772 replies to this topic

[Krivvan]

Bigbacon, on 11 September 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

Going to be interssting although all the test users will figure out a new meta and everyone will follow suite.

The PTS meta is the same as the live server meta, just without the IS mechs.

[Gut]

Krivvan, on 12 September 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

The PTS meta is the same as the live server meta, just without the IS mechs.

Which is why I'm not even bothering to play it... it plays the exact same way, which means they didn't really change anything important that I need to learn.

[Surn]

I played around in the open test.

This game is on the verge of rendering IS mechs to be little more than canon fodder worthy only to be driven by AI bots and blown up en mass. With inner sphere being nerfed this much, there is no point to this game. Best case, everyone plays clan from here out... Boring!

...

Often time design/ aesthetic changes force bad architecture or 3rd party solutions that are not even fully documented, let alone fully understood.

This is where I think PGI is. They want to make a change in the game to appeal to a mass market of people who have no idea what BattleTech is. They didn't create the Crysis Engine and do not fully understand it. The core of the game is just a tool used to accelerate development and the focus of the company is on graphics. Why? because that is something they understand and control.

My suggestion:
It is implausible to change the company core competency. Focus on more and better maps, implementing CW and delivering on core promises to the player base. MechWarrior is a defined entity with expectations, so stop trying to be overly creative with that element of the product. Doing so is "Brand dilution."

If the current path is taken, the only way to not alienate the core base is to make the IS mechs as crappy as you are making them, but make the rewards for driving them outrageously lavish. Not just c-bills, but website based player spotlights and a Inner Sphere news feed with propaganda designed to keep up the spirits of IS populations. IS Wins have to become notable and historic....and rewarding.

http://www.mechreg.o...urnWantsYou.htm

Edited by MechregSurn, 12 September 2015 - 05:54 PM.

[Gut]

MechregSurn, on 12 September 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

I played around in the open test. With inner sphere being nerfed this much, there is no point to this game. Best case, everyone plays clan from here out... Boring

People keep bringing this up and I don't know why. They can change a few numbers around to fix this.

The thing they can't fix without actually coding it is the way the game actually plays.

Let's get them to do some actual coding.

[AeusDeif]

a few quick points which may have already been stated:

1. PLEASE do not make infowar variants without giving in game incentive to scouting. If scouting makes no money for the scout, no one will play it because you built this game around cbill grinding. Actually that is already the case... if you only incentivize attrition, every match will be skirmish with extra toppings. Which means mostly attack/defense spec mechs will be used.

2. Infowar needs more features, as someone pointed out early with the seismic-style radar idea. Great idea. More possibilities for infowar balancing: masc-style short use ECM. ECM buffs, tag buffs, narc buffs. Buffs for uav's. Mobile uavs (circling, spiraling, or straight forward). more air/arty strike options such as smokescreen, napalm (sets mech on fire, flamer effect). ability to capture things via 'hacking', such as turrets, sensors, artillery, salvage warehouses.

3. Geometry needs to be taken into account for defense -- the total surface area and arm-to-torso coverage ratio. Also leg ratio. This will probably be simpler if there is a soft standard surface area for each weight. Spreading armor over bigger surface area = thinner armor.

4. If a mech has a history of underperforming, don't be afraid to keep some weapon quirks! 2AC2/4ML blackjack is actually fun and never became meta. Please do NOT nerf mechs that aren't OP.

5. Infowar also needs large maps and non-standard dropzone/objective to be important. Consider having a set of predefined dropzones and a set of predefined objective locations which alternate randomly and must be discovered. The algorithm for this should prevent unfair scenarios like putting 3 enemy lances very close to an isolated friendly lance or friendly objective. Perhaps you can't see friendlies, enemies, or objectives in map screen until someone in your lance has spotted them.

[K1ttykat]

If you say you're going to give players a "top to bottom" rebalance and come out with quirk changes, it should be no surprise that they're unhappy.

These quirk changes are not necessarily a bad direction to go, though they could use some refinements. The big issue is that it doesn't actually solve the imbalance between clan and IS or even between weapons of a tech base. My ebonjag doesn't care how much infotech or agility the other mech has, within 400m its going to deal a 68dmg alpha strike with no ghost heat and no need to target.

There are serious issues with weapon/equipment stats and mechanics that cause a lot of the gameplay issues.

For example the erML is able to deal 42 damage without ghost heat and has only 45m less range than the IS LL, that means an IS player needs a 5t weapon to trade with a clan player's 1t weapon and to make matters worse, the IS player can only use 3 for a total alpha of just 27.
Then there's thes the issue with how 2 slot clan heatsinks allow clans to mount huge numbers of heatsinks which largely negates the disadvantage if their high heat weapons.
Or what about how bigger engines give you more slots (by allowing you to mount DHS to the engine), more speed, and more agility (torso twist etc), which puts mechs at a disadvantage (like the awesome) if they are stuck with low rated engines.
Then there are weapons like the ac2, flamer, mg, lbx, standard clan ac, that sit sonewhere between useless and undesirable

Addressing these kinds of issues will actually affect the balance of the game, more than any amount of "infotech". If these kinds of issues are actually being worked on then for gods sake just say so and we can all calm down.

Edited by K1ttykat, 12 September 2015 - 06:42 PM.

[Sazabi Steppenwulfe]

the current time frame is around 3053ish so remind me again why Clan mechs needed quirks (positive or negative) in the first place? you guys want a more "balance" state between IS and Clan machines then advance the time line to the Jihad era. too much tweaking to satisfy E-Sporters and newbs to the Battletech universe is starting to take it's toll.


P.S.: WH40K Eternal Crusade beta starts this October and while it probably won't kill this game, it WILL be a serious competitor for time and monies spent. start getting this stuff right.

[Kassatsu]

"Information Warfare" is still a joke. Trying to factor in things like sensor range/speed compared to mobility, armor and firepower? Boy, that won't make (or keep) any useless chassis/variants!

The entire sensor system (and by extension of that, ECM) needs a complete overhaul for "infotech" to be a viable balancing factor for ANY mech. Might as well just leave them all flat across the board, or change them based entirely on weight class, or even total weight for that matter - I mean why not give the Locust a 1200m sensor range by default? That's almost a reason to use one... On like two maps. Scale it down as the weight increases to say 600-800 for 100 ton assault mechs and there you go. I'm not sure what to think of the fact that would be a better IW system than what we have now.

[kka]

PGI, if the main point of PTS now is to balance variants with each other, could you restrict PTS to IS mechs?

Then later clan, and finally IS and clan.

[BearFlag]

I think the concern here is that "IW" will be factored with high potency. Looks like the consensus (and I agree) is that it should not be. Very small value in the overall scheme.

I hope that "firepower" in the OP is not the same as firepower in the mechlab which is just a simple summation of weapons' max damage. This summation would have a Kintaro 18 with two ML's and five SRM6's more powerful than the average Victor.

Numerous aspects should be factored into a "firepower" rating.
Damage
Range
Duration
Pilot correctable during firing (think ERL)
Hardpoint location
Spread
Velocity
Guidance
Also maybe:
ammo dependency
weight

A reasonable calculation can be arrived at for weapon effectiveness using these parameters, but how do you apply that to an empty chassis? Only the types and locations of hardpoints are known.

If the idea of this is to level IS and Clan mechs, I vehemently disagree. I'm a long time IS player, but still believe clan mechs and clan pilots should be powerful, should be feared. The very character of the IS v Clan game is washed out by levelling. Leave the clans strong! In open play, the MM can smooth out the disparity. In CW the 12v10 approach (and other calcs) should be used. I'm not saying the clan should have super-mechs. A mediocre TW pilot should be defeatable by a competent IS pilot driving ANY weight class. But since the game doesn't have different races and species, the Clan/IS difference should be pronounced.

I think a better way to handle IS/Clan difference is to make the Clans a slightly more exclusive club. It should be for players willing to spend real money or veterans willing to shell out tons of Cbills. Remove all clan trial mechs. Let a new player's first view and experience of a Crow be terrifying. Preserve the mystery and power of the Clans. Make the adjustments elsewhere. Other methods of segregation could be considered (but would prob be unpopular).

Quirking for Character:
As the avalanche of mech types proceeds the need to distinguish them is becoming acute. I agree that they need some character. In addition to general chassis quirks you could also try integral modules and integral weapons (very small ones). And there are also special inclusions that involve programming effort. The names of some mechs lend themselves to 'character.'

Perhaps the QuickDraw has crazy fast torso and/or convergence. (It's a quick draw!)
Perhaps the Arctic Cheetah has explosive aceleration. (It's a cheetah!)
Perhaps the Shadow Hawk is more difficult to lock.
Perhaps the Summoner has an integral Air Strike module (which must still be supplied though)
Perhaps the Firestarter has an integral Flamer
Perhaps the Dragon has two! (It's a Dragon!)
Perhaps the wolf pack shares info better (Dire, Timber)
Perhaps some non-JJ lights have integral module Shock Absorbance
Perhaps the Highlander has an armored kilt. oh nevermind.

More complicated, but I like the idea, is abilities/items limited to certain mechs. This would require programming. For example, for some mechs with articulated arms but no hardpoints, a hardpoint for a Roman-style shield would be cool (Did someone say Centurion? How appropriate.). It might weigh 1-3 or 2-4 tons (depending on how much armor was on it) and have three carry positions. Side carry would protect from that side and not impinge speed or weapons. Overhead carry for limited LRM protection, speed -25%. Front carry for big neck to thigh protection, torso weapons disabled, speed -50%. Another perk would be a pretty large canvas for the art team. Faction symbol, either bright or subdued? Or maybe a Go-Daddy advertisement (jk). Three Centurions abreast, shields forward and free arm firing would look pretty wicked.

Other ideas: some mechs with anthropogenic legs could kneel for a lower profile. JJ's with better in-flight control. Lots of these things have been suggested in the forums. Limiting them to certain mechs would add character.

Edited by BearFlag, 12 September 2015 - 08:38 PM.

[Krivvan]

Steppenwulf, on 12 September 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

the current time frame is around 3053ish so remind me again why Clan mechs needed quirks (positive or negative) in the first place? you guys want a more "balance" state between IS and Clan machines then advance the time line to the Jihad era. too much tweaking to satisfy E-Sporters and newbs to the Battletech universe is starting to take it's toll.

The "E-Sporters" you're talking about don't like buffing good Clan mechs either.

Our interest is in having as wide and varied meta as possible. Not buffing one single style as much as possible, otherwise we'd be loving the PTS quirks instead of strongly disapproving of it.

[IraqiWalker]

Koshirou, on 12 September 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

You know, if I didn't know better I'd think that PGI's plan was actually to simply shut up complaints about the current balancing... by introducing the Damocles sword of a much, much worse system, which they can then reluctantly agree not to implement "for the time being".

I share a similar line of thought. Except I'm seeing it as them going "this is a sum of many of your suggestions. Look at your works and despair". Clan pilots got their mechs unnerfed, and IS mechs lost their weapon quirks. Plus, most quirk decryers got to see what the game looks like without the quirks they've been complaining about. Seriously, all they are missing is removing ghost heat and removing gauss charge, for it to be the perfect package of what the community says it wants, but doesn't realize is bad.

[Wintersdark]

IraqiWalker, on 12 September 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

I share a similar line of thought. Except I'm seeing it as them going "this is a sum of many of your suggestions. Look at your works and despair". Clan pilots got their mechs unnerfed, and IS mechs lost their weapon quirks. Plus, most quirk decryers got to see what the game looks like without the quirks they've been complaining about. Seriously, all they are missing is removing ghost heat and removing gauss charge, for it to be the perfect package of what the community says it wants, but doesn't realize is bad.

I agree completely, but in all honesty:

If they removed ghost heat as well, I'd be extremely happy...

... as a starting point to balancing anew. I still detest Ghost Heat, but don't think simply removing it would improve the game at all; I'd just like to see a new direction taken moving forward without it.

But that's not going to happen, and really isn't even worth talking about.

[dario03]

Is this still going live on the 22nd patch or did it get pushed back?

[Kin3ticX]

Trading the old quirks for sensors and health is a bad trade. I think think a lot of the outcry stems purely from anticipated Clan-IS balance after this. I was one of the players that provided feedback that 50% range, heat, and cooldown quirks solved some problems but created others. PGI seems to have a new plan here...but where are the global weapon balance changes to reflect the removal of super quirks? My understanding of the weapon quirks was to help bandaid the clan-IS power gap and from the PTS I am not sure what the plan with that is now.

Defensive health quirks are the weaker variety of quirk. For example, if you get 50 armor and you take one hit from a TBR then for the rest of the match the old power gap is back save for mobility nerfs to Clans.

If we look at some of the best IS mechs right now (WVR-6K, TDR-5SS, STK-4N) they tend to approximate clan power, some have to give up speed or durability but they worked. They were at least approximations of Clan performance while lacking the Clan speed/techbase. Without the heat quirks or range quirks and nothing substantial taking their place I don't know what the IS even has to work with.

Not sure how to propose a solution. Just by looking at it on paper it looks like the wrong direction or has a missing piece. I'd like to see the Infotech features refined but I think on their own they are significantly milder than combat ability quirks. This has been in trend in MWO that is well understood. The idea of a stock Raven-3L or something similar takes a back seat to killing stuff in a Firestarter or what have you. I don't really see infotech changing this unless further testing proves otherwise.


I admit I havent really looked deep into the ramifications of infotech yet. Only caught the simple gist that some 'mechs are better at infotech, some 'mechs are not, and some 'mechs can shoot LRMs after losing LOS for much longer, like ~7 seconds or something.

If anyone has a list of positive Infotech themed mechs and perhaps a list of mechs with the worst infotech negatives please shoot it by me.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 13 September 2015 - 12:48 AM.

[Osprey Hawk]

What I absolutely abhor about the quirk system is that the Founders Jenner just has the one Reduced Missile quirk! Heck, nearly all the Jenners had just one or two quirks while the other lights had over a dozen "enhancements" that allowed them to perform better than my Jenner which resulted in me dying way faster than should've been possible (IMO).

[Gleech]

i'm not seeing anything in there that even pretends to address clan-vs-IS balance, which is the problem that I and basically everyone I know would actually like to see solved. i can't figure out what the numbers are likely to be from this, but, what it sounds like is happening, is you're taking away the thing that makes some rare IS mechs (like the Huggin) actually interesting, because making them almost as good as a Clan mech was also making them way better than other IS mechs, and that's somehow bad?

Also, those grids remind me of the personality grids from the Order of the Black Dog cast page. Hey, how open is my DDC, and how neurotic is my Dire Whale?

Edited by Gleech, 13 September 2015 - 12:50 AM.

[poopiepants]

so we are going to re-balance mechs that uhhhhh are not supposed to be. you can not compare clan and sphere. id suggest you guys act go play the act table top. you guys have left out vechs ,vtols, and battler armor. no arrow 4 i could go on all day? you guys are trying to **** the battletech universe but dont even come close to what the game is really about. if bf4 can have tanks, troops, and air combat then im sure so can mwo. you guys are clueless about what the battletech universe really is. i mean CW is nothing more then the objective raids source book? not like it took alot of work to copy and paste this info did it? and i do understand some skills and weapons need a tweek. but all the cry babies going on and on. about clan mechs, obv are clueless about the real history of them. and that they are supposed to be billy bad asses. better tech, better skilled,better mechs., you guys dont even get the match making right, for tonnages if facing an all clan force?contact your local commando rep for battletech and get informed.

[Gleech]

PGI boldly decides the IS-vs-IS balance isn't good enough, and removes a popular feature that made some IS mechs playable!

Meanwhile, in the actual game:

the clans continue to conquer everything.

Edited by Gleech, 12 September 2015 - 10:10 PM.

[Javenri]

Paul, I believe that all community agrees that re-balancing was necessary for all mechs. Despite the lore, in an online game you need to have balanced factions. All mechs should have strong and weak points so the other side can nullify or take advantage of. The problem is that the way you chose to proceed with this balancing is not "symmetrical". IS mechs were made somewhat viable vs. their Clan counterparts with the addition of weapon quirks. Removing those quirks and trading them for armor or time to lock on buffs is hardly equal. Clan mechs are stronger not only due to weapons, but as a total combination of engine/weapons/heatsinks characteristics and IS mechs need something to be competitive against that. I can't see how getting detailed target information is the game changer since most people don't need that to fight effectively.

Information warfare can only be used to change the balance between lighter vs. heavier mechs, not between factions. You need to come up with a different approach to faction vs. faction balance. My simplified concept is the following:
-Clan mechs: less agility, more firepower, less heat efficient. They would have the advantage in more static battles, with hide and seek tactics and big alphas.
-IS mechs: more agility, less firepower, more heat efficient. They would have the advantage in open maps where speed and sustained damage will win the day.

To this end, you could add some generic quirks to IS mechs (heat generation, acceleration/decelaration rates, torso turning rates, armor/structure) to bring them in par with their counterparts. In other MMORPG's terminology, this concept is the direct damage vs. the damage over time analogy.