33 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

They need to buff the hard points

The 5V could use 2 or 3 more energy points anywhere.
The 5K could use 2 more ballistic points or couple energy points
The 5D could use 2 more energy points
The Anansi could use more of all three.

They all need armor buffs which is way more important than structure buffs.

[Nyuuu]

Vashramire, on 11 September 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

Clan lights that hit harder than assaults aside

I just love this notion, "its clan so it must be op"
If you managed to build an assault with an alpha of <35 and sustained dps of <4,2 you are doing something wrong on a major scale....

[Krivvan]

Sezneg, on 12 September 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

Scouting doesn't exist in this game. The only warsim that does that effectively is World of Tanks/Warships with their inviso-tanks/warships.

Scouting does exist in this game, but it has to be a secondary role for a mech. You cannot have a mech dedicated to scouting. Nowadays scouting is performed by Light mechs that can also fight since they just need to see enemy mechs to scout, they don't need to target anything.

If you make some kind of scout-only mech, then that means your mech's entire role ends once both teams start shooting at each other and you've made your team have to suffer an 11v12 match.

Nyuuu, on 13 September 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

I just love this notion, "its clan so it must be op"
If you managed to build an assault with an alpha of <35 and sustained dps of <4,2 you are doing something wrong on a major scale....

When we're talking Clan alpha, we're talking about alphas of 86+ on a non-crazy build. Those super overquirked IS mechs in the live server were the only things that were on par against the good Clan mechs.

[SilentScreamer]

Krivvan, on 13 September 2015 - 04:39 AM, said:

Scouting does exist in this game, but it has to be a secondary role for a mech. You cannot have a mech dedicated to scouting.

I agree with you that a pure scout mech is bad. However, this is not the live server and weapons quirks are likely to be introduced to the PTS before this goes live. I believe PGI will eventually round out the "scouts".

Quote

When we're talking Clan alpha, we're talking about alphas of 86+ on a non-crazy build. Those super overquirked IS mechs in the live server were the only things that were on par against the good Clan mechs.

Clan v.s. IS balance is not the point of this test. It will be addressed later.


I think the Spider movement quirks should be normalized between the variants to handle similarly. The accelleration quirks (particularly +70% on the 5V) are not the way to go. A spider that does not stay at full speed (except sniper builds) is a dead spider, thus the accelleration buffs will only come into play when the match starts and when landing from a jump. If survivability is truly an issue the structure quirks of the 5D and Anansi are preferable, but unnecessary in my opinion.

I sold my 5V years ago, but looking forward to testing its viability when PTS goes back online.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 13 September 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[Vashramire]

Krivvan, on 13 September 2015 - 04:39 AM, said:

Scouting does exist in this game, but it has to be a secondary role for a mech. You cannot have a mech dedicated to scouting. Nowadays scouting is performed by Light mechs that can also fight since they just need to see enemy mechs to scout, they don't need to target anything.

If you make some kind of scout-only mech, then that means your mech's entire role ends once both teams start shooting at each other and you've made your team have to suffer an 11v12 match.

Well the question is, are they trying to make scouting a primary role (I think they are at least for some) and if they do succeed at it and make it legitimately rewarding to play and do for you team, is that a good thing for the game. It's hard to make a balance where vision trumps power unless you blind everyone but scouts.

What do we want our scouts/lights to do in regards to how we view they should perform in the roles they technically should occupy. I for one am tired of watching those 1 or 2 lights at the beginning of a match just run at the enemy team and die near instantly because they thought they couldn't be hit. That's crappy brawling not scouting and puts your team down a mech in less than a minute. I like when scouts (any 40t and below really) gets some vision so we can at least get a direction of their movement and then engages during a fight appropriately corresponding to their loadout. Lights can tear you up if you are in the middle of an engage with heavier stuff as it should be. You can't scout the whole game because at some time, your team will brawl and fight and you need to help as well. As much as I would like scouting to be important, I don't want it to overwhelm the mech with quirks for it when there will come a point that they will be less useful. Though often who, how, and when a team engages can decide a fight and scouting can help with that but it also comes down to the pilots because I've been flanked bad before and still got out and won the match because the other team couldn't pick wise targets or finish anyone off.

So how much scouting is good scouting. I'm not sure any amount is going to make my Locust feasible. Even with extreme weapon quirks some mechs don't have the punch to make much of a difference when scouting is over and I know that's a weapons pass thing but some mechs just have inferior hardpoints and would need something to bring them up. I personally hated the SDR-5V because of it's hardpoints and got rid of it. Even if it was good at scouting or mobility I wouldn't rebuy it. For me the 5K was safer with ERL even though it did less damage. Getting chased down by like 8 ML Firestarters when I only had 2 lasers was getting old. Even now on PTS I can't say the 5V good or good enough as a stand alone or compared to the other Spiders. As a "general scout" it's still pretty bad personally.

Edited by Vashramire, 13 September 2015 - 08:30 AM.

[Sezneg]

Domenoth, on 12 September 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

I'm confused. What scout Mechs had their sensor range dropped at all?

Sorry if I was not clear. I'm talking about target acquisition delay. In order to use my information warfare powers on a spider 5V, I have to stay in visual contact of an enemy for several seconds. It's no longer instant to acquire doritos/minimap icons of the enemy. That's worse than the "info warfare" I can provide on live, where just peaking against non-ECM mechs will provide my team with the data.

That's 2 more seconds potentially taking fire than on live to do a job this mech is now supposed to be specialized for.

Xetelian, on 12 September 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

They need to buff the hard points

The 5V could use 2 or 3 more energy points anywhere.
The 5K could use 2 more ballistic points or couple energy points
The 5D could use 2 more energy points
The Anansi could use more of all three.

They all need armor buffs which is way more important than structure buffs.

How would the 5K be able to use more ballistic hardpoints? There's just not enough tonnage to make more work. I will say that the PTS 5k is interesting to me because I could see going down on engine size and still keeping about the same agility as on live but getting to play with dual AC2's. Didn't get to try that before the test server went down.

Main thing that's killing me on this... I don't feel like these mechs are good at scouting, or better enough at it to ever take over a similarly fast mech that has weapons.

I shouldn't have target acquisition delay on a mech that is supposed to be a scout. I should get that instantly.

[Leopardo]

Its hard to read for me? coz im spider lover, i loverd 5d before quirkering age and i loved Anansi even after quirks, now its painfully to read this topic. also - i think we dont need to rebalance like in Lore....we need new balance playable for all !!!!! so now im scout - and have no firepower....but i need to get info instantly!!!! and i dont - so its real fail. with skirmish game conception as we have - scouting is secondery !!!!!!!! and i need to boost my power not my sensors!!!! LOOOL stop it plz!

Edited by Leopardo, 14 September 2015 - 05:00 AM.

[Leopardo]

Also - ok if they want to create scouts - ok - creat it - but dont make all lights be same crap!!!!!! lets 1 of shassi will be. give the scout everything to scout then - sensors range + 200%. instant targeting data. target decay 10 sec. improved uavs more then 1. improverd sesmic sensor range +200%. giros. hill climb. atc!!!! everything! if you dont give it fire power!!!!!!!! structure and JJs.
let it be real to do it - or its going to be like we see it - run in th enemy and die there fast - 11\12 then!!!!!!!

[Lord Auriel]

Excuse me but first we should clarify the current meta. Right now, it's "stomp the red robots", and firepower = win.
Naturally, spiders have low firepower (alpha), so they are ******. Before the IS weapon quirks, the anansi was a blast to play but right now, it's too dangerous to get close to anything really. The current meta is mid/ long range lights that use their speed to re-locate constantly. Everything else is too dangerous. Also, ECM does not help against good players. They shoot you regardless because they can SEE you. It doesn't matter if there is a red square around you or not.

With the new balancing system, we will probably see a shift away from high-alpha death matches of doom-robots. How exactly, I don't know, but I'm very curious and excited about it. Actually all the problems started with the arrival of the stupid clan mechs. IS-only MWO was much more pleasant to play and I can only emphasize that the clan mechs are the real problem with the whole balancing issue.

As long as the devs keep looking at metamechs.com and understand how this list is being composed and why the meta is more important than battletech nostalgia, we're going in the right direction. Also, when you look at the new balancing system don't forget that the old maps will be re-touched and in the end we will a lot of awesome maps like the new forest colony. In such an environment, a more information-based system could be absolutely fantastic.. IF it is done right...

[Leopardo]

HMMM okay dude - see this is the question you self answered - they shoot at you no matter ecm or not red square or not - ANANSI was the king, and now if we don't have brawler lights we have - trash. you cant get close to fight. you cant fight - you u r useless for team. and fire power is the key - info light is not the answer....and I don't see how they will balance it))) coz nobody will play trash mechs.

[Surn]

When you play the same 6-10 maps over and over... you dont need scouting.. you know how and where the enemy will engage.

The Info warfare is just another buff to the clans via making them even more invisible. Then their superior alpha and speed can shine.

[Leopardo]

and in the end IS will have 10 mechs - i mean playable mechs - not trash. i dont understand thyer new balancing - less power more info tech...just crazy - will you change 25% targeting speed and radar range for your fire power and quirks? - nobody will. balance with less fire power for IS can be made with more IS mechs like 10x12 but with it we need a game mode with scenario - and in this mode every mech will have its own place and goal.

Edited by Leopardo, 27 September 2015 - 10:22 PM.

[Lord Auriel]

Leopardo, on 27 September 2015 - 10:14 PM, said:

[...]balance with less fire power for IS can be made with more IS mechs like 10x12 but with it we need a game mode with scenario - and in this mode every mech will have its own place and goal.

this

back to spiders: I've played them a LOT and the anansi really was a gem. it was hard to master but extremely rewarding; I never likedthe 5D, the 5K is sort of a "I play it when drunk" thing, and the 5V is just BAAAAD.

What on earth do we need infotech for when all game modes boil down to "meet in D5, kill baddies"? It's a death match, and maybe, maybe a different approach to spotting mechanics is needed (you know, like in AW or WOT), because scouting is just useless. Scouting is like, light mechs sprints around, sees enemy death ball, writes in chat "they at C4", team does whatever, and from that point on, a light mech is useless unlessit can pack a punch and shoot stuff effectively. How would a spider that can't brawl (because 100 alpha doom machines can just one-shot it) do anything useful?

The problemis called power creep, introduced with OP clan mechs and made even worse by giving IS mechs ridiculous weapon quirks.

PS: I have a feeling that might mechs get so little love is that bad players start crying "lights op, pls nerf" when good players in lights own them?

Edited by Lord Auriel, 28 September 2015 - 05:05 AM.

[Leopardo]

tottaly - dont see why i need a INFOTECH - also - i have - the most usefull things - UAV and bingo!- sesmic sensor!!!!! and zoom! also - 150 km speed! so see them go to them drop uav go away - thats all INFOTECH! and i dont need more! also - anasi is brilliant! we need more quirks to it - mostly heat generation quirks!