772 replies to this topic

[Ismael]

o0Marduk0o, on 08 November 2015 - 10:53 PM, said:

Founders should know better than buying overquirked mechs. No sympathy for you.

hush hush little troll, return under your bridge

[o0Marduk0o]

Ismael, on 08 November 2015 - 11:28 PM, said:

hush hush little troll, return under your bridge

There are already too many trolls, I found no place to rest. But here it's nice, I think the forums will be my new home.

[Lord Auriel]

these "clans NEED to be stronger, it's in the lore!" arguments make me cringe.Balance the game or GTFO. If you want to play the TT, play the TT.

[Hoboshank]

GOLFisNOTaSPORT, on 05 November 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

In my opinion, the basic plan for balancing between Clan and IS units is flawed. Clan 'Mechs are supposed to be individually overpowered compared to IS 'Mechs. But the Sphere wins out in the end. Why? Differences in tactics.
...
Instead of nerfing individual Clan units, we need to find a way to force Clan pilots to follow Clan rules of engagement. A good first step would be changing Clan queue sizes from the Inner Sphere standard Company (12) to a Clan Binary (10) or even a Star (5). Penalizing Clan pilots for firing on units already being targeted by another Clanner would be a good second step, as well as for firing on a 'Mech's rear armor.

Nope, this is stupid as hell.
People play games to win. Unless you do some really counter-intuitive garbage, two mechs firing together will always do more damage than one firing alone. Therefore if you want to win, it will always be in your interest to team up and concentrate fire. No amount of penalizing people (which they will hate) will stop them.
Take your lore-hardon somewhere else and let the rest of us get drunk and blow **** up with robots.

Edited by Hoboshank, 09 November 2015 - 07:33 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Hoboshank, on 09 November 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

Nope, this is stupid as hell.
People play games to win. Unless you do some really counter-intuitive garbage, two mechs firing together will always do more damage than one firing alone. Therefore if you want to win, it will always be in your interest to team up and concentrate fire. No amount of penalizing people (which they will hate) will stop them.
Take your lore-hardon somewhere else and let the rest of us get drunk and blow **** up with robots.

It could be done:
1) make Clan mechs run off a totally different form of currency than IS
2) make that currency obtainable only by fighting like a clanner
-Only one target damaged at a time or you forfeit your earnings
-Let a Clan mini-game happen where you bid up, quickly, against your mates for the honor of battle, if you win and win the fight gain a multiplier on the enemy.
-recognize that if the enemy doesn't follow the rules you don't have to either... so only the first engagement will matter in most cases
-give IS pilots the option to respond to direct challenges for their own rewards.

[Hoboshank]

Prezimonto, on 09 November 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

It could be done:
1) make Clan mechs run off a totally different form of currency than IS
2) make that currency obtainable only by fighting like a clanner
-Only one target damaged at a time or you forfeit your earnings
-Let a Clan mini-game happen where you bid up, quickly, against your mates for the honor of battle, if you win and win the fight gain a multiplier on the enemy.
-recognize that if the enemy doesn't follow the rules you don't have to either... so only the first engagement will matter in most cases
-give IS pilots the option to respond to direct challenges for their own rewards.

Great, so now we're creating a new grind to get through.
Not only do you have to suffer through the xp grind on 3 mechs to get them ready for CW and unit drops, you would then have to role-play a clanner and grind up clanner-bucks for consumables and upgrades, so that you can get to the endgame content of actually playing together as a team.

[Tarl Cabot]

Chocowolf, on 07 November 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Personally I feel like with these changes it feels less and less a Mechwarrior game. The clans are better mechs which is represented by their much higher prices so yes it makes sense that their equipment should be better and in previous titles being an "arm race" for clan tech. I am a strong believer that there are better ways to Balance IS vs Clan being able to fight in stars and lances would be a great start. The IS weren't supposed to fight clan on equal number teams the IS having an advantage in numbers. With the current model of 12 vs 12 that gets thrown out of the window with the sides being unbalanced. Honestly makes me wish clans weren't added if they are not done properly

Using Tonnage as a balancing point is also something that has been a long problem for MWO. A Battlevalue system would be much more efficient to balance mechs on how well they actually perform over how heavy the mech is. A 75 Ton Orion and a 75 Ton Timberwolf play quite differently from each and shouldn't be considered equal like they are now

The T-wolf would likely be more equivalent to a Battlemaster. But then PGI's MWO does not have all the give/take that the boardgame has for its foundation, from actual engine crits or heatscale thresholds that causes a mech's performance to drop. Even weapon crits do not instantly disable a weapon, it is destroyed once it has been crit enough bring its Hitpoints to zero.

But then one of the creators who introduced the clans have already said that Clans were OP to start with. Were you aware that when Clans were first play tested they were using Star League era mechs and equipment, and could not make any major headway into the IS, places that were using primarily 3025 technology, mechs/tanks? Think about that for a few, and that is with the Clans coming in through the periphery and outlying worlds. Stopped cold in their tracks. And that is with the bidding process that would drop 2 Stars to a Star and 1-2 Points vs IS Company, none of this 10vs12. That is when Clan omni mechs and equipment were created. Will say one of the really nice thing was the omni pod, allowing a change in equipment based on the mission, be it a hit hard, heavy with an expected quick finish, or an extended campaign with few or no supply depots. Where as for an IS mech, that took weeks or months to make changes, anything done quicker resulted in a weaker weapon/issues, thus the mechwarrior did the best he could with the equipment he did have.

PGI is attempting to make the game ready for Steam release, which means a ton of players in Trial mechs first (several are actually pretty good) then to their first stock mechs, before they are able to customize them, then afterwards. PGI is starting to link other aspects of the Battletech universe, while attempting to make changes that brings the two technologies closer together, with their own flavor, strengths and weaknesses. Truthfully, PGI would be the first developer who is making the the PC game with primary audience in a PVP format, Clans included, where as the MPBT games did have more of the BT foundation but had yet to deal with Clan technology it during their times, while the MW versions with IS/Clans were PVE setting with PVP element added, never mind Clan equipment could be equipped on IS mechs.

[Bullseye69]

Here is something radical give the is a 2 slot xl engine just like the clan counterparts. Keep everything else the same a dump this on the test server and see how it goes. In lore the clans have longer range there stuff is lighter and they have better heat sinks, they have ferro and endo that take less space and heatsinks or 2 slot. The inner sphere was at a disadvantage but since the clan fought with the honor system bid minimum force and would only engage one on one unless the other side broke the rule it kind of evened out some. In cw there is no one on one there is no balance since we having to fight there 48 to our 48 and the other team runs the meta mech timber hellbring mad cats nothing the inner sphere has of the same tonnage can stand up on on one to them not without superior pilots on inner sphere side. The xl rule would make it a fair fight since the inner sphere could still loose a torso and fight like their clan counter part and would have same option to put bigger engine or more cooling on there mech. It might be the easy way to get balance better and get more people to play CW.

[Veev]

Bullseye69, on 10 November 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

Here is something radical give the is a 2 slot xl engine just like the clan counterparts. Keep everything else the same a dump this on the test server and see how it goes. In lore the clans have longer range there stuff is lighter and they have better heat sinks, they have ferro and endo that take less space and heatsinks or 2 slot. The inner sphere was at a disadvantage but since the clan fought with the honor system bid minimum force and would only engage one on one unless the other side broke the rule it kind of evened out some. In cw there is no one on one there is no balance since we having to fight there 48 to our 48 and the other team runs the meta mech timber hellbring mad cats nothing the inner sphere has of the same tonnage can stand up on on one to them not without superior pilots on inner sphere side. The xl rule would make it a fair fight since the inner sphere could still loose a torso and fight like their clan counter part and would have same option to put bigger engine or more cooling on there mech. It might be the easy way to get balance better and get more people to play CW.

Or a better idea is make it more Lore base, Clan stars vs IS Lances. Give the clans 2 stars and the IS gets 3 Lances. 10 v 12 and then you can give them tonnage rules/restrictions. Also to make weight tonnage based on actual mech weight. That Atlas might be formed light and only weigh in at 75 Tons. So it counts as a 75 ton mech.

As to the pug que/skirmish drops, merge it into the CW side of things and find a way to make it work.

[Bullseye69]

Veev, on 11 November 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

Or a better idea is make it more Lore base, Clan stars vs IS Lances. Give the clans 2 stars and the IS gets 3 Lances. 10 v 12 and then you can give them tonnage rules/restrictions. Also to make weight tonnage based on actual mech weight. That Atlas might be formed light and only weigh in at 75 Tons. So it counts as a 75 ton mech.

As to the pug que/skirmish drops, merge it into the CW side of things and find a way to make it work.

Problem is they have already stated they cant go that route of 12 vs 10 and i agree that would be a better option. The reason the clans or so tough to beat is that every mech they have pretty much has a xl engine in it which gives them more cooling or more weapon or more ammo or more speed. If they had to fight with the same weapon limits the IS has in terms of tech then they would be so tough to fight. They also could never come up with the mad cat or mad dog with it load of missile and direct fire weapons. They would only have token backup weapons like or missile boats have.

Just thought that might be a option they could explore since they keep trying this or taht for balance and it not fixing the issue and we need this fixed and tested and in place before steam release. Plus they need to get the rewards finalize for al;l the steam players coming in so a they can earn enought to pick up several mechs to get them hooks and not piss them off with the grind that we have been thru for the last 2 years plus we need the population to enlarge and hold not a brief shoot of new players and then they all leave to try something else....

You can't keep spending time trying to fix this weapon and it throws all other weapon out the door, maye they could do a yearly balance pass on weapons to tweak major things but we need more people playing and CW aspect if they could get it going right is the hook and right now it so broken trying to fight clans is a laugh. They are beatable 12 vs 12 but it usually a good fight but when you added the respawn and their great heavy chassis it not even funny any more.

[van Uber]

Veev, on 11 November 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

Or a better idea is make it more Lore base, Clan stars vs IS Lances. Give the clans 2 stars and the IS gets 3 Lances. 10 v 12 and then you can give them tonnage rules/restrictions. Also to make weight tonnage based on actual mech weight. That Atlas might be formed light and only weigh in at 75 Tons. So it counts as a 75 ton mech.

As to the pug que/skirmish drops, merge it into the CW side of things and find a way to make it work.

This is not realistic. Russ have stated several reasons, each on their own a good reason to not consider this route. But besides a lot of technical challenges, it also will send a strong message that mech by mech Clans are superior. Where do you think new players will flock? Most new players simply go to what they perceive as the best option and if the game blatantly states that in its core mechanic, it will be a big sign screaming "take this path for success".

Russ on 10v12:

Quote

We have come to the conclusion that, for the foreseeable future, this is NOT a viable option for MWO, here are some of the reasons why:

- UI redesign of the pre-game, scoreboard and end of round screen.
- New rules for tie breakers surrounding the uneven team sizes
- Significant re-factoring of the match maker to develop team sizes that don’t match.
- 'Mech chassis tonnage balancing will no longer work.
- Elo will no longer work with 10 vs 12 team calculations.

These elements alone (not including other edge cases) represent at least several additional weeks, if not months, into refactoring and testing time before they would be ready for deployment. That is time that will directly impact the development and delivery of CW modules 2+.

But perhaps more importantly than that, if we went down this path the overall message to the community is basically “Yes your IS mech’s are weaker, but if you put lots of them together you might win”. This is not what we communicated to the MWO community as to our plans for the Clan mech’s and how they would balance within MWO.

[AntleredCormorant]

Quote

But perhaps more importantly than that, if we went down this path the overall message to the community is basically “Yes your IS mech’s are weaker, but if you put lots of them together you might win”. This is not what we communicated to the MWO community as to our plans for the Clan mech’s and how they would balance within MWO.

Interesting. This sounds like "if we fix the problem that would be admitting that there was a problem."

[van Uber]

AntleredCormorant, on 12 November 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Interesting. This sounds like "if we fix the problem that would be admitting that there was a problem."

No. That's a rather dishonest interpretation.

If they cater to lore, Clan mechs will be superior by design and that will attract more players than inferior IS, which is unwanted for several reasons.

[ZenFool]

van Uber, on 12 November 2015 - 11:44 PM, said:

No. That's a rather dishonest interpretation.

If they cater to lore, Clan mechs will be superior by design and that will attract more players than inferior IS, which is unwanted for several reasons.

LET THEM. It doesn't take very long at all to realize how OP superior numbers are in this game. I for one would be interested in seeing how this turned out.

[van Uber]

ZenFool, on 13 November 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

LET THEM. It doesn't take very long at all to realize how OP superior numbers are in this game. I for one would be interested in seeing how this turned out.

Perhaps, but it would take a long time to implement, rather large resources need to be diverted to achieve something that in all likelihood will be a nightmare to balance. So basically invest a lot in order to maybe be a step closer to lore, but realistically end up in a dead end and a desperate need to roll back.

I'd rather they spend what resources they have on more constructive ventures.

[JaidenHaze]

Enforcing Zellbrigen will not work. First, you cant communicate with the enemy in a way that makes sense.

Second: Zellbrigen is off the table as soon as a non-involved mech fires upon the clan warrior. And lets be honest, this may work with some roleplay guys. But we are about to be on Steam. Explaining or enforcing this wont work.

Lastly: "A warrior has the right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected, and has the right to refuse a challenge from a unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available."

Even in CJF, one of the clans that follow a strict interpretation of Zellbrigen, opportunistic situations made them break the rule. Especially after Tukkayid.

Here is a quote from Sarna about that:

Quote

Interpretation

How zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.

In the end a warrior's personal honor is subservient to that of his military unit or caste, which in turn is subservient to the honor of their Clan: this can sometimes result in individuals or units using dishonorable tactics "for the greater good." Many Inner Sphere observers were shocked for example when the 2nd Falcon Jaegers abandoned zellbrigen in their attempt to capture Victor Steiner-Davion on Alyina. Though rigid traditionalists the Jade Falcons recognized that capturing the heir of the Federated Commonwealth would bring great honor to their Clan, and so the unit's personal pride took second place.

About the PTR changes: I strongly disagree with the intended DHS changes. Right now, they are penalizing as is. They use 2 slots. I cant choose SHS. But with the intended changes, SHS would be plainly better. Space is a problem and this wont help. You guys already chose to not use the 2x stronger heat dissipation to make SHS somewhat competative. I get behind that, as Clan mechs should be roughly in balance. But this? Seriously?

In the 3050, most IS mechs and all Clan mechs where equipped with DHS, since their benefit was that good. Is this bad? Not really. I dont see a reason to encourage players to buy mechs and upgrading them with DHS. This would guide the new players to make a better mech and be more competative. Lets be honest. Stock mechs shouldnt be good, if they have 3025 equipment.

[Daitarn4]

CASH SHOP REBALANCE for STEAM, i don't see any MECH REBALANCE.
No modification of the game or improvement.

IS vs CLAN is a good topic to distract the community.
Clan or IS we all play this game.

I agree to buy and invest in the mech game if he shows seriousness and a political game / commercial serious and long lasting. Start over and throw 99% of the time and money spent are the little things that make games eating money of mobile phones.

This is Sad.

Edited by Daitarn4, 14 November 2015 - 12:22 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

MercilessTRADER, on 08 November 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

Well they make you spend money, hundreds of dollars in total on certain mechs and packs ect.. Like the gauss heavy GRID IRON... The only reason I would EVER BUY the grid was cause of the fast gauss shot... Now this is getting taking away? Do these developers have any decency.. Do they understand this isn't a joke? Oh yeah they want me to spend another 50 on the latest and greatest LOL... While they are changing all the cool weapon perks, the reason I bought certain mech's AND on top of that BS!?!? I NOW I HAVE TO PLAY CONQUEST.. The best part is they make it seem like its more CHOICE.. Why do they insist of this? They tried it before.. WHY DO YOU WANT ME TO SPEND HUNDRED OF DOLLARS TO NOT PLAY WHAT I WANT? Wait times? PSR? I could care less about waiting FOR A GAME I WANT. I know my time is insignificant to U PGI. Everyone is just numbers to U.. These free games and their stupid pay structures, make less game, more things to buy, have helped ruin all videogames AND now has taking this FOUNDER and the rest of my founders friends too to other games.. A long time supporter signing off..

OH yea the balance was supposed to be done at BETA i thought...What a JOKE.

If you paid an iota of attention, you'd realize they didn't do anything wrong. They have always stated that everything is subject to change. You buying a mech simply because it was OP, and then getting pissy about it being brought down to reasonable levels is on you. Not them.

[Prezimonto]

Hoboshank, on 09 November 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

Great, so now we're creating a new grind to get through.
Not only do you have to suffer through the xp grind on 3 mechs to get them ready for CW and unit drops, you would then have to role-play a clanner and grind up clanner-bucks for consumables and upgrades, so that you can get to the endgame content of actually playing together as a team.

Eeehh... it's clan tech, if you want to OP individually compared to IS, and the devs don't want to allow 5 on 10 fights, then there's no great way to balance outside of something like I proposed.

I'm also not in favor of it, I was mostly saying it could be done.

[mad kat]

By and large after reading (scanning) through this https://mwomercs.com...rk%20Values.pdf i have to agree with the intended direction of quirks making them more generic and flexible on a weapon group. The mobility boosts on some mechs is also a nice touch.

Some mechs that are OP are still and some highly quirked mechs remain like the Dragon 1N and Wolverine 6R i'm fine with that. But they've dropped the ball on the arrow giving quirks to three energy hard points rather than its six ballistic hard points errr.. The CN9-AH has completely rendered the YLW obsolete the Hero is too under quirked although the slight nerf to torso speed being moved to turn rate is odd. And the Pretty baby has seen a mobility increase moderate nerf to the energy weapons but only a slight boost to the missiles, interesting.

I'd like to test some mechs out on the PTS but they client can't find any matches so it has to be testing grounds.

Edited by mad kat, 19 November 2015 - 06:23 AM.