that are junk from these purchases and hardly used but I didn't go asking for my money back. Personally, when I spend recreational money on this game, I'm doing it to support the developers more so than to have a uber-meta killing machine.

I'm pretty sure you're talking about the ACH? It was way overpowered and over twerked!

[hercules1981]

I'm just gonna add this statement again and probably say it again in a few more days just so there is a better chance of people reading it on the newest page if they r not scimming the whole subject. Incorporate a 9 vs 12 system so IS will have superior numbers and then clan mechs can be better like there r supposed to be . Screw this going through another poorly thought of balance scheme. There can be a clan vs clan 12 vs 12 or an IS vs IS 12 vs 12. Clan vs IS 9vs 12.

[Gleech]

phatbhuda, on 15 September 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

I've seen this brought up multiple times: "I spent cash on this mech because of the quirks and now you've changed it."

The response I've been seeing is: "well quirks need to change and that's that."

That isn't the point.

If I go to the store and buy a hat, the store can't come in to my house and change the hat's color and style.

Other software companies realize this.

Here's a direct comparison: Wargaming.net. When they make a change to a "Premium Tank" in World of Tanks (which means a tank you can purchase with cash), they open a time window in which you are allowed to sell back that tank for a full refund of in game currency (Gold in this case).

Why can't MechWarrior Online and PGI do the same? When you guys change a mech's quirks or otherwise modify it, you should allow anyone who owns one to return it for a full refund of the currency with which you spent to obtain it. You should already have purchase records (please tell me you maintain mech purchase records) so it should be easy to do for all mechs. If for some reason you don't maintain full transaction records, then at least for the mechs that cost MC and real world currency.

This seems perfectly reasonable.

If you're going to say you're not in beta anymore, this is the sort of customer service you really should offer.

The Huggin, as a specific example. I and a friend paid Real Money ™ for them, and this patch transforms them from almost-competitive DPS mechs that were fun to play, into bizarre light tanks, which is not at all what we bought. That's not a great idea if you expect to be able to sell us more mechs in the future.

[IraqiWalker]

hercules1981, on 20 September 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

I'm just gonna add this statement again and probably say it again in a few more days just so there is a better chance of people reading it on the newest page if they r not scimming the whole subject. Incorporate a 9 vs 12 system so IS will have superior numbers and then clan mechs can be better like there r supposed to be . Screw this going through another poorly thought of balance scheme. There can be a clan vs clan 12 vs 12 or an IS vs IS 12 vs 12. Clan vs IS 9vs 12.

0 thought about the public queue, I see.

Gleech, on 20 September 2015 - 09:12 PM, said:

The Huggin, as a specific example. I and a friend paid Real Money ™ for them, and this patch transforms them from almost-competitive DPS mechs that were fun to play, into bizarre light tanks, which is not at all what we bought. That's not a great idea if you expect to be able to sell us more mechs in the future.

The Huggin is a broken mech, with obscene quirks, that needed some serious nerfing.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 20 September 2015 - 09:16 PM.