12 replies to this topic

[Alexander Miyamoto]

Maybe i'm just blinded by the many red tags on the IS Chassis and the many... i guess turquois tags on the Clan Chassis, but... aren't Clans "better" than IS from the get go, and the quirks where meant to balance this?

Let's take a look at the 85 Tons (my favorite weight class):
IS ->
BLR: red, all along, with SOME things like yaw, deceleration and acceleration, and 1 chassi with defensive quirks (the one with the least weapons... ok, can take that)
STK: red... pure and simple, with 1 chassi for defense and 1 with accel/decel.. yeah...

Clans ->
WHK: green (yeah, turquois)... maybe 1 red, that's it... oh, and here's the kicker: ALL chassis get 2.5% XP bonus... and defense quirks... and where IS gets +200% Target scan time short range, +33% medium and +20% long range FOR ALL CHASSIS, the WHK gets it for... 1 Chassi, and all others get -%...

So, if i don't get it, could someone PLEASE clarify to me, how this is going to help balance? i mean, was the BLR so much better than the WHK?

EDIT:
I mean, it can't be because of the high weapon hardpoints, can it? if so... seriously?

Edited by Alexander Miyamoto, 12 September 2015 - 06:06 AM.

[SpiralFace]

Ask anyone and they will tell you that High weapon hard points is one of the primary factors in meta mech viability.

its why you never see people complain about timberwolf laser hard points compared to gargogyle hard points despite the fact that their physical placement is at the same height. (just one is more reletive to the cockpit as the other.

This is one of the PRIMARY things that determines what is viable and what is not.

Since everything was said to be broken down into a formula, the big question would be "HOW" valuable is a high mount compared to a low mount?

I think there are some core clan vs IS balance issues beyond just the hard point placement (since most clan mechs actually have lower slung hard points.) But they have said all along that hard point position on a mech IS a factor in how they distribute points. It just now comes down to HOW MUCH is having that high hard point mount worth in comparison to your low slung hard point?

[SpiralFace]

So looking at the mechs in question,

BLR's and STK's both have a BOATLOAD of high mounted hard points. Both in location, and quantity of points.

The warhawk prime on the other hand has only 4 hard energy hard points and a missile hard points (all very low slung.)

They are also wide mounted in addition to the low mounts, where the BLR and banshee points are almost directly on top of one another.

Warhawk is also MUCH more poorly scaled then the other two mechs. As you can see in this chart:


Which you can see it not only is WELL above the curb, but very visibly worse then both the BLR and the WHK.

So when you look at the raw guts of what you can follow that makes a mech viable or not, then the WHK DOES look like it is bellow the curb in every conceivable way with the exception of the fact that it is clan tech.

So I can see the logic behind what might be affecting these numbers, but it does look like they need to go back and re-visit their particular balance in regards to clan tech.

Although I AM also curious how all of this actually plays in the REAL game. I've seen threads for PTS pop up every single minute, but I have yet to find anyone actually in match maker.

Its seeming like more people are playing forum warrior over actually going in and playing the game to see how any of this REALLY shakes up in game.

[Yokaiko]

SpiralFace, on 12 September 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

Ask anyone and they will tell you that High weapon hard points is one of the primary factors in meta mech viability.

its why you never see people complain about timberwolf laser hard points compared to gargogyle hard points despite the fact that their physical placement is at the same height. (just one is more reletive to the cockpit as the other.

This is one of the PRIMARY things that determines what is viable and what is not.

Since everything was said to be broken down into a formula, the big question would be "HOW" valuable is a high mount compared to a low mount?

I think there are some core clan vs IS balance issues beyond just the hard point placement (since most clan mechs actually have lower slung hard points.) But they have said all along that hard point position on a mech IS a factor in how they distribute points. It just now comes down to HOW MUCH is having that high hard point mount worth in comparison to your low slung hard point?

Their formula is a clear case of garbage in garbage out.

Go look at Cataphacts and tell me that makes sense, the JJs on the -3D are worth more than the ECM on the -0X?

Seriously?

Edited by Yokaiko, 12 September 2015 - 06:42 AM.

[Alexander Miyamoto]

I think the biggest problem is the removal of the weapon quirks for IS. I thought (maybe i'm wrong) that the weapon quirks should balance IS Tech vs Clan Tech. Now they are gone.

I personaly love the difference between ER-LLas for IS and Clan... oh, and the LRM issue of "clan can still hit me inside minimal range. Build a clan mech with only LRM and he can damage you at point blank range. ok, not full damage, but hey, a percentage. IS can't, plain and simple. You HAVE to take backup weapons on IS mechs for LRMs. Ok, LRMs are not "meta", but i don't care. the quirks for some mechs with LRMs had helped.

I write this stricktly from a not-competitive point of view.

[SpiralFace]

Yokaiko, on 12 September 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

Their formula is a clear case of garbage in garbage out.

Go look at Cataphacts and tell me that makes sense, the JJs on the -3D are worth more than the ECM on the -0X?

Seriously?

Under the context of this new info warfare package it might be. And that is why this gets tested in the first place, to see where things REALLY land, because you need DATA to actually make up for everything.

Also,

The 3D has more physical hard points, and more importantly, it has 2 high mounted energy slots while the 0XP has nothing but low slung weapons and no JJ's to hill crest.

The 3D ALSO has an additional Weapon slot, which is pretty frickin important now because its the only way to boost your DPS.

I'm sure things need to be tuned, but to say that JJ's aren't a major factor is a bit of a falicy. Both JJ's and high mounts are huge factors in mech's viability, and the 3D has both of them.

It probably does need SOMETHING, but I would hardly say that holding it up against the other cataphracts that it seems to line up pretty well compared to them on account of both the JJ's and the High mounted points that the 0XP doesn't have.

Edited by SpiralFace, 12 September 2015 - 06:56 AM.

[Yokaiko]

SpiralFace, on 12 September 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

Its seeming like more people are playing forum warrior over actually going in and playing the game to see how any of this REALLY shakes up in game.

No one is testing it right now, you can't launch a game.

Alexander Miyamoto, on 12 September 2015 - 06:49 AM, said:

I think the biggest problem is the removal of the weapon quirks for IS. I thought (maybe i'm wrong) that the weapon quirks should balance IS Tech vs Clan Tech. Now they are gone.

I personaly love the difference between ER-LLas for IS and Clan... oh, and the LRM issue of "clan can still hit me inside minimal range. Build a clan mech with only LRM and he can damage you at point blank range. ok, not full damage, but hey, a percentage. IS can't, plain and simple. You HAVE to take backup weapons on IS mechs for LRMs. Ok, LRMs are not "meta", but i don't care. the quirks for some mechs with LRMs had helped.

I write this stricktly from a not-competitive point of view.

You are going to hate the new system then, many mechs take three times as long to lock depending on range, locks are rare.

[Lily from animove]

Yokaiko, on 12 September 2015 - 06:56 AM, said:

No one is testing it right now, you can't launch a game.



You are going to hate the new system then, many mechs take three times as long to lock depending on range, locks are rare.

kinda like free ecm for everoyne, hail non locking direct fire weapons. wohooo.

but seriouly when you mech ahs like 2+ seconds time to even target, people wont bother if the quirks make a 5 secodns or 10 seconds of that. And so the value of balance for too long and very much too long negative quirks gets irreleveant.

[Alexander Miyamoto]

Yokaiko, on 12 September 2015 - 06:56 AM, said:

You are going to hate the new system then, many mechs take three times as long to lock depending on range, locks are rare.

So, technically they killed an entire weapon system. Oh, wait... only for IS. I mean, look at the catapult, THE LRM mech.. only one chassi doesn't have the bad infowarfare quirks, the C1.. the one with only 2 missile hardpoints. so... catapult useless? i mean sure, target retention time is great... weren't there a module, to remove that...

[Yokaiko]

Cats have been essentially useless for a long long time.

They were also the catalysts for a LOT of baindaids. 1) Gauss rifles have reduced internal HP 2)Ghost heat at 2 AC20s (though arguably the Jager had more of a hand here), 3)the K2 STILL has a reduced twist range from the Boomcat days. 4) Missile splash being removed (a player discovered that SRM were doing about three times the damage that was intended due to splash with the A1).

During the Founder challege I loaded up my C1, it was terriblbad, even for an LRM mech it was bad

[Yokaiko]

SpiralFace, on 12 September 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

Under the context of this new info warfare package it might be. And that is why this gets tested in the first place, to see where things REALLY land, because you need DATA to actually make up for everything.

Also,

The 3D has more physical hard points, and more importantly, it has 2 high mounted energy slots while the 0XP has nothing but low slung weapons and no JJ's to hill crest.

The 3D ALSO has an additional Weapon slot, which is pretty frickin important now because its the only way to boost your DPS.

I'm sure things need to be tuned, but to say that JJ's aren't a major factor is a bit of a falicy. Both JJ's and high mounts are huge factors in mech's viability, and the 3D has both of them.

It probably does need SOMETHING, but I would hardly say that holding it up against the other cataphracts that it seems to line up pretty well compared to them on account of both the JJ's and the High mounted points that the 0XP doesn't have.

1) Which popular builds on a -3D use more than 4 weapons?
2) Hoverjets are NOT CLOSE to the value of ECM, either to the mech or the team.

I just watched a guy clean house with a one sided -0XP, to the tune of 6 kills, he brought the game back for 9-6 alone. Lets see a poptart -3D manage that one poking from behind a rock.

Edited by Yokaiko, 12 September 2015 - 07:19 AM.

[Mystere]

SpiralFace, on 12 September 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

Its seeming like more people are playing forum warrior over actually going in and playing the game to see how any of this REALLY shakes up in game.

I have a phrase for you: knee-jerk reaction.

[Yokaiko]

Hard to build any data from the 4 games I managed to get.

Just theory crafting though, no beuno, like I said its the clan invasion all over again.