772 replies to this topic

[The Toilet Bro]

After playing the Tukayyid 2 Event I have come to the conclusion that Clan mechs have been heavily Nerfed. Too heavily. Clans should have better tech than IS. It is in the lore. I understand the competitiveness issue as well as the balancing of the game but to put out castrated mechs is far worse I think. Bump up Clan heat curves so that they are better than IS counterparts, bump up armor as well. Does not have to be by alot but should be more than it is now. In the Tukayyid 2 Event I witness IS mechs outranging clan mechs of the same weight class. That struck me as just wrong.

Please make Clan Mechs slightly better than IS mechs. It matches the lore and would make the Clanners very happy.

And a Preemptive response to those IS pilots that will comment that I am just whining about my beloved clan mechs or that clanners desire an unfair advantage.... I am allowed a voice on these forums, just as you are. Accept my comments or move on. I don't want to hear it.

[Carl Vickers]

CaradocTravena, on 06 December 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

After playing the Tukayyid 2 Event I have come to the conclusion that Clan mechs have been heavily Nerfed. Too heavily. Clans should have better tech than IS. It is in the lore. I understand the competitiveness issue as well as the balancing of the game but to put out castrated mechs is far worse I think. Bump up Clan heat curves so that they are better than IS counterparts, bump up armor as well. Does not have to be by alot but should be more than it is now. In the Tukayyid 2 Event I witness IS mechs outranging clan mechs of the same weight class. That struck me as just wrong.

Please make Clan Mechs slightly better than IS mechs. It matches the lore and would make the Clanners very happy.

And a Preemptive response to those IS pilots that will comment that I am just whining about my beloved clan mechs or that clanners desire an unfair advantage.... I am allowed a voice on these forums, just as you are. Accept my comments or move on. I don't want to hear it.

I am a clanner and while this might ring true for some peeps, not for me. If this game wants to continue and even expand there needs to be balance. No side wants to play when u get constantly smasked by the other team with no real way to win.

That being said the community as a whole needs to do a few things. I see a lot of IS pugs complaining about getting stomped by Clan 10-12 mans in CW. Join a unit, if u dont want to dont complain when u get stomped.

Weapons need more balancing, it needs to be done from the ground up. I like the basic way they are doing it, ie clans have better range, more heat, longer burn times ect. We need to keep things distinctive and separate else whats the point in having clans.

I understand it is not an easy thing to do someone is always going to be unahappy but there are sooo many different ways this can be done and PGI dont seem to apply simple logic to the most basic of things. On the other side of the coin the community has put in some brilliant ideas on how to balance and they dont seem to be noticed either.

[grayson marik]

Seriously, take the BV+ Pilot rating road.... it is already used by at least one League project and working for much better matches.

All this weight, price, weapon values, quirk mambo jumbo did not work out for the last 3 years for the simple fact, that a LL is not a SL and a DHS is not a SHS as a C-ERL is not a IS-LL etc. pp. A circle is a circle and not a square. So treat them as such.

Edited by grayson marik, 07 December 2015 - 12:09 AM.

[PraetorGix]

CaradocTravena, on 06 December 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

After playing the Tukayyid 2 Event I have come to the conclusion that Clan mechs have been heavily Nerfed. Too heavily. Clans should have better tech than IS. It is in the lore. I understand the competitiveness issue as well as the balancing of the game but to put out castrated mechs is far worse I think. Bump up Clan heat curves so that they are better than IS counterparts, bump up armor as well. Does not have to be by alot but should be more than it is now. In the Tukayyid 2 Event I witness IS mechs outranging clan mechs of the same weight class. That struck me as just wrong.

Please make Clan Mechs slightly better than IS mechs. It matches the lore and would make the Clanners very happy.

And a Preemptive response to those IS pilots that will comment that I am just whining about my beloved clan mechs or that clanners desire an unfair advantage.... I am allowed a voice on these forums, just as you are. Accept my comments or move on. I don't want to hear it.

I think clans got too nerfed finally. New skill trees and no movement quirks is the last drop for me. And before any spheroid starts yelling at me, tell me the answer to something that is popping up in my mind more and more lately: if clans are sooo very OP, why do people still use IS tech? We all agreed in the past that 10 vs 12 would be bad because nobody wants to pilot something they perceive as lesser. By that logic, the very fact that there are players piloting IS (even more IS population than clanner judging by Tukkayd 2) is proof that, despite your constant whining you don't really think clans are better.

[Digital_Angel]

Cmdr Hurrell, on 07 December 2015 - 02:26 AM, said:

I think clans got too nerfed finally. New skill trees and no movement quirks is the last drop for me. And before any spheroid starts yelling at me, tell me the answer to something that is popping up in my mind more and more lately: if clans are sooo very OP, why do people still use IS tech? We all agreed in the past that 10 vs 12 would be bad because nobody wants to pilot something they perceive as lesser. By that logic, the very fact that there are players piloting IS (even more IS population than clanner judging by Tukkayd 2) is proof that, despite your constant whining you don't really think clans are better.

Especially with newer players, because they are so much cheaper. Yes I realize that total cost once you upgrade heat sinks, Endo, engines, etc. to IS, the cost comes out about the same, but clan is much more expensive up front.

I'm far from a MWO expert as I've only been playing for 4 months or so. All my mechs were IS up until I earned the TBR-C(C) from the Halloween event. This was partially because most of the trial mechs until recently were IS and I was able to try more of them out, plus I could afford to purchase the mech (and the other variants needed for skill trees) faster even if I then had to spend C-Bills on the various upgrades as I could afford to (or take a really long time grinding if it was a 3rd variant I knew I had no intention of keeping anyway once I had the skills on it).

Before the re-balance clans definitely seemed to have an advantage, especially at range, over IS in any CW match I played no matter how good of a group I dropped with (even knowing part of it is that my piloting skill still has plenty of room to improve). In quick play I've played several clan mechs (did well with the EBJ trial and the Mad Dog trial mechs, plus own 3 TBRs now, and gave the Cheetah and Adder trials a try or two), and they all seemed like better mechs than some of their IS counter parts (although the Adder trial didn't fit my play style). After the re-balance, I will agree that the nerf might have gone overboard a little on clans, especially since clan mechs seem to have been hit hard than IS overall on the ECM nerf as well.

Based on the Tukayyid 2 Event, IS and clan seemed to be much closer to balanced than they were before based both on matches I was in and on the overall attacker wins% for the event. From my, admittedly limited, experience piloting clan mechs in quick play, clan mechs definitely took a BIG hit, possibly a little too much, especially when they changed so many things in the game at once instead of multiple smaller steps with time to evaluate how balance was affected more between those changes.

[Mad Dog Morgan]

LadyDanams, on 08 December 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

Before the re-balance clans definitely seemed to have an advantage, especially at range, over IS in any CW match I played no matter how good of a group I dropped with (even knowing part of it is that my piloting skill still has plenty of room to improve). In quick play I've played several clan mechs (did well with the EBJ trial and the Mad Dog trial mechs, plus own 3 TBRs now, and gave the Cheetah and Adder trials a try or two), and they all seemed like better mechs than some of their IS counter parts (although the Adder trial didn't fit my play style). After the re-balance, I will agree that the nerf might have gone overboard a little on clans, especially since clan mechs seem to have been hit hard than IS overall on the ECM nerf as well.

Based on the Tukayyid 2 Event, IS and clan seemed to be much closer to balanced than they were before based both on matches I was in and on the overall attacker wins% for the event. From my, admittedly limited, experience piloting clan mechs in quick play, clan mechs definitely took a BIG hit, possibly a little too much, especially when they changed so many things in the game at once instead of multiple smaller steps with time to evaluate how balance was affected more between those changes.

To clarify one thing: they were testing the changes over the course of a couple months in a PTS environment before putting it live.

[Digital_Angel]

Vaskadar, on 08 December 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

To clarify one thing: they were testing the changes over the course of a couple months in a PTS environment before putting it live.

I understand that. I kept an eye on how the PTS rounds were going to a certain point. I wasn't trying to say that the changes were not play tested, just that a lot of changes went into production at the same time, and in any environment that can cause headaches.

[TDN Dreadnaught]

I tried to read through most of this but it makes me irked so...it has been tough. I love 2 mechs to death. The QKD 5K, which thanks to nerfing basics for the sake of the steam community now drives like an 18wheeler; and the AWS 9M, it had some fun quirks that gave it some range and ability that a nich LPL player such as myself could have some great matches in (so long as I was the better pilot). Bare in mind that I owned both pre-quirk and have been playing this game for 3 years. This rebalancing within the chassis seems to be a joke because if ever there was a laser expert in the bunch of the AWS it would be the 9M...and it got brutally ganked... Right now the the 8T is so much the superior AWS laser build its kind of stupid, even with its low slung arm mounted laser points. As for the QKD. I mean...come on. At least with torso twisting and maneuverability that thing could take some hits and out pilot even timberwolf adversaries. I know this because it is my prefered clan deterent. Now...it's a slug. Its infuriating. I hate it. I thought the point of this game was that a QKD ought to be able to square off with a Dire wolf and have it's fair shake. I felt like I had that 2 weeks ago. RIght now, by destroying a heavy mech's ability to outmaneuver a mech that just need to point and kill seems DRASTICALLY counter productive. I keep hearing that we want to get away from alpha strike metas...And then do COMPLETELY counterintuitive adjustments to hurt mechs that already werent that great. Slow the torso twist on a Dire...who cares? 85+ damage alpha. Slow the torso twist on a QKD....mech becomes irrelevant...again...and again...and Im sick of it. Gonna play some Elder Scrolls

[Rattazustra]

Vaskadar, on 08 December 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

To clarify one thing: they were testing the changes over the course of a couple months in a PTS environment before putting it live.

That is correct. Unfortunately it is LITERALLY correct. They were testing the changes over the course of a couple months in a PTS environment. True. However, those tests were completely meaningless, because they did simply not get relevant numbers to conduct tests! Most of the times when I got onto the testserver, there SO FEW people on that matches were 2 vs 2 and 3 vs. 3!!!

For any meaningful testing to happen, they would have had to make an event where you play on the testserver but earn rewards to carry over to the main server. That would have brought both numbers and competitive thinking. Without true competitive thinking there is no sense in testing, because the test result is not a new meta. It is just some junk very few random people were pitting against each other.

Some mechs even have no test feedback at all and those that do often have very little.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

I daresay the IW and unfocused laser "ghost damage"/reduced range drove people from even bothering to try it. The blowback was just so harsh.

[Titianus]

[Hunter Watzas]

The clans were a little heavily nerfed and no longer have a special feel to them. I loved the idea of balancing the two sides and making them both a different "style" to play. Unfortunately with the last major balance patch that was ruined. In public que the difference between clans and IS is hardly noticeable but when you move into the CW environment it is pretty bad when people bring out the competitive builds. There are few IS quirk sets that are just too much and then there are certain clan mechs that are not obsolete from the heat issue.

Clans should on average have less but more powerful weapons, faster mobility and longer range but have small heat capacity. IS should have about the same number of weapons or slightly more, slower mobility and shorter range but have higher heat capacity. The two sides should be about the same resilience. However this generality can cause issues for IS long range support mechs (Jager, Rifleman, etc) and Clan Brawlers (Nova, Executioner, Gargoyle). Thus these mechs should be quirked to mitigate the generality and make them still be able to perform their roles. Meaning giving the clan brawlers the ability to stay in combat longer while holding their dps and giving IS support mechs the ability to engage at range with Clan. This still gives the clans the better performance at range since in a general drop they will have more range firepower while the IS will still have more brawling potential.

I think we all know some mechs on both sides that are still useless which needs to be addressed.

No side should be limited in their ability to perform some action (brawling, skirmish, support, scouting) so each must have the ability with certain mechs to perform that action. Also a mech that is designed for brawling shouldn't be as good as another designed for skirmish.

I hope that PGI brings back testing and provide an incentive for us participate in some fashion of the continue re balancing.

[DivineEvil]

Hunter Watzas, on 04 January 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

No side should be limited in their ability to perform some action (brawling, skirmish, support, scouting) so each must have the ability with certain mechs to perform that action. Also a mech that is designed for brawling shouldn't be as good as another designed for skirmish.

I hope that PGI brings back testing and provide an incentive for us participate in some fashion of the continue re balancing.

On that part, I can agree. What feels left from all the Public Testing procedures still, is the notion of some sort of idea behind the quirking. How much mechs are quirked, what quirks they get, and how strong those quirks, are all very important parts of the completed balance system.

So far there's only a seeming principle of total quirk magnitude, which itself is also flawed (Blackjacks quirk magnitude surpass Vindicators quirk magnitude, even though Vindicators are internally inferior to Blackjacks by far). Balancing between different mechs of the same weight class is only rudimentary at best (Dragons versus Quickdraws), and some variants are also apparently outstand from their peers (25% energy range on BLR-1C versus other variants with 10% energy range tops).

But most of all, the principles by which Quirks are given to different mechs or omni-pods is completely non-existent. There's no preset class system, which would resolve the roles between different mechs. In the unregulated pool of bonuses, mechs are still seen as combinations of specific quirks, not as war machines designed and built for prescribed purposes.

There should be a structure to the quirk distribution. Mechs designed for frontline combat and direct brawling, like Centurions, Dragons and Awesomes, all has to be quirked mainly for durability, with mobility, weapon and infotech secondary quirks attached for variant diversity. Same with slayers and fire-support mechs, like Hunchbacks, Riflemen and Marauders - weapon quirks with secondary bonuses. Same with flankers and hit-runners, like Enforcers, Quickdraws and Victors - mobility quirks with secondary bonuses. Same with scouts, artillery and command vehicles, like Trebuchets, Catapults and Black Knights - infotech quirks with secondary bonuses. Hero mechs with quirks distinct from their normal variants, bringing a new taste for an ordinary chassis.

Then there will be a distinction, what mech you need for a role from a specific tonnage tier. Then different mechs will have their own character. Then these mechs will be used for the purposes they were concieved by BT lore, not by some random, arbitrary standards. Same is true for Omnimech modular components - there's dozens of them without use, and ones which has quirks doesnt seem to introduce any customization options.

Concerning IS/Clan balance, there's still a problem of technological gap, that has to be crossed to allow for desirably fair quirk magnitude for Clan mechs. A whole year has passed, but I still stand firmly for double internal structure values inbred into all and every IS mech, as a compensation of inferior technology. Such drastic change would certainly allow to introduce respectable Omni-pod and IIC quirk values comparable or equal to ones placed into IS mechs on top of that general durability difference. Even if it would create a significant balance sway against Clan mechs, that would only mean, that many nerfs and penalties placed upon them can be reverted, one after another.

Only then there will be a viable baseline for mech balance and diversity, both for IS and Clans.

[grayson marik]

http://mwomercs.com/...actually-works/

[SilentScreamer]

grayson marik, on 15 January 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...actually-works/

Going to a "Build Value" system is a fair idea Grayson. In your original post in the thread you were using Community Warfare/Faction Play as your example, which is worth consideration. Building drop decks on performance rather than raw tonnage could help match equality. A meta timberwolf and stock timberwolf both take 75 tons, but have vastly different performance. However, PGI has always said CW/Faction play is "hard mode", but others have mentioned Russ tweeting about splitting matches between groups and solo players so if change is in the air why not consider adding a matchmaker? As long as there is sufficent player population to support it.

Later on in your post you mention applying it to the Quick Play matches. I think the Match Maker would self destruct if it had to deal with both player skill and mech build value at the same time. Not too long ago the MM was trying to build matches balancing ELO and 3/3/3/3 at the same time. I can't speak for all players but I will say the wait time was high and more than a few matches were bad. The PSR system is not perfect, but it is much faster than 3/3/3/3 with ELO and I think adding Build Value into match making would regress wait time and quality. See reasoning below:

In Match Making you must rate priorities. The 3/3/3/3 match maker would frequently "give up" on matching class/tonnage, as a result teams of equal skill were given severe tonnage differences resulting in really bad match making. Applying BV to Quick play would have the same result though priorities favoring either BV or PSR. EXs:
a) 2 groups of about equal BV but different PSR, you have inexperienced players matched against veterans because they went on Smurfy and copied a build.
B) 2 groups of equal PSR but a significant difference in BV. Same problem of mismatching under the old 3/3/3/3 above.
c) match maker refuses to compromise on PSR and BV, it takes 30 minutes to find a single Quick Play match.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 24 January 2016 - 09:02 AM.

[grayson marik]

SilentScreamer, on 24 January 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

Going to a "Build Value" system is a fair idea Grayson. In your original post in the thread you were using Community Warfare/Faction Play as your example, which is worth consideration. Building drop decks on performance rather than raw tonnage could help match equality. A meta timberwolf and stock timberwolf both take 75 tons, but have vastly different performance. However, PGI has always said CW/Faction play is "hard mode", but others have mentioned Russ tweeting about splitting matches between groups and solo players so if change is in the air why not consider adding a matchmaker? As long as there is sufficent player population to support it.

Later on in your post you mention applying it to the Quick Play matches. I think the Match Maker would self destruct if it had to deal with both player skill and mech build value at the same time. Not too long ago the MM was trying to build matches balancing ELO and 3/3/3/3 at the same time. I can't speak for all players but I will say the wait time was high and more than a few matches were bad. The PSR system is not perfect, but it is much faster than 3/3/3/3 with ELO and I think adding Build Value into match making would regress wait time and quality. See reasoning below:

In Match Making you must rate priorities. The 3/3/3/3 match maker would frequently "give up" on matching class/tonnage, as a result teams of equal skill were given severe tonnage differences resulting in really bad match making. Applying BV to Quick play would have the same result though priorities favoring either BV or PSR. EXs:
a) 2 groups of about equal BV but different PSR, you have inexperienced players matched against veterans because they went on Smurfy and copied a build.
2 groups of equal PSR but a significant difference in BV. Same problem of mismatching under the old 3/3/3/3 above.
c) match maker refuses to compromise on PSR and BV, it takes 30 minutes to find a single Quick Play match.

Well, I think MM would actually work faster with BV+PilotBV = Mech BV in quick matches.

It would simply need to build 2 groups of equal BV +- a margin, that can be widened every few seconds. So instead of working with pilot tiers and widening the gap just in tiers, you could do it at least as fast and more accurate with the proposed BV system.

Surely, we can argue back and forth on our asumptions... a test coding would be needed ^^

Edited by grayson marik, 18 February 2016 - 05:15 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

grayson marik, on 18 February 2016 - 05:11 AM, said:

Well, I think MM would actually work faster with BV+PilotBV = Mech BV in quick matches.

It would simply need to build 2 groups of equal BV +- a margin, that can be widened every few seconds. So instead of working with pilot tiers and widening the gap just in tiers, you could do it at least as fast and more accurate with the proposed BV system.

Surely, we can argue back and forth on our asumptions... a test coding would be needed ^^

What BV would get us is matches with similar mechs, or at least mechs of similar BV. The problem is going to come in what the stock BV of each chassis is while it's stripped, followed by the pilot BV (considering that we have no good system of measurement for that yet), as the two main hurdles for that system. 3x3x3x3 kinda ended the need for BV in regards to mechs. Leaving only pilot BV, which PSR is trying to do, but not succeeding that well at it.

I will say this though: I am not opposed to trying this system out, if they choose to test it.

[Vonbach]

CaradocTravena, on 06 December 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

After playing the Tukayyid 2 Event I have come to the conclusion that Clan mechs have been heavily Nerfed. Too heavily. Clans should have better tech than IS. It is in the lore. I understand the competitiveness issue as well as the balancing of the game but to put out castrated mechs is far worse I think. Bump up Clan heat curves so that they are better than IS counterparts, bump up armor as well. Does not have to be by alot but should be more than it is now. In the Tukayyid 2 Event I witness IS mechs outranging clan mechs of the same weight class. That struck me as just wrong.

Please make Clan Mechs slightly better than IS mechs. It matches the lore and would make the Clanners very happy.

And a Preemptive response to those IS pilots that will comment that I am just whining about my beloved clan mechs or that clanners desire an unfair advantage.... I am allowed a voice on these forums, just as you are. Accept my comments or move on. I don't want to hear it.

The problem is if Clan gets buffed to lore levels or even close why would anyone play IS?
Clan equipment is already better than IS across the board.

[Vermaxx]

Can you explain to me the reasoning behind taking the most controversial setting for Battletech, and not wanting the overpowered theme for clans?

Because I really don't get it. You could have made a relatively amazing game without the clan crap, because you wouldn't have seen the massive power ramp from XL engines and lostech everything.

Battletech 3025 was about as balanced as Battletech got. Everyone had access to the same crap, and it was all crap but no one knew there was anything better.

All along the roadmap, you've implemented lostech changes and then seen things you didn't like:

XL engines caused a massive ramp in power base and lowered time to kill for various reasons
Lots of people hated gauss
Boat builds became both common and preferable
The combo of DHS and XL engines totally borked your idea of gameplay and heat generation
Clan mechs were too powerful, highly overbalancing a game that already had issues
CW was heavily slanted toward clan both because of tech and the intended player base
CW rebalancing shifted the win ration far the other way - to IS - rather than toward 50/50

You can't have a game steeped in the lore of FASA, where the clans were a brutal overpowering enemy only beaten by underhanded trickery and MASSIVE ATTRITION, and then expect to balance those two factions even steven.

Vonbach, on 22 February 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

The problem is if Clan gets buffed to lore levels or even close why would anyone play IS?
Clan equipment is already better than IS across the board.

Because you wouldn't have even teams, or even lives, or you'd have some kind of serious penalty for being un-clan. (Oh sure, some ignored zelbregen. Most didn't, and most didn't START ignoring it until the war had already seen some diabolical IS bs.) Whereas I, in my Liao pride, could do any heinous thing I wanted and get no penalties for it.

[Digital_Angel]

Vonbach, on 22 February 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

The problem is if Clan gets buffed to lore levels or even close why would anyone play IS?
Clan equipment is already better than IS across the board.

Not really anymore. The better heat efficiency of IS goes a long way to balancing the scales currently, especially at closer ranges.