7 replies to this topic

[LennStar]

The patcher is still downloading the stuff, but I think I can already say from the numbers and feedback here:

The balance based on chassis-sensor quirks with retention and so on is not working. And it definitely does not work damage/CB wise.
So I will propose something I had already written somewhere else (ECM rework thread?)

Make the difference in sensor primarily based on tonnage. (numbers more or less arbitrarily for illustration)

There is a standard sensor range of e.g. 800m like now.

Light mechs get a 50% "size" bonus - with standard sensor they are detected only up to 400m.
Meds have 25% bonus, heavies none.
Assaults have -20% - they can be detected up to 1000m.
(basically the detection range with standard sensors and without quirks is 10m per ton, you can then put a few meter difference on that based on actual look or lore)

Why do it this way?

That makes it possible for lights to scout without ecm.
It compares to visual possiblities and feelings of the player.
It makes flanking/harassing more of a role for lights or a few dedicated mechs, this should increase PUG survivability against this manouvers a bit while keeping it a viable and effective tactic and easier to perform with lights/meds. = less stomps, more difference in fights
It makes assaults easy to target for LRM, making LRMs always viable but also more effective against targets that can sustain longer LRM fire.

After this general change you can add sensor quirks like in lore - Raven gets +50% range for example.

After all that you can quirk for structure, torso twist and HS efficiency to balance the rest of mechs.

ECM very simply works as a modifier to these numbers:
it halves detection range (so a ecm light is undetectable for standard sensor until 200m, the ecm Atals 400m) and doubles any lock-on times.
It also makes TAG and NARC useless for LRM bonuses, but not for general detection. (TAG and NARC make it possible to always lock on, but with the slow times caused by ECM or out of normal sensor range)

Out of sensor range (of players mech) also gives a malus for lock on.

Modules influencing sensors would work like ECM - giving bonuses or maluses. Radar depri could half the time it takes to lose target.

-----
after this is new based on the current try by PGI, because I like the idea of more info warfare
-----

Range of target (info) relay:

Currently a mech 5km away can give you target info, like the location on the minimap/compass.
This gets reworked.
Standard relay range is also 800m and quirks can change that. Raven would be able to give the 5km away target, but not no other mechs. Scout role mechs get bonuses, brawlers would have a penalty in this range, making scouting more important.


CB bonuses for scouts (XP is equivalent)

Currently the CB reward is based on amount and type of damage. We need more rewards for scouting roles. (so additional to existing one-time-scouting bonuses)

For every time a scout locks a mech this is not locked by any other mech and relates that data to another mech he gets 1000CB, once every 10 seconds.
If locked and relayed enemy gets hit by teammate who would not be able to target himself, scout gets 1000CB, once every 10 seconds, if damage exceeds 5dmg.
If scout locks a mech that is not detectable by teammate and that mech is closer then 200m near teammate, scout gets 2000CB.

Edited by LennStar, 12 September 2015 - 11:35 PM.

[ApolloKaras]

LennStar, on 12 September 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

The patcher is still downloading the stuff, but I think I can already say from the numbers and feedback here:

The balance based on chassis-sensor quirks with retention and so on is not working. And it definitely does not work damage/CB wise.
So I will propose something I had already written somewhere else (ECM rework thread?)

Make the difference in sensor primarily based on tonnage. (numbers more or less arbitrarily for illustration)

There is a standard sensor range of e.g. 800m like now.

Light mechs get a 50% "size" bonus - with standard sensor they are detected only up to 400m.
Meds have 25% bonus, heavies none.
Assaults have -20% - they can be detected up to 1000m.

Why do it this way?

That makes it possible for lights to scout without ecm.
It makes assaults easy to target for LRM, making LRMs always viable but also more effective against targets that can sustain longer LRM fire.

After this general change you can add sensor quirks like in lore - Raven gets +50% range for example.

After all that you can quirk for structure, torso twist and HS efficiency to balance the rest of mechs.

ECM very simply works as a modifier to these numbers:
it halves detection range (so a ecm light is undetectable for standard sensor until 200m, the ecm Atals 400m) and doubles any lock-on times.
It also makes TAG and NARC useless for LRM hits, but not for general detection. (TAG and NARC make it possible to always lock on, but with the slow times caused by ECM or out of normal sensor range)

Out of sensor range (of players mech) also gives a malus for lock on.

-----
after this is new based on the current try by PGI, because I like the idea of more info warfare
-----
CB bonuses for scouts (XP is equivalent)

Currently the CB reward is based on amount and type of damage. We need more rewards for scouting roles. (so additional to existing one-time-scouting bonuses)

For every time a scout locks a mech this is not locked by any other mech and relates that data to another mech he gets 1000CB, once every 10 seconds.
If locked and relayed enemy gets hit by teammate who would not be able to target himself, scout gets 1000CB, once every 10 seconds, if damage exceeds 5dmg.
If scout locks a mech that is not detectable by teammate and that mech is closer then 200m near teammate, scout gets 2000CB.

I love this... so much lol.

the range relay - ehhhhhhh not sure yet. I would implement the first part and if they need to do the range relay.

[LennStar]

Saxie, on 12 September 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

I love this... so much lol.

the range relay - ehhhhhhh not sure yet. I would implement the first part and if they need to do the range relay.

hm.. but the more I think about it, the better I like it.

It emphasizes the scout roles AND punishes assaults a bit who go alone, like the unbalanced gauss/ERPPC dire. It also makes for great possibilites of ambushes on the bigger maps in hopefully better game modes in the future.
Also LRM boats may have a big detection range but low transmitting range.

[TheCobra]

LennStar, on 12 September 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

The patcher is still downloading the stuff, but I think I can already say from the numbers and feedback here:

The balance based on chassis-sensor quirks with retention and so on is not working. And it definitely does not work damage/CB wise.
So I will propose something I had already written somewhere else (ECM rework thread?)

Make the difference in sensor primarily based on tonnage. (numbers more or less arbitrarily for illustration)

There is a standard sensor range of e.g. 800m like now.

Light mechs get a 50% "size" bonus - with standard sensor they are detected only up to 400m.
Meds have 25% bonus, heavies none.
Assaults have -20% - they can be detected up to 1000m.

Why do it this way?

That makes it possible for lights to scout without ecm.
It makes assaults easy to target for LRM, making LRMs always viable but also more effective against targets that can sustain longer LRM fire.

After this general change you can add sensor quirks like in lore - Raven gets +50% range for example.

After all that you can quirk for structure, torso twist and HS efficiency to balance the rest of mechs.

ECM very simply works as a modifier to these numbers:
it halves detection range (so a ecm light is undetectable for standard sensor until 200m, the ecm Atals 400m) and doubles any lock-on times.
It also makes TAG and NARC useless for LRM bonuses, but not for general detection. (TAG and NARC make it possible to always lock on, but with the slow times caused by ECM or out of normal sensor range)

Out of sensor range (of players mech) also gives a malus for lock on.

Modules influencing sensors would work like ECM - giving bonuses or maluses. Radar depri could half the time it takes to lose target.

-----
after this is new based on the current try by PGI, because I like the idea of more info warfare
-----

Range of target (info) relay:

Currently a mech 5km away can give you target info, like the location on the minimap/compass.
This gets reworked.
Standard relay range is also 800m and quirks can change that. Raven would be able to give the 5km away target, but not no other mechs. Scout role mechs get bonuses, brawlers would have a penalty in this range, making scouting more important.


CB bonuses for scouts (XP is equivalent)

Currently the CB reward is based on amount and type of damage. We need more rewards for scouting roles. (so additional to existing one-time-scouting bonuses)

For every time a scout locks a mech this is not locked by any other mech and relates that data to another mech he gets 1000CB, once every 10 seconds.
If locked and relayed enemy gets hit by teammate who would not be able to target himself, scout gets 1000CB, once every 10 seconds, if damage exceeds 5dmg.
If scout locks a mech that is not detectable by teammate and that mech is closer then 200m near teammate, scout gets 2000CB.

[ApolloKaras]

I love how constructive posts find the way to the bottom lol.

[Lily from animove]

5km? which game is this?

also eyeballs, sensors are important for lock on weapons and newbies without cooms not communicating via voip. For all other trained groups sharing targets is a matter of your personal sensr slots called, left eyeball, right eyeball and shared by your mouth.

The entire informational warfare does not help much in MWO, because maps would need to be like 20km * 20km where lights go out and seek the opponents to probably reveal their locatrtion and destination so that the bigger boys follow up. But thsi entirely lacks in MWO. except mybe under night conditions where vision is limted, but then just camp a location of gneral limited line of sights and be fine.

The current MWO has only a minor place for information warfare influencing the outcome of a battle.

Edited by Lily from animove, 12 September 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[Lokust]

OP has some of the best game design ideas ever seen for this game

[LennStar]

Lily from animove, on 12 September 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

also eyeballs,

The entire informational warfare does not help much in MWO, because maps would need to be like 20km * 20km where lights go out and seek the opponents to probably reveal their locatrtion and destination so that the bigger boys follow up. But thsi entirely lacks in MWO. except mybe under night conditions where vision is limted, but then just camp a location of gneral limited line of sights and be fine.

There are 3 maps in the game that are (albeit barely) big enough for info warfare, and the reason they are that only barely is design. They are intentionally made so that scouts dont have to run and search.
The eyeball is only a problem because now every mech gets detected (without ECM) if he enters 800m. If you really want to value the eyeball problem, take ECM mechs. You can often go round enemies in plain sight (on water) if you have ECM and are farer away then 400m, so a glance does not reveal you.

Quote

sensors are important for lock on weapons and newbies without cooms not communicating via voip. For all other trained groups sharing targets is a matter of your personal sensr slots called, left eyeball, right eyeball and shared by your mouth.

Also you are lumping together 2 groups of players: The main crowd of PUGs, who use a variety of mechs but not VoiP in any meaningful amount (not even chat) and sometimes I think not even the minimap.
For those info warfare means less LRM spam, These group will also either not change their behavior or learn to work together more because of info warfare. That needs to be seen.

The second group is the "competitive" crowd, who does what you said, but only uses meta build meta mechs. For them info warfare would not change much (as worst case), probably some of the mechs they use. Or it maybe that the whole game changes (which needs a lot of work done over at least a year) so that info warfare is part of CW for example and then they also have positive results from this change.

Quote

The current MWO has only a minor place for information warfare influencing the outcome of a battle.

And that is the point. I think you are viewing it from the wrong angle. You see current MWO and think "that design is bad for info warfare".
You are right.
But you can change design so that info warfare becomes more important, more rewarding and more viable.
And that is what PGI is trying.