772 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Lily from animove, on 11 September 2015 - 11:08 PM, said:

Poeple need to entirely get rid of the idea clan vs IS, balance is a chassis vs chassis thing. But given this what you say, if some IS mech don't get significant firepowerbuffs they will never be working in competition. Not even with instant targeting info will this ever close any gap. In th end Firepower is the priority value of a mech, then mobility then survival, then info.
What I miss is coolant. because mechs like the NVA have by hardpoints too much firepower avalable to handle for the coolant. it would therefore good to take coolant into a variable as well. Especially some light mechs which run too hot due to 8+2 DHS could get some coolant buffs. This indirectly buffs firepower by allowing them to fire longer.

And by, this yes, you can't control how people play, but you can analyse how people play, and why. Things that matter in MWO, are very clear. Info warfare isn't much. I eman i jut take the SCR as example and try to think about how the system they intent wants to make other medium mechs being buffed to be a compettiive choice.


@PAUL, also don't rescale the NVA, seriously it looks to sawesome to be broken by rescaling.

100% exactly. So I agree not all mechs are going to be equal, however you can use quirks to get stuff into a reasonable range. Top meta will always be top meta but the point is to make it a narrow gap, not a broad one.

The sensor stuff is pointless in context of balancing. Sure, I like it for overall game experience - I prefer it. Mark 1 Eyeballs being optimal sensor equipment again is awesome.

However, gank is better than tank. The structure buffs add like 1 alpha strike to defensive power on even the most heavily buffed mechs. The sensor stuff isn't part of the balance equation; having a 1, 2 or even 3 second 'faster' paperdoll or targeting doesn't change how combat will play out. At some point the game comes down to shooting for win/loss. Scouting is useful for like 2 or 3 minutes, then you don't need scouts. You need fighting and you need fighters who will win.

[IraqiWalker]

KruczekIIV, on 11 September 2015 - 11:19 PM, said:

Asking out of curiosity. If you earn some c-bills at Public Test server, do the amount of money you gain get transferred to your normal, non-public-test account or are those 2 accounts separate?

Nothing that happens on the PTS will impact your real account.

[Kamikaze Viking]

PTS Re-Blanace Notes - 12 Sept 2015

"First impressions" without reading other peoples stuff yet.

All IS mechs have had their weapon quirks removed.
and all get some form of positive Target info gathering Module effects applied as standard
lots of internal structure quirks. found some negative target ones on things like the STK-5M LRM boat, but longer hold lock times, Forcing it into that LRM back line role and relying on other peoples locks.

Clan mechs
Some still have positive weapon quirks, but mostly also gone.
but other than that also Target info gathering Module effects applied in the positive but mostly negative.


So as a team who A) calls targets, REMEMBERS things. This Info Gathering will affect us a very small amount. And as we have been training to call targets under ECM without info this will just make us doubledown our efforts. But at the same time, New, Solo & Small group Players will now be hammerred even harder by organised teams.


As and InnerSphere loyalist unit playing NBT and other leagues we now cannot compete with the weapons of the clans. As everything has been reset back to BEFORE all the weapon balancing that gave us a pretty good game.

Clan lights - useless for scouting with those target quirks.. 2nd look some are buffed wildly and some are nerfed hard seemingly based on a pre-concieved Scout vs Brawler role. Why not let the pilot choose how to use their mech?


Making IS tankier seems to have been your thing. BUT without the weapon Quirks esp range quirks. IS mechs will never be able to close range and that extra damage will get stripped of in the trading phases. and since your have removed any brawling related quirks for close range weapons, even IF they outposition and get close. They will still be out DPS'd by even clan mid/long range setups like stacked ERLL or Gauss Vomit.

Its seems to have also had the effect removing the individual flavour of mechs like the HBK-4G with its feared AC20 or the Trebuchet's missiles. Making them all extremely Mediocre again. I suspect there will be a massive cry out from InnerSphere loyalists about Clanners being OP again, threatening to leave the game etc.


TL;DR - you have just UNDONE all the previous Balance work on a massive gamble that fails to account for tactics and play style. only looking at numbers on a sheet and DPS vs Armour. the Value of these info quirks I think is massively overestimated. As a clanner without info my team cares not and we'll still shoot legs and look for smoking components. As an IS team All the extra info in the world will not help us against superior range and damage that comes with resetting the weapons back to stock.
Mech usage will not be every chassis is viable, we will still never see an Orion. It will be ALL clanners and mostly back to TBR, EBJ, HBR, SCR, DWF, ACH or Victims who choose other mechs.

-------------------------------
Now Write more after Playing for a while... If i can even get a match in the PTS.

[Navid A1]

FupDup, on 11 September 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

Mist Lynx nerfs confirmed:

For real?
Well.... there goes my favourite mech.

The lynx was doing ok... looks like PGI thinks it was OP!



Meanwhile:

FupDup, on 11 September 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

The poor, underprivileged and underpowered Timber Wolf has been buffed! Thank Kerensky they're helping the sub-par mechs!

Edited by Navid A1, 12 September 2015 - 12:02 AM.

[Redbackz]

Good luck with the re-balancing.... again.

All I need now is something to actually entice me into logging in to use my pre purchased mechs that are gathering dust and rusting.

I still have hope MWO will become the game we all want. Keep chipping away guys.

[kka]

PGI, sincerely wishing good luck in your efforts!

[Chagatay]

Everyone bashes the info mechs......until they have the "ignores ECM rule"

Also info clan mechs will be getting enhanced imaging for those pesky fog shots that
require pinpoint component precision:



You can even see where those Goose waffle people are shooting from as their brightly colored
polygon shots stream by.

Edited by Chagatay, 12 September 2015 - 01:15 AM.

[Rocketman12]

I have played this game almost since its inception and stayed with it through many ups and downs. I've invested a LOT of time and money in this game. I have grown increasingly concerned in recent months about the direction the game is taking overall and the poor rationale and consider of rammifications of many changes. I feel these proposed "balancing" changes hugely disrespects the time and money I've invested in buying chasis and optimizing them for specific uses. I don't believe these changes will be remotely positive and the cynic in me wants to say these changes are about generating churn and taking money out of the economy. I am in one of the top competitive units in the game. I've spoken with dozens of other members of my unit, many of whom have a much more in depth understanding of game dynamics than I and not a single one of them had a positive thing to say about the proposed changes. I've talked to members of other competitive units as well (This includes members of EMP, KCOM, 228, to name a few). This isn't a comp player versus new player issue. This is about satisfying the people that ultimately buy all those mech packs, cockpit items and camo packs. You know, the things that currently pay PGI's salaries. If these changes go into place, I will be leaving MWO. Period. End of Story. End of paycheck.

[Nik Kerensky]

Please DO NOT remove firepower quirks!! We will lose a huge element on uniqueness amongst mechs!

[Razor2323]

Tennex, on 11 September 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

From what is posted above seems to be under the assumption that all 4 components that you guys are looking at (firepower, movement, protection, infotech) are of equal contribution to balance. But with information warfare as it is now, it doesn't seem like that particular part of the rhombus is as robust as it should be. Therefore buffing/nerfing the information ability of a mech in this "Mechwarrior Value" system may have very limited impact.

For example, as Information warfare works in game now, i dont personally see any reason to take a mech with its rhombus leading towards Information Warfare over one with high firepower. (Why take a mech that can acquire targets 50% faster over one that has 5% more damage to Medium Lasers?)

Heres a suggestion from a previous thread that got 120+ upvotes. It can potentially bring a lot of depth to information warfare I hope you guys will consider it, at least further down the line:

http://mwomercs.com/...49#entry4564949





Tried it out, and honestly the Information Warfare system you guys are trying which resolves around target gathering time, and target relay time which differs between chassis makes things needlessly complicated while having almost unmeasurable gameplay impact.

Its like a 1million dollar machine designed only to run in place.



I think if the Information Warfare system was more robust, you guys would have more to work with. But right now all its doing is making things complicated and not really contributing much in the end.

Long time lurker, second time poster,

I hope to hell this gets implemented and also respect the complexity of the design that would be required for it.

My only idea would be a per unique mech to allow a skill tree for it / mastery bonus, role warfare style. Think along the lines of a predetermined metrics with a choice of one of four.

e.g. Player gets to master level of chassis,for each mech the player gets to select a boost pack( think non-removeable or exchangeable module set) this would require 8 different sets using the above diagram, e.g Player can choose firepower and movement, but will lose protection and info, Player chooses Firepower and protection, loses info and movement.
Further to the player choice they could set the buffs and nerf priority, to first choice gets (sustitute own numbers) 5% second 2.5%, first nerf gets -2.5% second gets -5%.
This allows the players, even if ultra competitive to select the way the play and setup their mechs, sure, some may choose the Fire/movement boost but if they come against a protection and firepower, whose to say who'd win.



TL:DR,
i like Tennex's reposted idea

submit my own idea that works with Pauls.

Either way , a simple solution will always come down to a paper/scissors/rock Magic the Gathering Players will know this.

To introduce the Logic and Spock will be a lot harder, getting an algorithm would be easier and quicker, but i fear as well that it may lead to a similar outcome as the quirks.

Thanks for reading.

[KrazedOmega]

CapperDeluxe, on 11 September 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

But that is exactly why they must take away those feats, it ends up pushing those mechs to only using those weapons they are quirked for. It means if you don't take that Gauss on that GridIron, or SRM on that Huggin you are doing it wrong. That is not acceptable in a game that is all about customization.

So instead they won't get used at all. Those Gauss quirks on the GI are the only reason I (and probably many others) bothered buying the mech. Now with the current quirks on the PTS there's really no reason to take the GI over the 4G other than the Hero mech bonus. The 4G has better mobility and the GI has better armor and structure but lower mobility. The quirks may almost cancel each other out with regards to survivability but that does not make the GI worth the MC price.

I'd get a refund on my GI if I could.

Chef Kerensky, on 11 September 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

Ha ha ha.

Ha Ha Ha.

It's like Paul doesn't even play this game. First the economy changes, now this.

[IraqiWalker]

Navid A1, on 11 September 2015 - 11:53 PM, said:

For real?
Well.... there goes my favourite mech.

The lynx was doing ok... looks like PGI thinks it was OP!

It really helps if you actually go and check. That picture is very wrong. That's the mist lynx with all it's pods removed. When you put the pods in, you'll see that it has a very different set of quirks.

Rocketman12, on 12 September 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

I have played this game almost since its inception and stayed with it through many ups and downs. I've invested a LOT of time and money in this game. I have grown increasingly concerned in recent months about the direction the game is taking overall and the poor rationale and consider of rammifications of many changes. I feel these proposed "balancing" changes hugely disrespects the time and money I've invested in buying chasis and optimizing them for specific uses. I don't believe these changes will be remotely positive and the cynic in me wants to say these changes are about generating churn and taking money out of the economy. I am in one of the top competitive units in the game. I've spoken with dozens of other members of my unit, many of whom have a much more in depth understanding of game dynamics than I and not a single one of them had a positive thing to say about the proposed changes. I've talked to members of other competitive units as well (This includes members of EMP, KCOM, 228, to name a few). This isn't a comp player versus new player issue. This is about satisfying the people that ultimately buy all those mech packs, cockpit items and camo packs. You know, the things that currently pay PGI's salaries. If these changes go into place, I will be leaving MWO. Period. End of Story. End of paycheck.

Do you understand the meaning of the words "first draft"? Because that's what this is. NONE of these quirks in the PTS are final, in any way shape or form. Hell, so far it looks like this is just the first phase of a much longer program.

Razor2323, on 12 September 2015 - 12:55 AM, said:

Either way , a simple solution will always come down to a paper/scissors/rock Magic the Gathering Players will know this.

and then Arc bound Ravager pops up.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 12 September 2015 - 01:07 AM.

[Asatur]

Reactor online, quirks online, nerfs online...
Welcome to perpetual Rebalance Warrior Online!

[wanderer]

KrazedOmega, on 12 September 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

It's like Paul doesn't even play this game. First the economy changes, now this.

He's Tier 4/edge of the bottom of T3. He may play the game, but knowing more than the basics seems to escape his personal experience.

[Revorn]

@ Russ

For the Infogathering Thing, You my consider to connect this, with the Rendering of the Mechs in some Way. If your Programming can handle it or allowing it. You will see, it suddenly will make much more Sense and impact then atm. Imho.

[Nehkrosis]

reposting this here;
Right, so I we think we know the "general" idea PGI are going for. But, tbh, i think it obvs need more love. I feel like if they wanted more Role Warfare, a happy combo of old and new quirks might do the trick. An Example; you have certain Variants of certain Chassis earmarked for certain roles, a HBK 4SP is a brawler, and so, could be tanky, and have some Weapon Quirks, Whereas the 4J, being a LRM support Mech, should Sensor- and Weapon Quirks, whilst forgoing Tankyness, and Agility. Another Example is the RVN 3L, which is definitely an Info-Warfare mech, and thusly should have a mix of Sensor, and Agility based quirks, making an excellent scout. likewise, the RVN 4x, and 2X, should have Agility and Weapons, making them excellent for Hit-and Run, Striker based Roles. The same applies to the Atlas DDC, which could forgo Agility (being an Assault) for Sensors, and Weapon buffs. Then you could have the RS/K/D/S variants model for the different roles, making them tankier than other variants of Atlas, and giving them different Weapon Quirks, or even minor Agility buffs.

[Ace Selin]

IS mechs are dead, Clan mechs rule and high pinpoint damage will still rule from this change.

[Peiper]

Regarding my statement and IraqiWalker's reaction: OP HERE
Quirks should simply make crappy mechs playable, not make them equal.

Mech Value should replace tonnage in matchmaking and especially CW.

IraqiWalker, on 11 September 2015 - 10:43 PM, said:

No quirks should actually make them equal.
You seem to forget something VERY important about BV matching. We had ASYMMETRICAL teams in TT. So BV worked because your OP mech allows me to field 2 or 3 mechs against it.

How are you going to do that in a 12 v 12 game, where quirks make bad mechs "usable" instead of "on equal footing"?

Sigh....

Is mech value that much different to calculate than tonnage? It is easy to calculate for community warfare, because there's no matchmaking: here's an example.

1. Every mech has a value of 200 - 400. Every drop deck is set at 800-1200. So, you could take two 400 value mechs and 2 crappy mechs, or you could take 4 average mechs. Is that really different from what we have now? This could also be used to de-segregate clan and inner sphere mechs for future factions like the Rasalhague Dominion and Nova Cat infested Draconis Combine - as well as allow for multi-tech groups like the Kell Hounds and Wolfs Dragoons.

2. In the case of lone wolf public matches, you're looking at a similar situation, but you add a value for the player's tier. So, make each tier worth 20 points. So, a top tier timberwolf would be worth 500 points, or the lowest tier commando would be 220 points. If you have 24 lone wolves it becomes easy to sort out who drops where. (You could do a two-part segregation if you have a big enough pool of players too. First, tier determines which bucket(s) you're eligible for, then mech value determines which team in that bucket you drop with. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT than what we have now, only tonnage determines a mechs value rather than the value of the mech itself.

3. The case of team queued public matches becomes muddier. Teams will have a totaled team mech value + pilot skill rating. Match them up with other teams so that to total ratings for both sides are roughly similar. Isn't that kind of what we do now?

RE: crappy mechs in public queues:

Now, if you want to encourage people to play crappy mechs in the public queues, simply adjust rewards accordingly. If you pilot a 400 rated Timber Wolf you get CBills at a .50 rate. If you pilot a 200 rated Commando, you get paid at a 1.5 rate. If you pilot a 300 rated Dragon, you'd get paid at a 1.0 rate. So, the Commando pilot would make 150% of their total C-bills at the end of the match, and the Timber Wolf pilot would get 50% of the normal total. The dead-center average mech - calling it a Dragon for now, debate all you want - would make 100% standard C-Bill reward rates. This is all before premium and hero mech bonuses, of course.

IraqiWalker, you're thinking IN the box. The box is not your friend, get outside!

[Igor Kozyrev]

current delay time to spot the ratget withing radar range are obnoctoius for some mechs. Instead of that why don't you just differ radar ranges for different mechs? Is it a scout? make it's radar really long! Brawler? Half the distance.

[Naryck]

OK, Paul Inouye, I dare you! I double dare you duel me on a "maxed out information warfare and non-weapon-quircked" DRG-1N vs my maxed out ballistic-quircked 1N.
so, you can see me and read my mech's status from 1 km? but will it help you?
you can take into battle even one more 1N with the dev who invented this "information warfare". I think i have a chance to destroy both of your mechs with one quircked 1N

for now dragons have at least one model which can resist clans' 60-70 ton mechs (thor is really bad sniper with it's low mounted energy hardpoints) and sometimes even timbers... but ebonjags are a big question too, they are hard as nails.

devs still not understand that sensors are not equal to weapons? who cares if you see me in 500 m or 1500 m if in a firefight i destroy 2 of your "information" mechs?

Edited by Naryck, 12 September 2015 - 02:26 AM.