33 replies to this topic

[Sezneg]

I've been trying out all of the spider variations on the test server and it's become very clear that the chasis is worse off than it currently is on live.

The targeting speed is nice, but not worth the loss of the weapon quirks.

My average damage and match scores are down. Some of this is due to matchmaker not running - I'm regularly facing some comp unit players, and I am a mid to low tier player, so that's definitely a component.

That said, so much of the scoring is tied to damage. And my average damage is down. Less than half live. Losing something like the 5V's energy quirks isn't worth the faster targeting. I used to be basically bringing a knife to a gun fight by running this mech. Now I'm downgraded to bringing harsh language.

Still seeing dominating games from Cheetahs... more damage than assaults in many games. I don't expect to do that at my skill level in this chasis, but I think every single light chasis would give up all of their "information warfare" to get some firepower. This entire system depends on being able to declare that X firepower = X Information gathering, and that is just simply not the case.

[Vashramire]

It wouldn't surprise me if they reweigh the scoring to award more points for spotting, especially if you are a light. I wouldn't worry about clans right now since a lot of them are pretty broken atm. Clan lights that hit harder than assaults aside, if they balance it right you will be great benefit to your team as a spotter (with a side of lighter damage). There are no weapon quirks so just try and focus on how the mech feels when it's handled. Like are you durable to take a couple hits when scouting or does the movement feel appropriate for the role or does targeting feel out of place? After all this they will get to weapons. Weapon quirks aside, almost all of the quirks are straight buffs to survivability or mobility(which could also be seen as survivability). On top of good spotting/scouting quirks it's not bad. For those that think scouting is running through enemy ranks alone and being that annoying fly like most pugs think they are, you will be disappointed. The Spider actually can now perform better than others at scouting at the cost of some firepower. The problem is it seems like an inflated nerf since all mechs lost weapon quirks. Once they get a baseline of how the mech performs in it's role and they do the weapon balance pass with re-adding some weapon quirks eventually, it should get where it needs to be.

[Domenoth]

I think what Vashramire is saying is exactly how we need to look at it. Russ has said nothing is going live yet. If it never gets better than the current system it will never go live.

[Sezneg]

There is no "getting better" if they are going to consider targeting = firepower.

Good players do not need targeting. They know where to shoot based on vision.

[Domenoth]

Sezneg, on 11 September 2015 - 08:56 PM, said:

There is no "getting better"...

Then there is no release. Nothing you say changes anything I said. Provide your feedback so they can take it into account but don't assume the worst just because of PTS #1. That's all we're saying.

[Vashramire]

Sezneg, on 11 September 2015 - 08:56 PM, said:

There is no "getting better" if they are going to consider targeting = firepower.

Good players do not need targeting. They know where to shoot based on vision.

Vision doesn't tell you the mech you just engaged is nearly legged or almost missing a side torso. I see pugs shooting completely untouched parts of a mech because they won't lock target to see 1 ML to the other side torso would finish them off. Targeting is knowledge and knowledge is power. Blindly shooting unless you have no choice is a waste of firepower and can give the enemy time to retaliate because you fudged up your shot and now he has time to get a read on you and see where you're hurt. I know where to shoot but I want my shots to hit the spots that are hurt the most to increase my efficiency and TTK while also conserving ammo if I'm using any. Also under targeting is just map awareness. Not everyone can call out every mech at once and seeing that you're about to get flanked because it's targeted can save the match.

[Ragnahawk]

Sezneg, on 11 September 2015 - 08:56 PM, said:

There is no "getting better" if they are going to consider targeting = firepower.

Good players do not need targeting. They know where to shoot based on vision.

Vashramire, on 11 September 2015 - 10:51 PM, said:

Vision doesn't tell you the mech you just engaged is nearly legged or almost missing a side torso. I see pugs shooting completely untouched parts of a mech because they won't lock target to see 1 ML to the other side torso would finish them off. Targeting is knowledge and knowledge is power. Blindly shooting unless you have no choice is a waste of firepower and can give the enemy time to retaliate because you fudged up your shot and now he has time to get a read on you and see where you're hurt. I know where to shoot but I want my shots to hit the spots that are hurt the most to increase my efficiency and TTK while also conserving ammo if I'm using any. Also under targeting is just map awareness. Not everyone can call out every mech at once and seeing that you're about to get flanked because it's targeted can save the match.

Bro. You just lied. I CAN TELL. I will find you if I hurt you. Period. Don't tell me this targeting nonsense is where its at. I know better.

[Psiborgz]

Sadly the Spider 5D is still paying for it's dominance 2 years ago. It would seem that they are trying to finally bury the chassis so the Arctic Cheetah will shine all the brighter. I hope I am wrong.

[hero2zero]

I'm pretty sure there is a bug with the anansi - it gets +20 (one +24) internal structure quirks! Alternatively, the bug is with the other variants who did not get anything close (wishful thinking on my part).

[Nightshade24]

Sezneg, on 11 September 2015 - 08:56 PM, said:

There is no "getting better" if they are going to consider targeting = firepower.

Good players do not need targeting. They know where to shoot based on vision.

there is more then just firepower in battletech... ever heard scouting?

On top of that I do not use the quirks to there strength on any spider, I enjoy them as much as I got them on day 1 as I do now

[Sezneg]

Vashramire, on 11 September 2015 - 10:51 PM, said:

Vision doesn't tell you the mech you just engaged is nearly legged or almost missing a side torso. I see pugs shooting completely untouched parts of a mech because they won't lock target to see 1 ML to the other side torso would finish them off. Targeting is knowledge and knowledge is power. Blindly shooting unless you have no choice is a waste of firepower and can give the enemy time to retaliate because you fudged up your shot and now he has time to get a read on you and see where you're hurt. I know where to shoot but I want my shots to hit the spots that are hurt the most to increase my efficiency and TTK while also conserving ammo if I'm using any. Also under targeting is just map awareness. Not everyone can call out every mech at once and seeing that you're about to get flanked because it's targeted can save the match.

Nightshade24, on 12 September 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

there is more then just firepower in battletech... ever heard scouting?

On top of that I do not use the quirks to there strength on any spider, I enjoy them as much as I got them on day 1 as I do now

This is not table top. This is a tactical FPS like counterstrike. Eyeball scouting is sufficient. They can't make this a table top game. A guy really good with an AWP in counterstrike is going to get kills.

People with good eyes, fast mouse reflex and superior range firepower will dominate a shooter. You can't balance away differences in physical capability to play the game.

[Vashramire]

F8Sealed, on 12 September 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

Bro. You just lied. I CAN TELL. I will find you if I hurt you. Period. Don't tell me this targeting nonsense is where its at. I know better.

Ok "bro" . I'm not sure you grasp what was said. So you called me a liar. Good job there. Nice rebuttal complete with caps and bolds to signify rage and immaturity.It's nice that you know where you hurt an enemy but you don't know where your team hurt the enemy all the time especially if you never saw it get hit in the first place. It's a team game. You are not some super mech hero that can carry every match. I bet you're the kind of player that runs off to fight impatiently and gets killed then yells at his team for not supporting you.

I never said targeting was where it's at. Definitely not the end all be all of the game. But it is a vital part. Some very narrow minded people think this game is only weapons. Tactics and information is a part of it. Is the new iteration the best way to handle it? I don't know. But certainly the people that are dumb enough to say "I don't need no stupid sensors, I gots eye in my here brain holder!" doesn't help with any feedback since you can only be pleased with weapons and weapon quirks. So go on super rage warrior with your x-ray eyes and show us all how silly our sensors and team tactics in a multiplayer game are.

[Nightshade24]

Sezneg, on 12 September 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

This is not table top. This is a tactical FPS like counterstrike. Eyeball scouting is sufficient. They can't make this a table top game. A guy really good with an AWP in counterstrike is going to get kills.

People with good eyes, fast mouse reflex and superior range firepower will dominate a shooter. You can't balance away differences in physical capability to play the game.

have fun spraying and praying with LBX 2's I guess?...

[Felio]

The 5V got maneuverability and sensor quirks, but it still only has 2 energy hardpoints in the CT.

If weapon quirks are truly dead, they need to give it torso pitch range quirks (been asking for this forever) and extra structure and still keep its current maneuverability quirks.

[Sezneg]

Felio, on 12 September 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

The 5V got maneuverability and sensor quirks, but it still only has 2 energy hardpoints in the CT.

If weapon quirks are truly dead, they need to give it torso pitch range quirks (been asking for this forever) and extra structure and still keep its current maneuverability quirks.

I asked Paul during the Sean Lang stream what they wanted us to use the 5V for. He said "general Scouting". If I bring this to a match, it's like my team is 11v12. Before I was contributing.

Scouting doesn't exist in this game. The only warsim that does that effectively is World of Tanks/Warships with their inviso-tanks/warships.

[Vashramire]

Sezneg, on 12 September 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

I asked Paul during the Sean Lang stream what they wanted us to use the 5V for. He said "general Scouting". If I bring this to a match, it's like my team is 11v12. Before I was contributing.

Scouting doesn't exist in this game. The only warsim that does that effectively is World of Tanks/Warships with their inviso-tanks/warships.

I believe the goal is for both teams to bring let's say ~2 scouts so then it would be even matches for both. For that to happen though, scouting needs to be important enough to forgo lights with higher firepower or less sensory quirks. As things stand though I don't think the sensor quirk rework is enough for people to want to bring a Locust that's good at scouting over another that just brings raw power and durability. In theory it should work, but as a first pass the numbers are way off in some areas.

[Enduar]

It would be a hilariously boring game if every mech was judged based only on its firepower and combat ability. These MLG Pro CS:GO guys contribute nothing to the discussion when they choose to flagrantly ignore part of the game in leiu of the part they enjoy without attempting to add anything constructive to the discussion.

The discourse of a light scout's role should go hand-in-hand with the balancing of the mechs they're designed to support. Long range targeting for snipers or LRM-based mechs is essentially what we're looking at, here, but this can fluctuate between each mech's specific function using the new sensor system. Don't buff the combat effectiveness of the scout, buff the combat effectiveness of the mech designed to use it as its eyes- if necessary, to the detriment of the mech's individual effectiveness without support.

[Sezneg]

Enduar, on 12 September 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

It would be a hilariously boring game if every mech was judged based only on its firepower and combat ability. These MLG Pro CS:GO guys contribute nothing to the discussion when they choose to flagrantly ignore part of the game in leiu of the part they enjoy without attempting to add anything constructive to the discussion.

The discourse of a light scout's role should go hand-in-hand with the balancing of the mechs they're designed to support. Long range targeting for snipers or LRM-based mechs is essentially what we're looking at, here, but this can fluctuate between each mech's specific function using the new sensor system. Don't buff the combat effectiveness of the scout, buff the combat effectiveness of the mech designed to use it as its eyes- if necessary, to the detriment of the mech's individual effectiveness without support.

Anything that can go fast can scout in this game. Using human eyeball Mark1. The mech that can do that, while also boating firepower = superior.

Because scouting doesn't exist in this game. It exists in World of Tanks, because you literally can't see tanks that you haven't "detected".

I actually think these changes make scouting "worse". Dropping sensor range to fall within weapons range just gets "scouts" shot up. By the time my "scout mech" can target, I'm in range of more than just Gauss/PPC.

Edited by Sezneg, 12 September 2015 - 04:32 PM.

[Domenoth]

Sezneg, on 12 September 2015 - 04:26 PM, said:

I actually think these changes make scouting "worse". Dropping sensor range to fall within weapons range just gets "scouts" shot up. By the time my "scout mech" can target, I'm in range of more than just Gauss/PPC.

I'm confused. What scout Mechs had their sensor range dropped at all?

[Enduar]

Remind me again how any LRM mech relies well on Eyeball MKI best to target their enemies. And we're not talking clan BS that can fight at melee range either. You're ignoring a large part of what is, and what could become the support role these mechs are meant to be- to make someone else significantly deadlier while maintaining stealth and mobility through *useful* game mechanics and balancing.

*Which is the point of these discussions, mind you. You can say it's useless, but you're only being just as useless by contributing nothing to a discussion as to how to make it useful. And no, making everything into some variation of pure combat mech is not a solution.

LRMs are only the easiest and most straightforward example. MWO is shifting towards a more open, dynamic battlefield as seen with these better/bigger maps and scouting will definitely see an increased importance as it further shifts out of your gimpy comfort zone of rubbing paint off on eachother's faces or walking circles around the 80% of donut-shaped maps currently in the game. Look to the future and judge based upon that direction.

Edited by Enduar, 12 September 2015 - 06:56 PM.