772 replies to this topic

[Hydrocarbon]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 11 September 2015 - 08:42 PM, said:

You guys seams to be slaves of some stats. How about we remove K/D ratio stat then, so you would stop jerr/king off every night seeing your game profile.
So we can have real W/L stat to do so.

You're an utter fool if you think you can use changing game mechanics to bend people's will. As covered earlier, if you alter how someone's supposed to have fun in a game, they will LEAVE IT FOR ANOTHER.

In other words, you need to change the world before you change the game. Have fun with that...

Chef Kerensky, on 11 September 2015 - 09:01 PM, said:

The game is fundamentally built around killing mechs.

As are virtually all war games. The only time killing is less vital in a game mode is when an action will enable even more efficient killing. Freeze Tag mod in COD4 comes to mind - you unfreeze a teammate increase your chances at surviving and therefor killing more.

Edited by Hydrocarbon, 14 September 2015 - 08:00 AM.

[Veev]

I got a great way to balance it.... Remove ghost heat from IS weapons and the Gauss charge up delay from IS weapons. People now have a reason to play IS mechs.

[Gut]

chiXu, on 14 September 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Copy&pasted from reddit because lazy.

PGI needs to invite the competitive community, and not just a select few such as SJR, to help -them- balance their own game, because they can't do it themselves.
[/list]

Lol I wish they took our advice. They really, really do not.

[Tombstoner]

Paul, please invest your time into modeling the interactions between mech size/art work/hit box interaction and movement speed. This would go far in balancing inter, intra mech durability across all mech designs Clan and IS simultaneously. Quirking is taking the place of mech specific co factors. That information should be under the hood and available only to PGI.

[Zweistein]

Paul Inouye, on 11 September 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

Clan technology is and commonly known to be over-powered using BattleTech rules.

This really shows how you guys don't understand the battletech universe. Yes, 1 on 1 clan tech is overpowered if a regular 3050 clan mech meets a regular 3050 is mech of the same weight category, BUT that's not how the balance worked.

Some general things to keep in mind:

* Clan pilots were genetically bred pilots, who went through extensive testing and training and a trial at the end. It was not uncommon to see more than 60% of the initial sibko fail before even reaching trial of position. This ensued that a regular clan warrior as the left the academy was likely on the same level as an IS elite mechwarrior. Add to that years of experience and and occasional enhanced imaging implant and you have a monster piloting a mech of superior technology.

* Speaking of that, IS technological curve stalled and even reversed after the second succession war. Clan technological curve, while initially stalled until their colonies had established, later sky-rocketed. Clans are technologically at least 100 years - 200 years ahead of IS at this stage. IS is barely reinventing Star League technology.

* A regular (non elite, non royal-guard, non field test) company usually had access to the same technology as they did in 3015. Pulse and ER lasers, ultra autocannons , streak srms, as well as endo-steel, ferro-fibrous, XL engines, Double heatsinks and Artemis IV were considered experimental systems at the time. Only a few of IS companies had access to these on a regular basis.

* Because of the above the battle value system exists. In order to fight 1 on 1 vs clan mech, two 10 ton heavier IS mechs are usually needed (this is if we include the clan übermensch pilot vs IS regular pilot). For a regular Inner Sphere unit to defeat a regular clan unit the IS unit would usually need a 2 to 1 mech advantage at the very least.

It is (in my opinion) necessary to understand this before attempting any (re)balance or we face the possibility of the same/similar issues arising as with the quirk system. Moreover certain people, like myself, will always be displeased with a system where (in 3050) an IS mech can stand up to a clan mechs in an 1 on 1 battle. it just doesn't feel right.

Actual balance changes I recommend are:

* If we must default to 1 vs 1 battles. Don't give clans extended burn time, greater spread, greater recharge, etc. That just makes certain clan weapons less viable than the ought to be. Keep it simple. Have clan weapons do the same amount of damage as IS. To combat the clan range/weight/critical advantage have clan tech generate more heat. Clan omni-mech advantage is countered by not being flexible in terms of endo steel, Ferro fibrous and armour (yes even the armour levels should be locked).

* For pub matches make sure that there are exactly the same number of the same weight and same technology base mechs on each side. Facing off two teams where one has a clan tech advantage is not very balanced. I would ever recommend that IS vs Is and clan vs Clan matches be played only. With community warfare I would recommend a 10 on 12 matchup (2 clan stars on 3 IS lances) with the current tonnage differences and no quirks.

* At least attempt a battle value balanced system. Turn off quirks and restore classic battletech values, then use sarna and/or Solaris-skunk works or any other mechlab program to calculate battle values and create a custom match where you drop a Clan vs IS match of the same value, with and without using reinvented IS technology. I think you'll realise just how much more skill it takes to defeat IS mechs with experimental technology, when the IS has both a weight and a number advantage. And even without the reinvented Star League tech, I'd like to see a star (5) of Timber Wolf primes (BV 13 685) take on 8 or 9 Awesomes AWS-8Q (BV 12 840 or BV 14 450, respectively) and say that clan tech is over-powered.

[MercJ]

I'd really like to see more effort applied to asymmetric warfare as a balance mechanism, rather than trying to make everything "equal". Nothing is ever equal. That's why one team wins - you cannot balance everything. The current effort is ridiculously complicated, and won't get any closer to a workable solution without hundreds of hours of testing - and introducing a new mech/map/mechanic might throw the whole thing off anyway.

Reset all weapon/chassis/heat etc. values to their defaults, get rid of ghost heat, and try 10v12 (Clans vs IS). Use the PTS for THAT first. What can it really hurt? Can't be worse than this approach, and it's a LOT less complicated. 10v12 in pub/solo queue, and 10v12 in CW. Two buckets. You're either a Clan or IS pilot for that drop, not both. It's never been tried, and I bet it would make gameplay a lot more interesting (perhaps, even FUN. Yes, for BOTH sides. I'd like to play on either side of that battle.)

[Erebus Alpha]

There are three major problems with the mech rebalancing:
  
  Information warfare, in its current state, is quite useless. You need completely new gameplay mechanics to make this work. Without new infowar, even a buff that makes a mech instantly target multiple hostiles in its FOV is 100% useless against a 5% weapon cooldown reduction. Infowar needs sensors, anti-sensors (hey, let's call it ECM), and passive sensors. It might even need things like stealth armor and limited bandwidth (the delay between targeting and the target becoming visible to teammates).
  
Some mechs' hitboxes are so terrible, the only thing that could ever legitimately make up for their fragility is insane firepower. The clans suffer a lot from this. Has anyone in the history of MWO EVER missed the CT of a Dire Wolf, Timberwolf, Stormcrow, Mad Dog, Nova, Summoner, Ebon Jaguar, or Warhawk? It is ridiculously easy to steamroll all of these mechs because they cannot spread damage by turning away from enemy fire. I put seven clan medium pulse lasers & heat sinks until every crit was occupied on a Timberwolf once, and even that amazing firepower failed to even slightly diminish the utter fail of its massive CT hitbox. I would have sold it, because I hate it, but I already spent MC for pretty camo.
  
Finally, a lot of people seem to be whining about the potential 'sameness' of designs that may result from dequirking. Please...shut up. Every good iteration of the Mechwarrior/Battletech franchise has featured an almost endless array of loadout options, with the explicit aim of letting you apply almost any loadout to whatever mech you like the most. I utterly hate the firestarter cockpit, and there is NO legitimate reason why my double-AMS & quad-medium-pulse-laser build should be restricted to that garbage-can. The only good reason to choose one mech over another is SUBJECTIVE OPINION - aka, this mech is my favorite, it looks the coolest. Any other reason is garbage, and mechs SHOULD perform similarly enough that subjective opinion becomes the dominant force behind what mechs appear on the field. Unless every single mech and variant can be configured to be any one of dozens (ideally hundreds) of different top-meta builds, balancing has failed.
  
Start homogenizing hitboxes, generalizing quirks, and increasing role intercompatibility, and you might have a game worth playing for more than a few hours per month. The only thing MWO has over Mechwarrior 4 is prettier graphics. See if you can guess which game I play more, and see if you can guess why.

Edited by ABFalcon, 14 September 2015 - 11:00 AM.

[Apnu]

chiXu, on 14 September 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

tl;dr

• PGI communication vanished again
• InfoTech is a joke
• Sean Lang explaining the actions of something he's not even fully informed of because PGI couldn't be bothered to do it themselves
• PGI needs to man up and make some solid, definitive decisions about identity
• Weapons as a whole are broken and need to be balanced before everything else is balanced
• PGI needs to invite the competitive community, and not just a select few such as SJR, to help -them- balance their own game, because they can't do it themselves.

I honestly thought that was the Community Manager's job. To be the voice of the company to the community and also listen to the community and relay back to the company.

But then what do I know.

Maybe that's the job of a PR person, someone I don't think PGI has.

[Necromantion]

Let me make a prediction here. This is going to result in a stupidly homogenous feel to mechs that will first of all not stop boating of weapons other than on some hyper quirked IS mechs.

Paul you really need to look at the bigger picture here as it seems PGI has struggled to do for the last few years.

Mech variants are not meant to be homogenous, in any game not even mech related there are always better characters/vehicles/weapons. Quit catering to the QQ crowd that they cant use one or two variants of a mech as well as another and say tough crap.

This super re-balancing that youre striving for is going to be a monumental waste of time and resources again, mark my words.

Yes Clan and IS need some slight tweaking in terms of balance between the two factions but differences in strengths and weaknesses is what makes for strategy not homogenous builds and feels to mechs that result in boring predictable gameplay.

Your big issue is CW, NOT mech balance. Quit wasting your manpower resources and our money.

Apnu, on 14 September 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

Maybe that's the job of a PR person, someone I don't think PGI has.

Thats the clueless Tina nit who youve heard squeaking in videos.

[Christof Romulus]

Dear Paul,

After reading the proposed changes I find myself ambivalent.

On the one hand, many of the players of this game are accustomed to the game the way it is now and to some degree fear changes to it (and I openly admit I fall into this category).

On the other hand, in its current state without an overhaul, releasing Mechwarrior Online onto Steam will not be successful due to the many factors (such as an inhospitable interface, difficult gameplay, seasoned players, "house rules" such as ghost heat, etc.).

This 're-balancing' attempt has a lot that it needs to accomplish and, honestly, likely isn't going to be enough by itself to warrant a Steam release.

With that said, please consider the following:

Firepower - What determines this? A Ballistic hardpoint on a 100 ton assault is worth FAR more than a Ballistic hardpoint on a 35 ton Light. Please, when determining the slider position of firepower on a mech take this into consideration as well as hardpoint placement. On the subject of hardpoint placement, imagine a triangle - the top of the triangle being the cockpit. The farther horizontally or lower the weapon is from the cockpit, the less it's worth.

Protection - It looks like you are using flat armor and structure to determine how well protected a mech is - and that isn't enough. How easy it is to land shots where you want them on a mech, hitbox size and shape factor in far more than the actual value of armor. I have a Raven with 0 armor on one arm, which I never lose, for example, as size and speed is a protection factor all its own that must be considered which your chart appears to ignore. The Atlas, Dire Wolf, and King Crab all have the most armor, but the Timberwolf will outlast any of them in damage absorption due to hitboxes alone. Please consider this.

Infotech - Simply put, this doesn't exist in the game as we have played it for the past few years. Whatever it is you're doing on this front, it better be something that affects players on a minute-by-minute basis: not just a spotting bonus. Everyone understands the value of Armor, and the value of Damage and Speed because they experience it in every game ALL game long. For infotech I suggest making PPCs scramble the HUD (like they used to in previous titles) as well as anything else you have planned. Perhaps it's time for the C3 unit to become equipment in the game now.

Movement - For some reason this isn't being factored into protection. Perhaps you should consider linking them in your assessments.

[Apnu]

Zweistein, on 14 September 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

This really shows how you guys don't understand the battletech universe. Yes, 1 on 1 clan tech is overpowered if a regular 3050 clan mech meets a regular 3050 is mech of the same weight category, BUT that's not how the balance worked. Some general things to keep in mind: * Clan pilots were genetically bred pilots, who went through extensive testing and training and a trial at the end. It was not uncommon to see more than 60% of the initial sibko fail before even reaching trial of position. This ensued that a regular clan warrior as the left the academy was likely on the same level as an IS elite mechwarrior. Add to that years of experience and and occasional enhanced imaging implant and you have a monster piloting a mech of superior technology. * Speaking of that, IS technological curve stalled and even reversed after the second succession war. Clan technological curve, while initially stalled until their colonies had established, later sky-rocketed. Clans are technologically at least 100 years - 200 years ahead of IS at this stage. IS is barely reinventing Star League technology. * A regular (non elite, non royal-guard, non field test) company usually had access to the same technology as they did in 3015. Pulse and ER lasers, ultra autocannons , streak srms, as well as endo-steel, ferro-fibrous, XL engines, Double heatsinks and Artemis IV were considered experimental systems at the time. Only a few of IS companies had access to these on a regular basis. * Because of the above the battle value system exists. In order to fight 1 on 1 vs clan mech, two 10 ton heavier IS mechs are usually needed (this is if we include the clan übermensch pilot vs IS regular pilot). For a regular Inner Sphere unit to defeat a regular clan unit the IS unit would usually need a 2 to 1 mech advantage at the very least. It is (in my opinion) necessary to understand this before attempting any (re)balance or we face the possibility of the same/similar issues arising as with the quirk system. Moreover certain people, like myself, will always be displeased with a system where (in 3050) an IS mech can stand up to a clan mechs in an 1 on 1 battle. it just doesn't feel right. Actual balance changes I recommend are: * If we must default to 1 vs 1 battles. Don't give clans extended burn time, greater spread, greater recharge, etc. That just makes certain clan weapons less viable than the ought to be. Keep it simple. Have clan weapons do the same amount of damage as IS. To combat the clan range/weight/critical advantage have clan tech generate more heat. Clan omni-mech advantage is countered by not being flexible in terms of endo steel, Ferro fibrous and armour (yes even the armour levels should be locked). * For pub matches make sure that there are exactly the same number of the same weight and same technology base mechs on each side. Facing off two teams where one has a clan tech advantage is not very balanced. I would ever recommend that IS vs Is and clan vs Clan matches be played only. With community warfare I would recommend a 10 on 12 matchup (2 clan stars on 3 IS lances) with the current tonnage differences and no quirks. * At least attempt a battle value balanced system. Turn off quirks and restore classic battletech values, then use sarna and/or Solaris-skunk works or any other mechlab program to calculate battle values and create a custom match where you drop a Clan vs IS match of the same value, with and without using reinvented IS technology. I think you'll realise just how much more skill it takes to defeat IS mechs with experimental technology, when the IS has both a weight and a number advantage. And even without the reinvented Star League tech, I'd like to see a star (5) of Timber Wolf primes (BV 13 685) take on 8 or 9 Awesomes AWS-8Q (BV 12 840 or BV 14 450, respectively) and say that clan tech is over-powered.

Neat ideas but I think the game needs a few other changes beyond tech balancing.

Trying to balance 3050 clan tech to 3050 IS tech, and preserve some semblance of source material connections can't happen. The tech is broken from that perspective. Jordan Wiseman even said so.

You are right, however, finding other ways to balance is worth looking at.

First off players should be able to make characters that are IS or Clan as a "race" That, right there solves the mix-tech problem (players wanting to have both clan and IS mechs and mix-and match them when the game is supposed to be about the Clan Invasion)

Then those characters should have skill trees so they can specialize in weapon systems and weight classes and so on. That will allow players to choose a path to balance without having to chase the broken IS/Clan balance problems.

Those characters should also have their own c-bill bank and economy.

Next clan characters should have different rewards and payouts based off doing things the clan way. Look to Zellbrigen for hints. Give the clan character big bonuses (c-bills and XP) for targeting only one enemy and staying on that enemy until he's dead. Give him negatives if he fires on another enemy. Give him bonuses if they fight under tonned. (say a SCR taking on an Atlas), to represent the bidding process. There are so many things in the clan's culture PGI can reward the player with if they follow the rules, and if they don't... well they get a pay out, just not a great one.

This idea would also solve the clan cost issue. Since clan tech costs so much more, these c-bill bonuses would help solve that. Yes, we all know that in the clan world, the warrior caste never paid for their mechs and the mechs were interchangeable to the pilot, but this is a "Mercs" game so we'll never get away from c-bills. Fine, but let's modify things for clan players so if someone wanted to, they could get into the clans day one and stay there if that was their wish.

Doing things like that will then balance the game without having to masticate quirks all the time. Plus create a new meta-game, while adding to the depth and immersion for the player.

Necromantion, on 14 September 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

Thats the clueless Tina nit who youve heard squeaking in videos.

No need to be a d*ck about her. She's an employee and is probably doing what her boss tells her to. She's doing way better than the other CM's we've had.

Seriously making fun of her voice? What a jerk.

[Geldrin]

Until these crazy hardpoint-count mechs are in play, all this arguing about quirks and infotech mumbo-jumbo are totally worthless!

The main reason which broke the game's balance in the last year is the insane amount of hardpoints the new mechs have. Assault mechs for example, are intended to carry large, big-hitter weapons. These days, all the heavies and assaults around (besides a few exceptions, like the 2PPC 2GC DWF build) are carrying a ****-ton of lasers, allowing players to create these stupid alpha builds which totally ruined the gameplay we get used to...

Just take a look at the Victor. It was a really decent, popular assault mech in it's own time, until other assaults with more hardpoints become available. This mech have a really scarce hardpoint pool: none of the 3 main weapon groups have more than 3 slots, thus forcing players to use heavy weaponry, clever maneuvering, and a good load of jumpjets.
Better piloting skill over stupid high alpha/meta play junk. Same goes with Atlas, Orion, Awesome, Catapult, AC20 Hunchie etc...

Now if you take a moment to inspect the newer models, it's clearly visible that the devs gone mad with the hardpoint designs. Seems like they think more is always better... and sadly, most of the players are absolutely okay with this kind of mindset.
Just take look at the Executioner. It can carry more lasers on its right arm, than a whole AWS-8Q!!! And the list goes on with the Thunderbolt, Ebon Jaguar, Timber Wolf, Hellbringer, and so on.
This is completely unrealistic, and it's not supposed to work like this.

So please, devs.... if you REALLY want to rebalance the game, reduce the number of hardpoints.

The active/passive radar would be another great addition regarding the ECM tweak.
(see Tennex's detailed post here: http://mwomercs.com/...49#entry4564949)

Thanks for your kind attention!

TL;DR:
To solve the balance issues with the new mechs, we need to reduce the number of hardpoints only. No quirks, no weapon nerfs, no movement buffs needed... just think again the hardpoints, and everything will be cool again.
Cheers!

Edited by Geldrin, 14 September 2015 - 02:02 PM.

[ShinobiHunter]

MechWarrior James, on 11 September 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

As a trueborn warrior and loyalist of Clan Smoke Jaguar, I am disheartened and frustrated by PGI's insistence on "game balance" between IS battlemechs and Clan omnimechs, as well as the constant nerfing of our omnimechs to achieve it.

I have supported this game financially over the past year through the purchase of individual omnimech chassis (via mech credits and a la carte), the Clan Wave 3 package, and Faction content items, but am deeply dissatisfied at seeing the omnimechs I have bought with real money not being allowed to operate at their full potential. Paul's above indication that there are more nerfs to come to bring the omnimechs down ever further below some wholly subjective 70% OP rate is troubling in the extreme, and leaves me questioning whether or not I should continue to support this game any further.

Let me be clear...I do not expect "god mechs," but I do expect omni technology to be utilized as it is in the lore, or else there is no real point in playing in a Clan faction if my weapons and support systems are going to be neutered in such a fashion. The heat spikes are maddening enough on chassis that were designed to carry multiple weapons of the same types. I love the look and feel of the game, but the nerfs have to stop if I am going to continue playing and supporting it financially.

Seyla.

Omnimechs were "god mechs" according to lore. Not a single Shadowcat was lost to Inner Sphere forces until Tukayyid, if that's any indication. If translated directly to MWO, there would be absolutely zero reason to play IS mechs. In a single player or co-op PVE game, you can have such blatantly overpowered equipment and call that end-game content. In a PVP only online game, that is terrible and would ruin most mechs not named Timberwolf, Direwolf or Stormcrow. I don't have a problem with clan mechs being better than IS, but I shouldn't be writing a eulogy for my Atlas every time I see a clan mech on the opposing team.

[Kaptain]

chiXu, on 14 September 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Copy&pasted from reddit because lazy.

All right, good effort on trying to explain things /u/SeanLang[1] . You shouldn't have to do it though (and your video lacks a good deal of flow, meaning your attempt at explaining PGI's balance-wizardry still lacks substance).

First and foremost, this is a massive and atrocious failing in communication from the people at PGI. You'd have thought, following the stuff that's happened over the lifespan of MWO, that they'd have learnt their lessons regarding communication and game changes.

They clearly haven't, this doesn't bode well for other things.

On to the balance stuff

• Infotech - *As soon as you reach a certain skill level (average and above) in MWO, it's fairly useless. Lock-on range, target acquisition and information gathering times, it all becomes null for two reasons. Firstly, people know that aiming and shooting at a 'mech will result in the same thing, regardless of red boxes/Doritos/rag-doll readouts. Average and above pilots only need to visually see a 'mech to, in most cases, understand everything you need to know (Location, moving direction, likely loadout and what to target).

Secondly, with the majority of games being played as murderball vs. murderball, the tactical advantage one might gain as a singular entity vs. another singular entity (i.e. single 'mech vs. single 'mech), further information becomes worthless due to 'mechs being hit from all angles, from all sorts of different weapons, in mostly chaotic situations. And let's not forget, most maps let you get into a position where you can see across a map and spot the movement of the enemy with ease, there's your infotech right there.

• Clan vs. IS balancing - Without assigning some sort of definitive identity to the IS or Clans, this will always be, at best, an uphill struggle. Trying to balance something which was never intended to be balanced is asking for trouble and until PGi can decide what they want the two factions to be about, they'll never be able to pull this off. A decision needs to be made, and quickly, about the identity of IS and Clan. Will the IS be known as fast, sturdy 'mechs whilst the Clans will be known more for their uniformed efficiency and accuracy at range, or will PGi decide to reverse the roles and have clans better suited to brawling and knife-fights, with IS preferring a slower moving, ranged role?

Until a solid identity is given to the two factions, the balance will more than likely never happen (But they'll continue to sell 'mechs on the merits of they could potentially be capable of, and if they did give IS and Clans a solid identity, then they'd likely lose a lot of those sales due to people leaning more towards a specific playstyle, so if clans were better brawlers, people who like to play ranged would be less likely to buy clan packs.. so it'll probably never happen).

• 
  
  
  Firepower/Movement/Protection/Infotech - Firepower will, unless something massively changes with gameplay, be at least 75% of what makes this game. Ultimately, this is about putting your crosshair over an enemy 'mech, pulling the trigger and repeating until that 'mech is dead. Movement and protection are, in some cases, one and the same. Moving is protecting, protecting is moving. I know in this example, they're primarily talking about HP and speed/agility, but these values, unless modded to the extremes, are still always going to be playing second fiddle to firepower. There are variants in the game, many, which cannot compete due to either a lack of hardpoints, or too many hardpoints in the wrong places. We all know that monkey arms on 'mechs is a nightmare for shooting, and that missile hardpoints are worthless unless you're building a very niche 'mech. Smaller, lighter 'mechs with an abundance of ballistics hardpoints are 'hamstringed' from the get go due to the weight of not only ballistic weapons, but also ammunition. Not to mention that few ballistics are worth it.
  
  Infotech is a joke, in all honesty. It will take an extreme shift in how MWO is played to make this of any real worth, and using it as a pillar of balance, a point that 'mechs are measured and rated for, is a critical failure. It also highlights how severely limited PGI's understanding of their own game really is. It doesn't matter how little of a factor this actually plays in the balance, you say in the video that it isn't that big of a deal.. so this begs the question, why is it even being used as a balancing factor at all? If MWO had something in place like World of Tanks, where 'mechs had differing view ranges and such, then sure.. InfoTech would be really helpful, especially on light 'mechs. But that's not how things are right now, thus it's moot and null and in all honesty needs to be removed from that 4-pillars graphic and for all 'mechs to be rated purely on the other performance measures.
  
• 
  
  
  How to balance? - The Quirkening, as it was penned, was a response by PGI and Paul Inouye to try and balance the game out (And the dire situation of IS vs. Clans). He all but blamed this on 'certain parties', which can probably be equated to a select few of the competitive community, and maybe a few other voices. What Paul continued to do, however, is where he messed up balance, and it is also where he can reapproach the issue with a better mentality.

Firstly, Paul was always chasing the meta. The competitive community, and high-skilled players in general, quickly adapted to whatever changes were made to start using the best, most efficient, min/maxed 'mechs available. Why wouldn't they? Most people want to win, so of course the majority of players will adapt to using whatever the competitive players are using to win. By constantly chasing after the power creep of adaptive builds that spawn from high-level play, this further compounded the disparity between chassis' and factions 'mechs. (I'm pretty sure there's been PGI comments about players not playing the game like they intend, it's a good indication of amateur believes from a developer; people will play game which gives them the best chance at winning, not how you want them to play it).

Now, rather than chase the developing meta or trying to swim against the tide of whatever spawns as a result of the balance changes made, Paul needs to open up communication with the people who will ultimately decide the meta in the game; The competitive/high-skilled community. And I'm not talking about a select few SJR and couple of others, either.

What they, PGI, need to do is send an invite to the unit leads/reps of each competitive unit in MWO, asking for those units to each put forward a number a members (2, 5, 10, w/e) to offer their views and insights and criticisms about all things balance related in MWO. 'Mechs, weapons, factions, maps, you name it, it all plays a part.

There are a lot of smart (and some not so smart) people out there who have put a lot of time into this game, hundreds upon hundreds of hours. Paul and PGI can pour over their graphics and charts and internal information but they'll never have that same level of real lifeexperience of how things perform in the game. I've never seen a PGI member who was good at playing the game, so without tapping into the experience of skilled players, they'll constantly be behind the curve of developing meta. And that's what the balance is all about, right? PGI want to create their own balance that has multiple potential meta's, so they need to take the wealth of experience and insight from the proper people to be able to fully understand what can be abused, what can be helped, what can be changed.

People will probably say "Go post on the MWO forums if you have good insight". I can tell you right now, a massive majority of people with a lot of really smart ideas and inputs stopped trying to make those particular voices heard a long time ago, 30-50 pages of feedback threads dilute a lot of the weight of input, and it's largely mixed with people who really don't have a clue what they're talking about.

It's about time PGi really opened up to the competitive community to talk about balance, invite guys from the various units to a closed forum where a lot of the unnecessary noise of public posting is gone and get down to proper discussion. All of the big games do it, Valve runs stuff by the pro players on a regular basis, LoL has the same. Riot talks to the pro players about balance, because ultimately, they are the guys that will show the meta to everyone else that plays. PGi need to re-embrace their communication with the community, and it's about time they started properly working with the comp scene because if there's any one particular scene that can help you balance the game out, it those guys with their wealth of insights and experiences.

tl;dr

• 
  
  
  PGI communication vanished again
  
• 
  
  
  InfoTech is a joke
  
• 
  
  
  Sean Lang explaining the actions of something he's not even fully informed of because PGI couldn't be bothered to do it themselves
  
• 
  
  
  PGI needs to man up and make some solid, definitive decisions about identity
  
• 
  
  
  Weapons as a whole are broken and need to be balanced before everything else is balanced
  
• 
  
  
  PGI needs to invite the competitive community, and not just a select few such as SJR, to help -them- balance their own game, because they can't do it themselves.

This. 1000x this.

[IraqiWalker]

Nightshade24, on 13 September 2015 - 08:51 PM, said:

large areas have large boarders, the bigger the boarders and the more fronts you have the harder it is to progress. This applies to every event in history with every faction and is part of the defeat of some large empires, Ranging from Roman, {Godwin's Law}, etc. The reason why Russia is so big is because literally no one wanted that large area of land, it has little value. The advancement of clanners stabilised soon after they got terra.


On top of that- my point was to the person which I responded to which is valid for the conversation- but like how you shifted the whole focus and claim my point is void- however you also did the exact same thing as me by showing that factions are indifferent but only the players that play them (for eg 8 people in ghost bear, MS formerly in clan wolf, etc.) With your evidence here you state that clans are not OP, nor are they UP- but it's the fact that people jump ship, shifted, etc and it's mainly about population then being overall OP- granted clan wolf got a population spike due to reaching terra and verging to reach it- thus a lot of lore nuts out there like me fight to get terra hence the population spike in recent events for Clan wolf.

Me saying that clan wolf got a population increase, by no means renders "clan mechs are OP" invalid.

Also, in this game having 4 planets, or 300 desn't impact the defense AT ALL. You can only get attacked on one planet per border, anyways.

[no one]

This seems like a rather lackluster and tone-deaf first step to sensor warfare. I hardly needed a google search to find better suggestions.


Information warfare needs to have a perceptible effect if you want people to care. Engagements are rarely long enough for target acquisition speeds to matter, which is it's own issue. Making sensor ranged based information warfare, and THEN give some 'Mechs quirks for speed, range, target retention, multiple target locking, info sharing, retaining last know enemy positions and so on.

I just. . . see a lot of good (and bad, sure) ideas discussed here that never seem to get any consideration. I feel like this could have been vastly improved upon if there had been any discussion here of what they were planing for IWAR before they went forward with all the effort required for a test server stage.

[Nightshade24]

IraqiWalker, on 14 September 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

Me saying that clan wolf got a population increase, by no means renders "clan mechs are OP" invalid.

Also, in this game having 4 planets, or 300 desn't impact the defense AT ALL. You can only get attacked on one planet per border, anyways.

it does for clans when there is only 1-2 boarders (depending on the fact if clans attack each other or not, which is 2 for some clans) to something like 4-6. Which is clear hear because marik, liao, and davion are also now engaged in some/ most fighting to towards certain clan factions.

[IraqiWalker]

Nightshade24, on 14 September 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

it does for clans when there is only 1-2 boarders (depending on the fact if clans attack each other or not, which is 2 for some clans) to something like 4-6. Which is clear hear because marik, liao, and davion are also now engaged in some/ most fighting to towards certain clan factions.

Yes, that's still 1 planet per border. Considering the border clan wolf has right now, it should be suffering from severe attacks across multiple planets, not just 1 per faction border.

[fuguzawaz]

Koshirou, on 13 September 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

Would you switch to the Inner Sphere - permanently, as a loyalist player - under the conditions you propose?

no, i wouldnt, as any true loyalist wouldnt.
I would play clan if i didnt get paid anything.
playing inner sphere should be common; playing clan should be privilege.
I would happily subscribe to zelbrigan without in game rules, but thats just me.

Edited by fuguzawaz, 15 September 2015 - 01:39 AM.

[grayson marik]

Hmm I would go by an entirely different, yet simple Battle Value system:

Every Mech / weapon/ equipment starts with a base BV the BV of a mech is calculated chassis BV +Weapon BV + equipment BV

Lets say at start the average Light Mech will reach 200, Med 400, Hvy 600, Assault 800 BV.

Now those values get shiftet automaticly by usage, kills and average xp earned by all players on all matches.

So Mechs like the 9ss, that get used a lot will spike in BV, others will loos BV value. Also weapons and equipment will rise / fall in numbers by usage numbers and damage generated etc.

Now, the average BV of all Mechs in the game will be the limit for Drop Decks on CW which means, maybe the average of all mechs will be 300 per Mech. Now you have 4x300 = 1200 BV available to stuff into your Drop Deck in CW or maybe 300x12 to create a PUG group whatever.

The result is a self regulating BV system, that makes riding META expensive in terms of available BV on a team and which also promotes low BV Mechs to be used to even out Drop Decks.