12 replies to this topic

[Yosharian]

Background: Paul Inouye (MWO Lead) has posted a thread on the The Great Rebalance. Read that first.



This is a proposal to introduce true information warfare into Mechwarrior Online. Since I have been accused of griping about the new proposed changes on the PTS server without having made any concrete suggestions of my own, here is what I think Information Warfare could look like in MWO.



What is INFORMATION WARFARE?

Wikipedia defines Information Warfare as follows:

Quote

Information warfare may involve collection of tactical information, assurance(s) that one's own information is valid, spreading of propaganda or disinformation to demoralize or manipulate[1] the enemy and the public, undermining the quality of opposing force information and denial of information-collection opportunities to opposing forces.

To break that down into MWO-friendly terms:

a) Collecting tactical information on the enemy: where is the enemy? How many mechs? What mechs? What mech loadouts?

b] Deceiving the enemy: stop the enemy from knowing information about your forces; feed him false information.

c) Undermine the quality of his information: make his data hazy and vague wherever possible.





[II] What INFORMATION WARFARE does MWO currently have?

1) Find target location, mech chassis & variant

2) Find target's components and component status

3) Deny enemy targeting data via ECM

4) Deny enemy ECM via Active Probe





[III] Is this really INFORMATION WARFARE?

• Enemies can frequently be destroyed without even targeting them
  
• Most weapon systems do not require an active target; those that do are either underpowered or regarded as 'noob weapons'
  
• Deathball strategies prevail in vast majority of games, where targeting data is almost irrelevant
  
• Relatively small maps make finding the enemy a non-issue
  
• Immediately knowing a chassis/variant frequently tells you everything you need to know; target data is frequently irrelevant
  
• There are no methods currently to feed your opponent false information
  
• Undermining data quality is not possible

In summary: no. Information Warfare is non-existent in MWO, and where it does exist it primarily serves to negate an entire weapon system (LRM) regarded by the majority of the playerbase as a weapon for 'noobs' and 'cowards'. Competitive, high-level play in MWO is known for its complete disregard (and abandonment) of this weapon system, and often ECM is barely valued at all.










[IV] How to introduce INFORMATION WARFARE into MWO

Let's take another look at Information Warfare:

• a) Collecting tactical information on the enemy: where is the enemy? How many mechs? What mechs? What mech loadouts?

The capability to collect this information in MWO exists, but it is not useful because this information is either useless (just kill anything that moves), or it is redundant to gather it (we already know where they'll be as soon as we see one of them).


In order to make collecting tactical information important, these two problems must be solved.

Step 1: all enemy mech models (the 'shape' of a mech visually), chassis & variant name, and callsign are hidden until the mech has been properly identified. Identification takes one minute standard at ranges 650m+, with details coming one by one (visual model first, then chassis, then variant, etc). Identification beyond 900m is not possible without an onboard Active Probe.

Under 650m, mech models are revealed automatically to the scout only - before that, only a pixellated (or similar visual 'jamming'/'hazy' effect) blob can be seen, and the 'blob' skitters around on the HUD in an irregular manner making identification via observed speed impossible, as well as impeding accurate weapons fire. The scout can then inform the rest of the group using text chat or VOIP if they are familiar enough with the mech's silhouette that they can identify the mech. Further identification takes 30 seconds standard under 650m.

Under 450m, mech models and chassis name and callsign are automatically revealed to the scout only. Further identification takes 20 seconds standard under 450m.

Under 300m, mech models, chassis & variant name, callsign, components and their status are automatically revealed to the scout only, but components and their status are revealed with the usual (current) MWO delay. (5 seconds or something? w/e)

In order to share targeting data automatically with friendlies, both mechs must carry an Active Probe. (Since a proper targeting system with C3 does not exist in MWO)

Information Warfare-specialized mechs such as the Raven gain this data twice as quickly as other mechs. An onboard Active Probe doubles the speed again. I.E. a properly equipped Raven could fully detect an enemy mech in 30 seconds at ranges above 650m, and 15 seconds below 650m, and so on.

Target decay: when a target is lost, its 'state' is captured. When an enemy mech is reacquired, the mech must work for a short time to figure out if this mech matches the old targeting data. (Basically that hard work spend ID-ing a target isn't all lost, it just decays slowly; if a mech stays hidden for a long time then it'll take some time to re-identify it, but disappearing for a mere moment and then reappearing will have almost no effect)

Result: Scouts must get close, or spend time spotting, in order to collect tactical information. Without this information, enemy forces are unidentifiable, and even when this data is obtained by the scout, unless shared by multiple Active Probes, targets remain almost impossible to hit at ranges greater than 650m until the first 'layer' of IW is penetrated. Target data is crucial to obtaining kills at range. Brawling has massive IW advantages as under 300m all data is revealed pretty quickly.

Justification: Space Magic? Who gives a ****? This ain't tabletop. If you want a proper reason, assume that all battlemechs/omnimechs carry very basic scrambling/jamming technology that allows them to at least put up a fight in the targeting war at longer ranges.

Step 2: complete redesign of game modes, map design, etc. More objective-based gameplay. Create a need to hold many objectives at once, and suddenly scouting becomes that much more important. What we currently have: Skirmish, Skirmish-with-bases, Skirmish-with-capture-points.

• b] Deceiving the enemy: stop the enemy from knowing information about your forces; feed him false information.

Complete overhaul of ECM is needed. Currently ECM does one thing: it stops targeting data from being obtained. ECM needs to play a more deceptive role in MWO.


Step 1: ECM halves all identification speeds of mechs under the ECM umbrella (100m), and quarters ident speeds for the mech carrying the ECM. That means the ECM mech will be identified in 4 minutes standard at ranges of 650m+, while mechs under the umbrella will be identified in 2 minutes standard. ECM is no longer 'TURN OFF' button for targeting, it simply takes much longer. First target layer broken = LRMs/SSRMs can be fired. Each layer broken provides a targeting bonus to tracking weapons (better convergence on CT).

ID speeds get faster at each range increment just like normal targeting - ECM just halves the ident speed at each stage.

Step 2: While ECM is unbroken on the ECM mech (first targeting layer (visual models) is not penetrated), enemy mechs will receive false targeting data. Examples: one mech appears to be 3. A locust might appear to the enemy to be an Atlas (and vice versa). A mech might appear to be travelling far faster than it actually is. Incoming LRM warnings might trigger for non-existent LRMs. This effect affects all enemy mechs within 900m.

Step 3: Active Probe works in direct opposition to ECM. These two systems fight each other whenever they meet, with the ECM's trickery effects being nullified if the Active Probe is within 180m of the ECM mech, or nullified for friendly mechs under the Active Probe's own umbrella. Onboard Active Probe provides twice the speed for defeating ECM targeting protection as already stated.

Step 4: Multiple ECMs work together to amplify all these effects. ECM umbrellas overlap and provide double the protection. Similarly, multiple Active Probes work together to defeat ECM units that are under their effects.

There's huge potential here for all kinds of trickery.

• c) Undermine the quality of his information: make his data hazy and vague wherever possible.

At the moment targeting data is binary. You've either got it or you haven't got it. Data needs to be more granular. ECM should have a passive, permanent effect that confuses component data. Components appear undefined or completely wrong. An AC-20 might simply be ID'd as 'AC', or even an AC-5. That laser vomit mech you've spotted - is it carrying mediums, or smalls? (firing will obviously reveal the true weapon, but it's still a bit confusing) If it's protected by ECM, who knows? Components also appear less, or more damaged than they actually are.

This effect is defeated by enemy Active Probes in the same way as the trickery effect is. Once the last targeting layer is broken, this effect will be cancelled.





[V] Isn't this all horrendously complicated? What's wrong with simply playing with targeting data speeds as they currently exist in MWO?

Yes, but I don't care; I'm just spitballing. I'm not even that knowledgeable about tabletop - half this **** probably breaks every rule in Battletech. It probably is too complicated, but I had a lot of fun imagining all this clever stuff happening. It's what I imagine when I think of the term 'Information Warfare', anyway. At the end of the day I'm not a game designer, I'm just some pleb who's read too many sci-fi novels.

Paul's suggestions to play with targeting speeds seem to display a startling lack of knowledge about the game. So many people in this game don't target legs, or take the time to focus weakened mech components. Making it harder to get target info when piloting Dire Wolves doesn't feel like balance to me. I don't see why I'd take a Jenner D over a Jenner F merely because the D variant has 10% faster targeting. It is completely irrelevant to me.

That said, I'm willing to be proven wrong if the game heads in a direction which, ultimately, leads to actual Information Warfare. I just don't think this is a particularly impressive start.

Edited by Yosharian, 12 September 2015 - 03:13 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Here's a video I did of the PTS today showing the new info warfare stuff:





It was a stream video, so the quality isn't as good as if I had recorded it.

[Davers]

Nightmare1, on 11 September 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

Here's a video I did of the PTS today showing the new info warfare stuff:





It was a stream video, so the quality isn't as good as if I had recorded it.

tldw? What was your take on it?

[Khobai]

making mechs detect other mechs faster/slow at different ranges is NOT information warfare.

information warfare is about screwing with the opponents head by giving them incomplete information or deliberate misinformation. its about psychological warfare as much as anything.

PGI needs to undo this travesty of a rebalance and give us back weapon quirks. at least mechs were different in appreciable ways then... not just in how fast they detect things at different ranges. what a joke.

Edited by Khobai, 11 September 2015 - 05:16 PM.

[LordNothing]

you could probibly aid in deception by introducing things like flares and decoys (possibly consumables or weapon systems). a light can fire off flares to create false heat signature to confuse radar and create false blips, which of course will be found to be false at a certain range and will be filtered out of the scanners. electronic decoys might require being destroyed to make go away. you could also add a confuse function to ecm to broadcast a lance worth of false radar signatures around the carrying mech. these kinds of things are likely stupid easy to implement.

i kinda want mechwarrior to at least record information about the enemy throughout the battle. populate the game with targeting data as it comes it. including enemy mechs and varients. you might populate the score screen with information about enemy mechs as the sensor data comes in. also individual mech targeting info gets stored in your targeting computer. if you return to a target you instantly get out of date info about the mech until your scanners get new data, you might have an indicator to show whether the data is store or real time.

i really think mwo should consider doing a c3 like system for target data sharing instead of the share everything all the time system we have in place. it is likely the main reason lrms seem op. if lrms were forced to stay in the c3 bubble to get targeting info they might actually stay with the group. you could even make ecm a soft counter at that point. MWLL did this really well. it was implemented more like c3i, no master/slave units, just a single unit. it only really took one or two c3 equipped mechs to really turn around a game. it would also give lights another job, to function as info sharing hubs.

ecm itself needs some kind of change, and i dont think its bubble size. so far my favorite options here are to either add more modes, or to have seprate guardian and angel, with different feature sets and tonnage/slot requirements. or some combination of the two. one idea i had was that ecm should be able to protect you (stealth), protect a group around you (protect), or break enemy ecm (disrupt). a 4th mode (spoof) for throwing off decoy signatures would be nice. guardian would have everything but protect and angel would have everything but spoof. in addition ecm would be made a soft counter and would really complement more robust target sharing rules. you would also have to do something about stacking bubbles, like two ecms in protect shouldnt be able to cover eachother, though you might allow a protector to cover a disruptor. as a soft counter you could probibly stack lock times for targets in multiple bubbles, of course bap, tag, narc and targeting computers would be counters for that.

ive said it time and time again that the system that MWLL used was damn near perfect and that trying to invent a half measure system would end up creating more problems than it would fix.

Edited by LordNothing, 11 September 2015 - 05:19 PM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Well this fix seems to have balanced ECM since now all Mechs seem to have ECM...

It is especially disorienting since all friendly mechs have red letters over them now...

People may not like the change but it is more realistic not to simply shoot at a target bracketted by a nice red brackets. Too easy. Also weapons like Guass that leave no visible trail are more powerful now. Also zoom helps much more since visibility is now much more important. Camo may now be a factor as well....

Is the BAP now the most important piece of equipment?

Edited by MechWarrior5152251, 11 September 2015 - 05:40 PM.

[El Bandito]

Posting this here so people can use it in their rage posts regarding the PTS rebalancing.

[Kira Onime]

People will stop caring about the "information warfare" pretty quickly IMO.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Kira_Onime, on 11 September 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

People will stop caring about the "information warfare" pretty quickly IMO.

Easy to want something when you have no idea what it is:)

How does Radar Derp work now? Seems like its power would be even more important.

[Luca M Pryde]

Yosharian, on 11 September 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Background: Paul Inouye (MWO Lead) has posted a thread on the The Great Rebalance here.



This is a proposal to introduce true information warfare into Mechwarrior Online. Since I have been accused of griping about the new proposed changes on the PTS server without having made any concrete suggestions of my own, here is what I think Information Warfare could look like in MWO.



What is INFORMATION WARFARE?

Wikipedia defines Information Warfare as follows:



To break that down into MWO-friendly terms:

a) Collecting tactical information on the enemy: where is the enemy? How many mechs? What mechs? What mech loadouts?

b] Deceiving the enemy: stop the enemy from knowing information about your forces; feed him false information.

c) Undermine the quality of his information: make his data hazy and vague wherever possible.





[II] What INFORMATION WARFARE does MWO currently have?

1) Find target location, mech chassis & variant

2) Find target's components and component status

3) Deny enemy targeting data via ECM

4) Deny enemy ECM via Active Probe





[III] Is this really INFORMATION WARFARE?

• Enemies can frequently be destroyed without even targeting them
  
• Most weapon systems do not require an active target; those that do are either underpowered or regarded as 'noob weapons'
  
• Deathball strategies prevail in vast majority of games, where targeting data is almost irrelevant
  
• Relatively small maps make finding the enemy a non-issue
  
• Immediately knowing a chassis/variant frequently tells you everything you need to know; target data is frequently irrelevant
  
• There are no methods currently to feed your opponent false information
  
• Undermining data quality is not possible

In summary: no. Information Warfare is non-existent in MWO, and where it does exist it primarily serves to negate an entire weapon system (LRM) regarded by the majority of the playerbase as a weapon for 'noobs' and 'cowards'. Competitive, high-level play in MWO is known for its complete disregard (and abandonment) of this weapon system, and often ECM is barely valued at all.










[IV] How to introduce INFORMATION WARFARE into MWO

Let's take another look at Information Warfare:

• a) Collecting tactical information on the enemy: where is the enemy? How many mechs? What mechs? What mech loadouts?

The capability to collect this information in MWO exists, but it is not useful because this information is either useless (just kill anything that moves), or it is redundant to gather it (we already know where they'll be as soon as we see one of them).


In order to make collecting tactical information important, these two problems must be solved.

Step 1: all enemy mech models (the 'shape' of a mech visually), chassis & variant name, and callsign are hidden until the mech has been properly identified. Identification takes one minute standard at ranges 650m+, with details coming one by one (visual model first, then chassis, then variant, etc). Identification beyond 900m is not possible without an onboard Active Probe.

Under 650m, mech models are revealed automatically to the scout only - before that, only a pixellated (or similar visual 'jamming'/'hazy' effect) blob can be seen, and the 'blob' skitters around on the HUD in an irregular manner making identification via observed speed impossible, as well as impeding accurate weapons fire. The scout can then inform the rest of the group using text chat or VOIP if they are familiar enough with the mech's silhouette that they can identify the mech. Further identification takes 30 seconds standard under 650m.

Under 450m, mech models and chassis name and callsign are automatically revealed to the scout only. Further identification takes 20 seconds standard under 450m.

Under 300m, mech models, chassis & variant name, callsign, components and their status are automatically revealed to the scout only, but components and their status are revealed with the usual (current) MWO delay. (5 seconds or something? w/e)

In order to share targeting data automatically with friendlies, both mechs must carry an Active Probe. (Since a proper targeting system with C3 does not exist in MWO)

Information Warfare-specialized mechs such as the Raven gain this data twice as quickly as other mechs. An onboard Active Probe doubles the speed again. I.E. a properly equipped Raven could fully detect an enemy mech in 30 seconds at ranges above 650m, and 15 seconds below 650m, and so on.

Target decay: when a target is lost, its 'state' is captured. When an enemy mech is reacquired, the mech must work for a short time to figure out if this mech matches the old targeting data. (Basically that hard work spend ID-ing a target isn't all lost, it just decays slowly; if a mech stays hidden for a long time then it'll take some time to re-identify it, but disappearing for a mere moment and then reappearing will have almost no effect)

Result: Scouts must get close, or spend time spotting, in order to collect tactical information. Without this information, enemy forces are unidentifiable, and even when this data is obtained by the scout, unless shared by multiple Active Probes, targets remain almost impossible to hit at ranges greater than 650m until the first 'layer' of IW is penetrated. Target data is crucial to obtaining kills at range. Brawling has massive IW advantages as under 300m all data is revealed pretty quickly.

Justification: Space Magic? Who gives a ****? This ain't tabletop. If you want a proper reason, assume that all battlemechs/omnimechs carry very basic scrambling/jamming technology that allows them to at least put up a fight in the targeting war at longer ranges.

Step 2: complete redesign of game modes, map design, etc. More objective-based gameplay. Create a need to hold many objectives at once, and suddenly scouting becomes that much more important. What we currently have: Skirmish, Skirmish-with-bases, Skirmish-with-capture-points.

• b] Deceiving the enemy: stop the enemy from knowing information about your forces; feed him false information.

Complete overhaul of ECM is needed. Currently ECM does one thing: it stops targeting data from being obtained. ECM needs to play a more deceptive role in MWO.


Step 1: ECM halves all identification speeds of mechs under the ECM umbrella (100m), and quarters ident speeds for the mech carrying the ECM. That means the ECM mech will be identified in 4 minutes standard at ranges of 650m+, while mechs under the umbrella will be identified in 2 minutes standard. ECM is no longer 'TURN OFF' button for targeting, it simply takes much longer. First target layer broken = LRMs/SSRMs can be fired. Each layer broken provides a targeting bonus to tracking weapons (better convergence on CT).

ID speeds get faster at each range increment just like normal targeting - ECM just halves the ident speed at each stage.

Step 2: While ECM is unbroken on the ECM mech (first targeting layer (visual models) is not penetrated), enemy mechs will receive false targeting data. Examples: one mech appears to be 3. A locust might appear to the enemy to be an Atlas (and vice versa). A mech might appear to be travelling far faster than it actually is. Incoming LRM warnings might trigger for non-existent LRMs. This effect affects all enemy mechs within 900m.

Step 3: Active Probe works in direct opposition to ECM. These two systems fight each other whenever they meet, with the ECM's trickery effects being nullified if the Active Probe is within 180m of the ECM mech, or nullified for friendly mechs under the Active Probe's own umbrella. Onboard Active Probe provides twice the speed for defeating ECM targeting protection as already stated.

Step 4: Multiple ECMs work together to amplify all these effects. ECM umbrellas overlap and provide double the protection. Similarly, multiple Active Probes work together to defeat ECM units that are under their effects.

There's huge potential here for all kinds of trickery.

• c) Undermine the quality of his information: make his data hazy and vague wherever possible.

At the moment targeting data is binary. You've either got it or you haven't got it. Data needs to be more granular. ECM should have a passive, permanent effect that confuses component data. Components appear undefined or completely wrong. An AC-20 might simply be ID'd as 'AC', or even an AC-5. That laser vomit mech you've spotted - is it carrying mediums, or smalls? (firing will obviously reveal the true weapon, but it's still a bit confusing) If it's protected by ECM, who knows? Components also appear less, or more damaged than they actually are.


This effect is defeated by enemy Active Probes in the same way as the trickery effect is. Once the last targeting layer is broken, this effect will be cancelled.





[V] Isn't this all horrendously complicated? What's wrong with simply playing with targeting data speeds as they currently exist in MWO?

Yes, but I don't care; I'm just spitballing. I'm not even that knowledgeable about tabletop - half this **** probably breaks every rule in Battletech. It probably is too complicated, but I had a lot of fun imagining all this clever stuff happening. It's what I imagine when I think of the term 'Information Warfare', anyway. At the end of the day I'm not a game designer, I'm just some pleb who's read too many sci-fi novels.

Paul's suggestions to play with targeting speeds seem to display a startling lack of knowledge about the game. So many people in this game don't target legs, or take the time to focus weakened mech components. Making it harder to get target info when piloting Dire Wolves doesn't feel like balance to me. I don't see why I'd take a Jenner D over a Jenner F merely because the D variant has 10% faster targeting. It is completely irrelevant to me.

That said, I'm willing to be proven wrong if the game heads in a direction which, ultimately, leads to actual Information Warfare. I just don't think this is a particularly impressive start.

I agree more information warfare and subterfuge warfare would be good. Look towards the battletech card game for ideas if needed. IS should have more suberfuge capabilities and Clans should have more superior mech advantages.

Also general mech formation tactics that allows you to give commands easily to your lance mates without having to speak.

Another thing I think should be changed is the ability for lights to become the kings of the battlefield on 1 on 1 duals with assaults or heavies. In most cases the assaults or heavies cannot torso twist or turn to keep up with their speed, and network lag ensures they rarely get hit. Lights and heavies should never be able to take on an assault or heavy mechs. They should fear the sight of them and stay back but that is not the case in most situations.

These changes might be hard for the community to take in, especially people who have bought the lightest and most expensive engines to maximise the advantage of net lag other players experience. I think if all mechs are slowed down a bit then faster mechs like the Firemoth and Phantom will be able to introduced into the game which are are really fast.

[Sydney Sender]

What we have in game is ELECTRONIC Warfare, not INFORMATION warfare, INFORMATION WARFARE is the use of Psyops groups, Propaganda, and direct counter-intelligence work, we cant do that in game, it is a MONTHS/YEARS long process, E-WAR is the use of ECM jammers and ECCM to deny the enemy information via direct interference with their Radar/Sensor systems. Terminology is super important.
EDIT : I do Like your suggestions here, they're really quite good, I just get really miffed when people call EWAR, IWAR.

Edited by Solathon, 07 December 2015 - 05:51 AM.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Khobai, on 11 September 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

making mechs detect other mechs faster/slow at different ranges is NOT information warfare.

information warfare is about screwing with the opponents head by giving them incomplete information or deliberate misinformation. its about psychological warfare as much as anything.

PGI needs to undo this travesty of a rebalance and give us back weapon quirks. at least mechs were different in appreciable ways then... not just in how fast they detect things at different ranges. what a joke.

Agree that what PGI thinks is info warfare it is not but the last thing we need is the old weapon quirks. They need to revamp the skill tree requiring mech XP or CB to be used for respecing said quirks so we can choose our own quirks and strengths of mechs, strength of the quirk tied to mech tier level of course.

The bad part is they don't have the ingenuity or skills to give us a robust skill tree when every other game for decades has.

[Almond Brown]

It is still amazing that anyone thinks that allowing players to choose their own quirks will somehow change the mentality that has been rampant in any shooter game for many decades.

Choices:

1) Make my Mech Faster (cost - Armor and Firepower)
2) Make my Mech Tougher (cost - Speed and Firepower)
3) Give my Mech more Firepower (cost - Armor and Speed)

Pick 1.

Which one are you picking?