772 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

beerandasmoke, on 11 September 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

So what do we do in the current system? Possibly bumb people up running the unholy trinity a tier perhaps? Then again if a guys already tier1 what would he care. Maybe assign a value too him in the matchmaker where he has to carry harder if he runs a timber?

Treat Clan 'Mechs as a "heavier" weight than they actually are- and to the point of losing an effective "slot" if there's enough of a "Clantech" component in mixed matchmaking that can't be handled by bumping the 'Mech up a weight-notch.

So your ACH is taking up a medium slot, your Stormcrow a heavy slot, that Timber Wolf is an assault's worth of IS 'Mech and if you're running a pair of Clan assault 'Mechs, you're using 11 'Mechs total, not 12. And you adjust total dropdeck numbers for Clan CW- say, instead of 24 players, a Clan CW deck is 18-20 players.

[Chef Kerensky]

Alisyn Chaynes, on 11 September 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

The thing is most people don't understand is there is really no good way to balance Clan with IS in a game and not piss some ppl off. The easiest option would be to just wipe the IS out . Or run 8 on 12 matches with the clan being the 8.

How ever with that being said, mech warrior always has been a simulator, to many play this like its an FPS and they are about to get a rude awakening.

Mechwarrior has always been a sim. MWO has never been a sim.

[MischiefSC]

wanderer, on 11 September 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

Treat Clan 'Mechs as a "heavier" weight than they actually are- and to the point of losing an effective "slot" if there's enough of a "Clantech" component in mixed matchmaking that can't be handled by bumping the 'Mech up a weight-notch.

So your ACH is taking up a medium slot, your Stormcrow a heavy slot, that Timber Wolf is an assault's worth of IS 'Mech and if you're running a pair of Clan assault 'Mechs, you're using 11 'Mechs total, not 12. And you adjust total dropdeck numbers for Clan CW- say, instead of 24 players, a Clan CW deck is 18-20 players.

Good plan. You can also just use mind-control to make people not act like people.

Kills are more important to people than win/loss. Playing the guy who gets 5 kills/match but loses 60% of the time would be preferable to most people than a KDR of 0.5 but a 60% win rate.

We could just require players to play with an eye towards everyone else having fun instead of their own success, then you can just count on them to balance itself.

I have a whole list of ideas that ignore reality and human nature to work. Not very productive though.

[Brazo Izquierdo de Muerte]

Trust me it has always been a sim its just been slow to get there. It may play like FPS for now but I promise you that will end.

Edited by Alisyn Chaynes, 11 September 2015 - 07:14 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Chef Kerensky, on 11 September 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

Mechwarrior has always been a sim. MWO has never been a sim.

Mechwarrior was an RPG. Tabletop and computer. It was also all about PvE. The PvP was always broken as hell in MW4 poptart lands. The whole computer franchise has never had a good TT-translation that was a good PvP experience.

That's the problem; there's a lot of people here who heart want a PvE experience with other players being the 'E'.

[Richter Kerensky]

Alisyn Chaynes, on 11 September 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Trust me it has always been a sim its just been slow to get there. It may play like FPS for now but I promise you that will end.

I always play for fun and the ones who don't sicken me.

I have fun by winning.

[Hydrocarbon]

I'm glad I didn't buy any more IS mechs. Speaking of which, great timing on the HERO sale...

[MischiefSC]

I admit - I was going to buy some heros but decided I'll just wait on that.

[Yokaiko]

Sthtopokeon, on 11 September 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

Calm down srsly.
And read the initial post from Paul again.

The author is the problem.

[Richter Kerensky]

MischiefSC, on 11 September 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

I admit - I was going to buy some heros but decided I'll just wait on that.

Rest in peace noble Grid Iron, you were pretty cool.

[beerandasmoke]

wanderer, on 11 September 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

Treat Clan 'Mechs as a "heavier" weight than they actually are- and to the point of losing an effective "slot" if there's enough of a "Clantech" component in mixed matchmaking that can't be handled by bumping the 'Mech up a weight-notch.

So your ACH is taking up a medium slot, your Stormcrow a heavy slot, that Timber Wolf is an assault's worth of IS 'Mech and if you're running a pair of Clan assault 'Mechs, you're using 11 'Mechs total, not 12. And you adjust total dropdeck numbers for Clan CW- say, instead of 24 players, a Clan CW deck is 18-20 players.

I would say that you would probably have to take into account pilot skill as well as what hes running. Which would mean you assign a value to each weapon he has equipped. A full meta build would have a higher value than a mixed build. Lets say a 1xLPL 5xERML stormcrow would have higher value than a 5xERML stormcrow. Higher alpha would mean bigger handicap when it comes to matchmaker. That would be one way to lower TTK.

[wanderer]

MischiefSC, on 11 September 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

None of which translates to FPS PvP MOBA sort of environment. Plus that only worked with pre-measured drop-decks between people who knew each other and were playing for fun. It never worked in tournaments. You couldn't/wouldn't skew matches when playing with your friends or they wouldn't play with you. You got balanced matches if everyone involved agreed on all the rules and you trusted the other people were playing for fun with you. Never worked in tournaments and it would never, ever work in this sort of environment.

Um...yes. Actually, it would. Tournaments, by their nature have you agreeing on all the rules. MWO sorta requires it, seeing as we're all playing in the same commonly coded environment here. The amount of cheese capacity MWO has would look like crumbs compared to the original moon-sized chunk of original Clantech, and modern tournament level rules bring that down to the point where yes, you can set up reasonable scenarios between Clan and IS forces- generally with BV resulting in a numerically inferior but technologically superior force. I've played on both sides of that, and it works.

Quote

You're never, ever going to get the significant majority of players to want to play the redshirt scrubs. If you're going to match 12v10 or 12v8 then you need 20-40% more players queuing up for IS than Clans. Will never happen. Second there would be no way to get skill level parity, everyone would be working their way into Clan mechs so they could be the OP side crushing scrubs and not the scrubs being crushed.

You underestimate the snark side of the Force, young grognard. There's hordes of Clan-hating players that would flock to the idea of zerging under Clan units with their superior "Inner Sphere numbers and teamwork".

Quote

You'd need 70% of players at any given time being the inferior IS tech being stomped (even if they manage to win in the end with greater losses). That or Clan players only get to take lights and mediums, since if you're keeping 12v12 but balancing by 'value' (related to tonnage) all IS players need to take heavies/assaults and Clans all lights/mediums.

The idea is terrible for this sort of environment. It was terrible for BT PvP and catered to the worst sort of PvE mentality ('I'm teh uber heroz, only hordes of enemies bring me down!') and is even worse for this sort of environment.

Hint: Who cares if your Clan force has a higher kill count if you decide to fight like a rat in a trap and the end score is IS: Alive and Clan: Dead? I don't -want- the Clanners to have numerical parity. I want them to constantly worry about getting 2v1'd (or worse if their team is stupid) and every Clan loss hurts more because it chews a bigger percentage out of the total "lifebar" for them. Even in MWO, pros know K/D doesn't matter other than as a sign of personal efficiency- W/L does. And scrubs are scrubs. The same people who care about their K/D ratio are the same folks that are in the underhive, will stay in the underhive, and get farmed in CW. Like they always have and always will.

Maybe it's because I'm a Capellan player. We're used to taking wins collectively, rather than kissing the backside of the guy with the highest kill numbers who lost the planet anyway.

Edited by wanderer, 11 September 2015 - 07:22 PM.

[Chef Kerensky]

Alisyn Chaynes, on 11 September 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Trust me it has always been a sim its just been slow to get there. It may play like FPS for now but I promise you that will end.

It won't.

MWO will become a sim when a single player campaign is developed. So uh... [glances at watch with the minute and hour hands pointing at the word "never"]

[Jaeger Gonzo]

MischiefSC, on 11 September 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

In this thread we already see why in actual tabletop BT everyone really hated the Clan diehards. Clans were balanced for PvE, not PvP. Nobody ever took IS vs Clan seriously on TT for PvP. It was never balanced, ever. Use the magical Google and look at forums from 7-12 years ago when Battletech Tournaments were still a thing. It was always Clan players trying to justify having stupidly OP and unbalanced gear while playing against people to run suicide redshirts against them so they could be guaranteed a win and pretend it was them being good and not just utterly broken.

IS vs Clans worked as PvE. The GM would run the opposite side and use magic plot armor and artificial balancing to keep games fun and challenging. The Lore in no way, shape or form will ever work in that regard for a FPS PvP game. It's like saying you want a game where one group of players is playing members of the pre-Clone Wars Jedi Council and the other team is all supposed to play scrub tier battle-droids. 'No, that's fair and balanced, there's so many of you!' Everyone will want to play the Jedi and you'll never get the huge number of players willing to repeatedly play the battledroids being slaughtered in the hopes of scoring a lucky shot.

That's never going to happen, should never happen and fortunately PGI has said it will never happen, because it's an idea that is not just bad but is embarrassing to see people suggest.

While this true that some particular Clan mechs can be annoying and BVs is not perfect, it doing job, look at the megameks forums where BT tested far more and excessive then ever was in RL TT. I won hundreds game ISvClans.

I actually know game, with jedis and droids.
Is one of the best MP games around. It is asymmetrical balanced. One Jedi is worth like 3 or 4 droids. And shooting classes there never had problems with populations.
You can even check it out. MBII.
So that is really a myth, that people would not play weaker, but with power full in the team class, giving hard time OP individuals.

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

glad my spiders are getting buffed, already do over a hundred damage every match with them

[Yokaiko]

MechaNagato, on 11 September 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

glad my spiders are getting buffed, already do over a hundred damage every match with them

Blizzard though, Blizzard/Activision will never see another penny from me.

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

maybe people will actually hold locks now

[Yokaiko]

Not holding my breath.

[MischiefSC]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 11 September 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

While this true that some particular Clan mechs can be annoying and BVs is not perfect, it doing job, look at the megameks forums where BT tested far more and excessive then ever was in RL TT. I won hundreds game ISvClans.

I actually know game, with jedis and droids.
Is one of the best MP games around. It is asymmetrical balanced. One Jedi is worth like 3 or 4 droids. And shooting classes there never had problems with populations.
You can even check it out. MBII.
So that is really a myth, that people would not play weaker, but with power full in the team class, giving hard time OP individuals.

Like 100 people play Movie Battles on a good night. It's a small community and plays like a small community. That's like comparing bacon and oranges. Are you saying that if the only game mode it had was Jedi vs Droids that it would still fill up all the time? Because that's what we're discussing here. One side is always Jedi, one side always Droids.

Megameks, again, doesn't play like a FPS and was better balanced than the actual TT game, allows almost no customization and is non-persistent. Hit/miss is dice-roll driven and is closer in balance to MW:O than tabletop was. Plus, again, each player is several mechs. You don't need 1 player for each mech like MW:O does so 1 player with 12 mechs vs 1 player with 8 mechs isn't the same as telling 12 players they're going to get a 0.8 KDR and 8 players they get a 1.5 KDR baseline and expecting 70% of people to want the lower KDR role.

All of this is moot, given that PGI, for whatever other questionable balance choices they have made have already nixed this terrible idea.

MechaNagato, on 11 September 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

maybe people will actually hold locks now

Hell no. The new system teaches you to play without locks at all; why bother, you're brawling with people before you have the chance. I've seen less locks, not more.

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

my lrm panther will be raining down on the enemy mechs well before they get into brawl range