103 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Mcgral18, on 13 September 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

You'll have to explain the power creep.
Which IS mech will mount more firepower than a StormCrow or TimberWolf?

You don't have to have mechs carrying more firepower than top tier mechs like that in order for there to be power creep though.

Quote

All this does is make mechs more durable, without increasing the power level at all. Big STD engine structure buffs have no real down side (aside from crits)


TTK would rise considerably for STD engine mechs, and XL engined IS mechs will be roughly where Clams are now.

It's still power creep to make mechs more durable, and additionally more mechs would bring XL engines and thus have more firepower as a result of being more durable with engines that should otherwise be more risky to use.

That's why I don't agree with it, and I think it's more sensible to adjust things within the established rules rather than throwing out the 3 engine crits = death rule just because clan engines aren't balanced properly when the proper solution is to balance the clan engines.

[Mcgral18]

Pjwned, on 13 September 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

You don't have to have mechs carrying more firepower than top tier mechs like that in order for there to be power creep though.



It's still power creep to make mechs more durable, and additionally more mechs would bring XL engines and thus have more firepower as a result of being more durable with engines that should otherwise be more risky to use.

That's why I don't agree with it, and I think it's more sensible to adjust things within the established rules rather than throwing out the 3 engine crits = death rule just because clan engines aren't balanced properly when the proper solution is to balance the clan engines.

It is balancing the Clan engine, while also balancing the IS engine.


Both are unbalanced.

[Pjwned]

Mcgral18, on 13 September 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

It is balancing the Clan engine, while also balancing the IS engine.


Both are unbalanced.

Yes, and making them equally unbalanced leads to power creep, and I don't agree with that.

[Livewyr]

Pjwned, on 13 September 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

That's not an excuse for having an engine that saves the maximum amount of weight and has practically no penalty when 20% of it is lost. You can have 1 or the other, not both.

The Shadowcat would disagree... it is entirely hosed by locked gear.

Maximum of 6 hardpoints. (5 if you don't forego the no-brainer ECM) Not enough to use a series of small weapons. (I don't count the possible 7 Ballistic hardpoins, as they are beyond stupid.)
16 tons total podspace (15 if you don't forego the no-brainer ECM) Not enough to use anything larger than a single Large Pulse. (Any more large energy is too hot.)
107 kph (not fast enough for light lag-armor) 117kph for 7 seconds doesn't exactly mean much...
300ish pts of armor (about 20% more than a Jenner) while being twice the size.

(And it's not the only mech screwed by locked gear.. says the Summoner, Ice Ferret, etc..)

Edited by Livewyr, 13 September 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Pjwned]

Livewyr, on 13 September 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

The Shadowcat would disagree... it is entirely hosed by locked gear.

Maximum of 6 hardpoints. (5 if you don't forego the no-brainer ECM) Not enough to use a series of small weapons. (I don't count the possible 7 Ballistic hardpoins, as they are beyond stupid.)
16 tons total podspace (15 if you don't forego the no-brainer ECM) Not enough to use anything larger than a single Large Pulse. (Any more large energy is too hot.)
107 kph (not fast enough for light lag-armor) 117kph for 7 seconds doesn't exactly mean much...
300ish pts of armor (about 20% more than a Jenner) while being twice the size.

(And it's not the only mech screwed by locked gear.. says the Summoner, Ice Ferret, etc..)

What does that have to do with having an unbalanced engine?

Nothing? Okay.

[Livewyr]

Pjwned, on 13 September 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

What does that have to do with having an unbalanced engine?

Nothing? Okay.

Well, yeah.. nothing.

Unless you count that the Engine and Omni pods are *why* (WHY) they have all locked components.

Nothing other than the direct cause.. what can I say?

[Pjwned]

Livewyr, on 13 September 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

Well, yeah.. nothing.

Unless you count that the Engine and Omni pods are *why* (WHY) they have all locked components.

Nothing other than the direct cause.. what can I say?

That's why you get an engine as good as the clan XL at 50% weight savings with only 10 crit slots, that doesn't excuse the practically non-existent penalty when losing 20% of the engine. You can whine and moan about MUH SHADOWCAT or whatever other mediocre mech, doesn't address clan XL engines being unbalanced.

Additionally, fixed equipment/components like MASC being bad or having Ferro Fibrous armor rather than Endo Steel structure can be addressed separately from clan XL engines.

Edited by Pjwned, 13 September 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[FupDup]

Livewyr, on 13 September 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

Well, yeah.. nothing.

Unless you count that the Engine and Omni pods are *why* (WHY) they have all locked components.

Nothing other than the direct cause.. what can I say?

What he's trying to say is that a Shadow Cat with a locked IS XL270, IS Endo, and IS Ferro while using IS guns would be even worse than a Shadow Cat with locked Clan XL270, Clan Endo, and Clan Ferro while using Clan guns.

Locked components are only a weakness when the components you're locked with are sub-par. For example, being locked with a tiny XL180 on a Kit Fox sucks...but the Hellbringer's locked XL325 is great. The Summoner's locked STD structure sucks, but the Timber Wolf's locked Endo Steel is a strength instead of a weakness. Etc.

Also, we're getting Clan Battlemechs eventually (IIC pack).

[Andi Nagasia]

ok so Solution,
IS XL has 3 Engine Crits in its ST, so let IS XL survive ST loss but gains -30%Speed Quirk with ST loss,
Clan XL has 2 Engine Crits in its ST, so Clan XL survives ST loss but with a -20%Speed Quirk with ST loss,
both sides are now Angry at me, but that i feel would help the whole XL engine Issue, (Flame Shield?)

[Livewyr]

I agree that it can have greater penalties for losing the ST, but if they are going to try to make [IS and Clan XLs] equal, clan omnis should be able to adjust their engine ratings.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Clan XL needs to lose speed tweak and and slow you down upon ST loss (say to 2/3 speed).

Why loose speed tweak?

Well, consider the STD engine 4/6 75-85 ton IS mech. Same amount of free tonage for armor and stuff as a clan XL 5/8 mech. However, the 4/6 STD engine IS mech goes 71 kph vs 89 for the clan XL engined mech. Take away tweak from the clan XL mech and he's going 81 kph. That's 10 kph difference instead of 18 helping to reduce the bonus of clan XL over IS XL.

IS XL might need tweaking to give it more maneuverability (accel, decel, turn rate, twist speed etc) and possibly amplify the effects of speed tweak.

[Andi Nagasia]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 13 September 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

Clan XL needs to lose speed tweak and and slow you down upon ST loss (say to 2/3 speed).

Why loose speed tweak?

Well, consider the STD engine 4/6 75-85 ton IS mech. Same amount of free tonage for armor and stuff as a clan XL 5/8 mech. However, the 4/6 STD engine IS mech goes 71 kph vs 89 for the clan XL engined mech. Take away tweak from the clan XL mech and he's going 81 kph. That's 10 kph difference instead of 18 helping to reduce the bonus of clan XL over IS XL.

IS XL might need tweaking to give it more maneuverability (accel, decel, turn rate, twist speed etc) and possibly amplify the effects of speed tweak.

i dont agree, if Clan XL lose speed Tweak and 1/3rd speed thats nearly -40%Speed on ST loss,
that will Kill All Slow Omni Lights(MLX KFX ADR) as well as the NVA and other non Meta Omnis,

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

i dont agree, if Clan XL lose speed Tweak and 1/3rd speed thats nearly -40%Speed on ST loss,
that will Kill All Slow Omni Lights(MLX KFX ADR) as well as the NVA and other non Meta Omnis,

Small quibbles that can be dealt with individually with chassis specific quirks. Far better to balance for the broader case and adjust a few mechs with quirks than to have to buff pretty much everything else.

[Andi Nagasia]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 13 September 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

Small quibbles that can be dealt with individually with chassis specific quirks. Far better to balance for the broader case and adjust a few mechs with quirks than to have to buff pretty much everything else.

i would rather have

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2015 - 05:10 PM, said:

IS XL has 3 Engine Crits in its ST, so let IS XL survive ST loss but gains -30%Speed Quirk with ST loss,
Clan XL has 2 Engine Crits in its ST, so Clan XL survives ST loss but with a -20%Speed Quirk with ST loss,

and having a balance between IS and Clan XL Engines,

then having -40% on Clan ST loss, and see most Clan Mechs as good as dead on ST loss,

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

i would rather have
and having a balance between IS and Clan XL Engines,

then having -40% on Clan ST loss, and see most Clan Mechs as good as dead on ST loss,

You're still leaving clan XL completely superior to IS XL. The goal is to create dynamic balance between the two tech sets.
In essence making them different but roughly equivalent in power when all of their respective advantages and disadvantages are considered.

Now I will admit that a 1/3 decrease in speed after ST loss might be a bit too much. The correct number for balance might be 20% or 10% and more extra heat than right now or something else entirely. However, the clan XL engine cannot be a straight upgrade to a STD engine because clan battlemechs do get to choose between the two.

[Livewyr]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 13 September 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

Clan XL needs to lose speed tweak and and slow you down upon ST loss (say to 2/3 speed).

Why loose speed tweak?

Well, consider the STD engine 4/6 75-85 ton IS mech. Same amount of free tonage for armor and stuff as a clan XL 5/8 mech. However, the 4/6 STD engine IS mech goes 71 kph vs 89 for the clan XL engined mech. Take away tweak from the clan XL mech and he's going 81 kph. That's 10 kph difference instead of 18 helping to reduce the bonus of clan XL over IS XL.

IS XL might need tweaking to give it more maneuverability (accel, decel, turn rate, twist speed etc) and possibly amplify the effects of speed tweak.

1: So, using your numbers: make the IS STD engine nearly as effective as the Clan XL, then give the clan XL a side torso penalty that isn't a risk of the STD engine at all. (Not to mention the 4 saved crit slots.)
One might think you're batting for the I.S...

2: Can't handle the Clans having a light mech with comparable speed?

Edited by Livewyr, 13 September 2015 - 08:31 PM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Livewyr, on 13 September 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

1: So, using your numbers: make the IS STD engine nearly as effective as the Clan XL, then give the clan XL a side torso penalty that isn't a risk of the STD engine at all. (Not to mention the 4 saved crit slots.)
One might think you're batting for the I.S...

2: Can't handle the Clans having a light mech with comparable speed?

I was really trying to suggest the kinds of penalties clan XL should so suffer so it isn't a 100% straight upgrade from a STD engine for clan battlemechs rather than demanding concrete numbers. I also think it's important that clan XL is dynamically balanced against IS XL. So, if IS XL gets to go faster and be more maneuverable but dies after losing a ST that's reasonably balanced against the more durable clan XL.

If you compared the 3 types of engines it'd look something like this

STD engine= most durable, but you go slower, but the penalty isn't too bad if you keep tweak.

Clan XL= Half the weight of an STD engine, but more fragile and losing a ST is now enough of a penalty to make you consider taking a STD engine instead.

IS XL= You float like a firefly and sting like a firebee, but if you lose a ST it's game over.

Basically I'm saying a Clan XL needs to be compromise between the IS XL and the STD engine, so if it's slower than the IS XL and more risky/less durable than the STD engine in exchange for carrying more weapons and going faster.

[Livewyr]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 13 September 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

I was really trying to suggest the kinds of penalties clan XL should so suffer so it isn't a 100% straight upgrade from a STD engine for clan battlemechs rather than demanding concrete numbers. I also think it's important that clan XL is dynamically balanced against IS XL. So, if IS XL gets to go faster and be more maneuverable but dies after losing a ST that's reasonably balanced against the more durable clan XL.

If you compared the 3 types of engines it'd look something like this

STD engine= most durable, but you go slower, but the penalty isn't too bad if you keep tweak.

Clan XL= Half the weight of an STD engine, but more fragile and losing a ST is now enough of a penalty to make you consider taking a STD engine instead.

IS XL= You float like a firefly and sting like a firebee, but if you lose a ST it's game over.

Basically I'm saying a Clan XL needs to be compromise between the IS XL and the STD engine, so if it's slower than the IS XL and more risky/less durable than the STD engine in exchange for carrying more weapons and going faster.

I think the Clan XL ST Loss should definitely have stronger penalties (and hell, I'm Clan) but we cannot endure the penalties being too strong, because we do not have the option of foregoing them...

They are nice, but if you make them deathtraps (or undesirable), we don't have the option of going Standard, nor do we have the option to step them up to increase mobility and reduce the risk of losing a ST.

Edited by Livewyr, 14 September 2015 - 04:12 AM.

[Koshirou]

Volkodav, on 12 September 2015 - 03:10 AM, said:

Not so long ago was a completely opposite situation.

No. The completely opposite situation literally cannot occur.

To explain: The Clans have, since the beginning of this CW phase, conquered four hundred and fifty-six (456) Inner Sphere worlds. There are not that many Clan worlds, so it was quite impossible for this situation to occur. In any event, the maximum number of Clan worlds ever conquered by the IS at any point was about seventeen (17) and just for the record: Only one Clan (SJ) was ever completely reduced to its homeworld.

If the IS factions had started out with as many worlds as the Clan factions, every single one would have been sitting on just their homeworld left for the past several months.

[Lily from animove]

I hate this balance thing, because the system here is borken by the lore.
I would entirely prefer if the IS XL's would stay alove as well when one S breaks, but in counter the IS should get more restricted. max engine sizes to compensate for the fact that clanners can not use other engines than the stock one, and do not have any STD's to use.

maybe allow every IS emch when using its Stock engine size to lose a ST. That woudl be interesting how many IS palyers truly would keep a "superior" Xl on a "inferior" Engine size. because thats what gimps many clanmechs: wrong engine sizes. As much as it makes some clanners too strong: when their clan Xl's are in the nearly perfect size.

if we would intorduce more penalties for clan XL's we would break interchassis balance, because those clanners having the wrong engine sizes get penalised even more than those havign the crrect ones.
Min/maxing is a big issue in MWO, because clanmechs without ES/FS and/or wrong engine sizes will just always be penalised more than those who are the reason why those XL balancings would have happened.

you can not 1:1 balance clan XL vs. IS XL/IS STD because the Omnimech construction rules are what heavily bias and interfere some mechs' balance.
And tbh, I wonder hwo those IIc mechs should work. because the you grant full min/max potential wiht the exchangeable clan XL's THAT is then another imbalancing factor in the system.

Koshirou, on 14 September 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

No. The completely opposite situation literally cannot occur.

To explain: The Clans have, since the beginning of this CW phase, conquered four hundred and fifty-six (456) Inner Sphere worlds. There are not that many Clan worlds, so it was quite impossible for this situation to occur. In any event, the maximum number of Clan worlds ever conquered by the IS at any point was about seventeen (17) and just for the record: Only one Clan (SJ) was ever completely reduced to its homeworld.

If the IS factions had started out with as many worlds as the Clan factions, every single one would have been sitting on just their homeworld left for the past several months.

That is entirely population related, clanners hardly fought against each other, unlike IS.
They are more in numbers and more goal focused.

How does it come, that right after CW and clans came, the IS was owning near all the CW map? At a point where weapons were even more unbalanced and clanners had ALL advantages and IS NOT a single quirk?
Because population is what decides winners in CW, not mech balance.

So stop using CW as a argument, its wrong and totally analysed form the incorrect point of view. your causalities here are totally broken.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 September 2015 - 04:32 AM.