89 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

HuckBack vs ShadowHawk? you mean Turky vs Chicken? Tasty!!!
with out weapon Quirks and assuming both are Balanced(Shape vs bonus-Hp),
its now more of which mech i like the look of more and how i play them,
instead of having to run Only X Mech because of X Weapon Quirks,

[Archon Adam Steiner]

I never had an issue with quirks, insofar as the idea of them, at least. From a lore standpoint, it's perfectly reasonable that a 'mech that was especially designed to utilize certain weapons and perform a certain role would be more adept at employing them, either through higher-quality components or specialized ammo-feeds. After all, there were many different industrial companies in the Inner Sphere, and some built far better weapons than others, just like today's car manufacturers. Having a 'better' AC/20 on an Atlas makes sense, in that regard; the 'mech was built around the gun, and it would be reasonable to assume on a high-end Assault 'mech that the best components would be used. Likewise, the common example of the Dragon having a specialized feed for its AC/5 (i.e. reduced cooldown) also makes sense, as the 'mech was designed to be a fast-attack raider, supporting main battle-line 'mechs from afar.

The problems that affected quirks was two-fold, in my view. Firstly, the reality that some 'mechs needed such excessive ones in the first place to drag them out of the depths of obscurity was unfortunate, but highlighted the inequity that existed prior to their implementation. As others have said, though, I'd rather see quirks make a 'mech useful in at least one capacity than to have to never be able to pilot it in good conscience. As a member as one of the most competitive squads out there, I often feel shoe-horned into playing the same 'mech and the same loadout over and over and over and over... and... over and over. Quirks ameliorate that, to some degree, permitting a good pilot to climb into different chassis and not feel like they're doing their team a disservice. The negative angle was that quirks were not evenly distributed; some chassis suddenly had one highly effective variant, while the others remained useless. Some chassis that desperately needed improvements barely saw any. In my view, the quirk passes were not aggressive enough insofar as addressing the 'mechs that really needed the help. As a result, there are still many 'mechs that no pilot with a modicum of interest in competitive play will utilize.

The second issue was the giving of positive quirks to Clan 'mechs. This, in my view, was a mistake. In every regard, their equipment is superior, and a logical argument could be made that with their 'mechs designed to be adaptable/inter-changeable in terms of hardware that they would not likely have exceptionally specialized enhancements (like a rapid-fire Dragon-like AC/5), since a 'mech that was on an assault mission one day could need to be retrofitted for scouting the next day.

I appreciate the effort that the developers have put into trying to create a new way to enhance the game's complexity, but neutering the previous system, and injecting changes that do not address the incredible Alpha's of Clan 'mechs, while simultaneously doing very little to help 'mechs that are struggling means that this initial PTS build is far (far) from enough. In my view, infotech is a poorly executed concept, as anyone who can shoot straight is going to have little-to-no problem dealing with the fact that they cannot target someone, meanwhile those who aren't as strong will struggle greatly. This system will annoy many, and outright make the game extremely unfair for others.

Edited by Arrachtas, 12 September 2015 - 02:24 PM.

[Krivvan]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 September 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

HuckBack vs ShadowHawk? you mean Turky vs Chicken? Tasty!!!
with out weapon Quirks and assuming both are Balanced(Shape vs bonus-Hp),
its now more of which mech i like the look of more and how i play them,

We had both the Hunchback and the ShadowHawk before quirks. The ShadowHawk was vastly superior in that it was the same thing essentially, but with JJs.

Hunchbacks were extinct. Entirely. As in as extinct as the Kintaro is now. Maybe 1 Hunchback seen in dozens of games extinct. The Shadow Hawk was a common feature in every game.

Edited by Krivvan, 12 September 2015 - 02:27 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Haydin, on 11 September 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

I disagree. There are certain tactics that are just going to work well. For example, medium/long range, direct fire, high alpha damage with high mounted weapons. You do the most damage with the least exposure time. Certain mechs will better suit a tactic.

Weapon quirks are a potentially equalizing factor. Maybe what a mech is doing is not completely ideal, but maybe it does something SO well that it can break through that, or make up for weaker hardpoint mounts, limited mobility, etc. The current PTR quirks do not do that - the difference between 15hp on a component vs a 40%+ CD reduction is ENORMOUS. One gives you enough damage to actually win an exchange and combat high alpha with raw DPS, the other just means that you die in (maybe) one volley more. On a related note, this also means high mounts, especially those focused to one side of a mech, are now EVEN BETTER. +20 structure is not going to make up for exposing yourself on a mech with low-slung mounts.

Weapon quirks also meant that you could have a smaller mech designed around heavier weapons systems and they'd be potentially viable. Quirks made up for not being able to boat certain weapons. That's gone now.

The quirks acted as an equalizer on several levels, but they were done in an incomplete system.

• Heat Scale System - currently only carry over is what happens at max level and based on a currently flexible system on whether using SHS or DHS and how many are loaded. A more fleshed out heat scale can then been tweaked while still loosely associated with the BT/Solaris heat scale.
  
• Most humanoid mechs require extreme quirks more so than chicken walkers due to low slung, arm-mounted weapons, along side low mounted torso weapons.
  
• Mech lab inability on any mech to fill in high mounted hard points without filling in lower mounted first.

MWO is not played on a flat surface. Several factors determine how a mech will play out, from speed (Clan XL no negative cost - fixed but survivable w/lost of ST vs death for IS w/XL) to visible mech surface vs locations of hard points and how quickly those weapons can be brought to bear, fired and move on.

http://mwomercs.com/...t-high-terrain/

[Nik Kerensky]

Anyone have a source for any dev comments on the future of weapons quirks?

Edited by Nik Kerensky, 13 September 2015 - 12:21 AM.

[gloowa]

Mizeur, on 12 September 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

Without quirks, Clan laser boats and laser + Gauss boats are the dominant builds. Any mech that can't run those builds is inferior. Quirks limit the optimal loadout of a given variant but expands the number of viable variants.

Which is a reason the change clan gauss and clan laser, not make some arbitrary weapon twice as effective on some arbitrary IS mech.

[Nik Kerensky]

gloowa, on 13 September 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

Which is a reason the change clan gauss and clan laser, not make some arbitrary weapon twice as effective on some arbitrary IS mech.

Doesn't have to be arbitrary at all. Per the lore, certain weapons made by certain manufacturers can simply work better on certain mechs. Weapon quirks actually add a lot more depth to the game, and give several mechs a reason to exist.

[Nik Kerensky]

Mizeur, on 12 September 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

Without quirks, Clan laser boats and laser + Gauss boats are the dominant builds. Any mech that can't run those builds is inferior. Quirks limit the optimal loadout of a given variant but expands the number of viable variants.

Exactly.

[G4M3R]

1. There will always only be a handful of mechs worthy for meta/comp in any situation pre-balance or post-balance

2. Mechs are inherently DOA based on their hitboxes right out from the start. How do you balance that?

3. InfoTech unless if it is somehow related to damage dealt is pointless (as a scout in comp games - the info I gather is purely unquantifiable in nature).

4. Battletech is a great tabletop game, but is a ***** to balance in FPS.

[Koniks]

gloowa, on 13 September 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

Which is a reason the change clan gauss and clan laser, not make some arbitrary weapon twice as effective on some arbitrary IS mech.

Sure by all means. I'm completely in favor of rebalancing base weapon values. And totally willing to ignore the QQ from grognards who want Clan mechs as OP as they were in tabletop.

But you still have to balance all the other Clan advantages. And then you still have the original problems with hitboxes, hardpoints, and tonnage that made Trebs less useful than HBKs. Or SHDs better than Griffins which were better than Wolverines.

Or ECM mechs vs non-ECM techs. Or JJ mechs vs without JJs.

Quirks are necessary to smooth advantages and disadvantages.