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Homeless Bill's Iw Solution: Progressive Scanning


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#1 Homeless Bill

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 03:02 AM

Author’s Notes: There is a bold TL;DR for each section and an all-encompassing one at the bottom as a courtesy to those of you who aren't interested in my seemingly endless drivel. The term “doritos" is referring to the red, triangular targeting markers that appear above 'mechs that can be targeted. And what kind of ******* jams his name in the title? The kind that hopes his shred of internet fame will be click-baity enough to cut through some of the noise since I actually think this is a pretty sweet idea.

The rebalancing effort has a lot of facets, but today I want to address one specific cornerstone that should be solid so that other things can fall into place: information warfare. Scouts have begged for a true reconnaissance role since this game’s inception, MechWarrior is a natural fit for interesting sensor mechanics, and since infotech is one of the four, new ‘mech-balancing pillars, I figure it should be appropriately useful.




The Problem

Let's face it: scouting is largely unimportant in MechWarrior: Online. I see blame placed on a myriad of imperfect but ultimately innocent factors - the map size, the long-range trading, the lackluster earnings, and the fact that there's no way to call a target in PUG games while you don't even need a lock to do so effectively on TeamSpeak. And though they all contribute, they aren't the main issue.

The core problem is that information frankly has very little value in this game. As long as you know where the biggest enemy blob is, you're set. The primary advantage of having a lock is being able to quickly identify weak components, but that's hardly comparable to the other three pillars: firepower, survivability, and mobility. And sure, locks for LRMs are great, but should indirect fire really be integral to the value of information warfare?

Moreover, ECM has been brokenly overpowered for so long that good players are used to fighting without a readout. Nowhere is the absence of information warfare more apparent than the competitive scene - the styles of trading and pushing makes exact hit location largely irrelevant, and even without a paper doll, top players can often identify weaknesses based on what they've been hitting.

While I didn't get a chance to play the public test, I did see the dorito delay change and extended lock times. I won't comment except to say they're just turning ***** that barely matter in the grand scheme of things. What we need is not a change to how information is acquired, but a mechanic that gives scouting a purpose beyond finding the blob - something that makes reconnaissance a valuable asset throughout the entire battle, even at competitive levels of play.

TL:DR: Information doesn’t really matter that much currently, and tweaking values affecting how it’s acquired ignores that fundamental lack of utility.




The Solution

With that goal in mind, I present to you the concept of Progressive Scanning. The idea is that a 'mech could be scanned throughout the course of a battle by being targeted. The accumulated target lock duration would unlock progressively more useful advantages against that particular 'mech for the rest of the round, making scouting invaluable at all stages of an engagement.

Each mech would have a Scanned status from 0-100% (as an initial guess for balance, 1% would take between 1 and 2 seconds; therefore, it would take between 100 and 200 seconds of being targeted by a single 'mech to be fully scanned, depending on the ‘mech being scanned and the one doing the scanning). The first few tiers of would reveal what it does now - the chassis information, paper doll, and equipment readout. But instead of that being the end of the process, those would be the first of many bonuses.]

The longer a 'mech is targeted by your team members, the more advantages are unlocked. C-Bills would be awarded for every second of scanning and every advantage unlocked. Multiple 'mechs could scan a single target simultaneously to speed up the process, but only active locks would count - locks gained through sharing target information would have no effect. The scan rate and the scan threshold could then be adjusted per ‘mech to create diversity including superior scouts or variants that specialize in being sneaky by taking longer to scan.

Below is my initial list of advantages would be gained through scanning, although obviously the values would likely need adjustments and the bonuses are entirely interchangeable, removable, and replaceable. Some may think the later tiers go too far, but I’m all for serious infotech.

Scan Levels:
  • 3% - Chassis Info / Target Designation - Like now, chassis / variant information and target designation would be shown first; unlike now, that information would also be displayed on the scoreboard for easy access.
  • 5% - Paper Doll and Health Percentage - Same as now and self-explanatory.
  • 8% - Weapons and Equipment Readout - Same as now and self-explanatory.
  • 10% - Targeting Info Sharing - I make a case for this below, but targeting information sharing - even target marker doritos - should be tied into this system to encourage scouting and revitalize stealthy play,
  • 15% - Decreased Targeting Time - Halves the delay for Paper Doll and Equipment Readout displays.
  • 20% - Increased Target Decay - Adds an additional second or two before targeting locks are broken.
  • 30% - Increased Sensor Visibility Range - Adds an additional 200m to the distance at which the ‘mech can be targeted.
  • 40% - Health Percentage on Scoreboard - A constant health percentage display on the scoreboard, particularly combined with chassis information, would be invaluable in knowing what’s weak and what’s fresh.
  • 50% - Not Hidden by ECM - It would be awesome if a concerted scouting effort nullified ECM’s cloaking effect on a particular ‘mech. To clarify, if it was an ECM-equipped ‘mech, the ECM would still cloak its teammates but not itself.
  • 60% - Decreased Missile Lock Time - I went light on LRM buffs, but rapid locks for missiles is a no-brainer for heavily scouted targets.
  • 70% - Instant Targeting Time - Paper Doll and Equipment Readout would be instant.
  • 80% - Permanently on Radar - Like the wallhack Seismic Sensor of old days but better, this would effectively put an end to any sneaky maneuver a ‘mech tried to make. Being scanned for an extended period should confer an appropriately hefty advantage.
  • 100% - Permanent Targeting Marker - Taking it one step further, having the dorito always visible means you always know where that ‘mech is in 3D space.
Other Possibilities:
  • Decreased Missile Spread - Another LRM buff that could make sense, but I prefer lock time.
  • Increased Missile Speed - Same.
  • Target Outline / Highlight - Adding a highlight, outline, or some other visibility queue would make trading on foggy maps a lot easier.
  • Increased Damage Taken - This is something I knew would be controversial and isn’t my cup of tea, but you could quite literally just buff damage taken at a certain point so that scouts very much mirror support classes from other online games.
  • Permanently Targetable - I thought this would be way too overpowered, but it remains on the honorable mentions list to make the point that you could easily make infotech as serious as firepower, survivability, and mobility.



This is a simple, scalable solution that basically amounts to a single number being incremented for each 'mech. There's no need to implement all the tiers at once, either; starting with four or five advantages and gradually adding more is still far preferable to the status quo in which nothing matters.

Though you may have noticed in the list above, it deserves its own, special mention: I strongly believe target information sharing should tie directly into this system, meaning even targeting doritos wouldn't be shared until 'mechs are scanned for a certain period of time. The move to 12v12 killed flanking and sneaky tactics; too many eyes and instant sharing make it nearly impossible to get around behind without most of the enemy team knowing. Requiring some level of scanning in order to share targeting information not only makes scouting critically important, but it also allows for interesting maneuvers early on in the game (or even later if you've wisely kept a couple of your pilots hidden).

TL;DR: Link the total amount of time a ‘mech has been locked (“scanned”) throughout the match to progressively more powerful bonuses such as lock time reduction, increased target decay, ECM cancellation, missile buffs, always-visible health percentages, and even permanent map markers.




The Caveats

ECM Counters

Even at a reduced 90m radius, the emphasis on information denial resulting from this plan may cause ECM to be doubly important. If that becomes the case, the simple solution is to extend the range of BAP and ECM’s jamming effects to 300-500m and/or make a single BAP counter all ECM in its radius instead of just one. Scouts shouldn’t have to get dangerously close to do their job and terrible quirks are not a good way to balance out ECM’s utility.

Radar Deprivation

It’s broken, and PGI should fix it. It’s hopelessly overpowered, I don’t know why it’s still the way it is, but it can’t do what it does now if information warfare is going to be a serious endeavor. It should decrease target decay by a fixed amount - not totally nullify everything. I could write a couple paragraphs on this, but do I really need to prattle on about something so painfully obvious?

PTS Dorito Delay

There’s a case to be made one way or the other on its own, but the dorito delay would not synergize well with what I’m proposing. Delaying scanning for several seconds would defeat the entire purpose, and enemies should be instantly targetable with line-of-sight like it is now.

TL;DR: Fix Radar Deprivation, get rid of the dorito delay from the PTS, and prepare to buff counters to ECM if necessary.




The Benefits

Scouting as a Serious Role

This system would make continual reconnaissance valuable. Firepower is always an asset, tanking is often an invaluable service to the team, mobility is life for many 'mechs, but information has always been a tertiary concern. By applying progressively better buffs, scouts can finally feel like they're functioning in a non-combat role with immense utility.

Rewards Equalization

Reconnaissance and other non-combat activities have gotten the shaft in terms of earnings, and perhaps rightfully so considering it’s unwise to encourage unhelpful behavior. But with scanning providing serious buffs, it would finally be sensible and easy to implement paycheck parity.

Competitive Play

I still expect less emphasis on information at higher levels of organized play, but if target sharing, seeing health percentages, ECM exclusion, permanent radar markers, and even permanent doritos were tied to scouting, you'd see a hell of a lot more of it than you do now.

PvE Applicability

Some people have wanted to run recon for as long as this game has been around, and that passion will undoubtedly carry over to campaign scenarios. This system would translate well into that environment, and it would be simple to swap out any advantages that don't have the same potency against AI opponents.

Strategic Scouting

In addition to giving purpose to reconnaissance, it would also add depth to the strategic considerations. With limited time and 12 ‘mechs to scout, maybe it’s best to get enough information to share targeting data on all enemies, or maybe some will prefer to aggressively scan three or four high-priority threats to minimize their effectiveness and finish them off quickly.

Simple but Powerful Balance

Having an adjustable scanning rate and threshold for each ‘mech would give PGI two simple, easily-explainable variables to balance information warfare. ‘Mechs meant to be scouts would be quicker at scanning than others, and stealth-oriented ‘mechs would take longer to scan than their less subtle, more deadly, and more heavily armored counterparts. It would even be an interesting way to help balance Clan vs IS technology. Clanners were notorious for straight-up engagements and a lack of subtlety while the Inner Sphere only ever won with superior tactics; giving IS ‘mechs an edge in infotech would help balance the scales in a lore-friendly manner that preserves diversity.

Simplification or Synergy

This proposal gives PGI a lot of choices about what to do with the rest of information warfare. They could get rid of variable target information gathering rates at different ranges, or they could integrate range into the scanning mechanic. They could forgo different sensor ranges for different ‘mechs for ease-of-understanding, or they could layer that on top to create even more depth. This system provides enough of a solid foundation that it could stand alone or be complemented by any number of modifiers. While I personally lean towards the keep-it-simple camp, it certainly doesn’t box them in.

TL;DR: Just read the bold headings above and pass on the paragraphs.




The Alternatives

Below, I will briefly address the vast majority of other suggestions I’ve seen flying around.

”Maps Suck and They Should Be Bigger”

Some of you need to wake the hell up out of your nostalgia-induced BattleTech coma and realize this is an arena shooter. "Wouldn't it be great if we had crazy huge maps where scouting mattered?" No. ****. It takes three minutes to walk to the fight on some maps now. I'm not interested in a damn walking simulator, and neither are potential new players. Furthermore, it would only delay the inevitable - teams facing massive maps would be doubly eager to get to the middle to ensure a fight rather than an endless runaround. On top of that, it still means scouting only has very basic, early-game utility. And what's the solution to this "problem"? Fix every map? Give me a break. This is a dumb talking point and needs to die.

”Increase / Decrease Sensor Range / Lock Time / Decay or Implement Real Radar”

All of these solutions ignore the fundamental problem that information, no matter how hard or easy it is to acquire, simply isn't worth anything at the moment. Whether you're getting 10 or 10000 Zimbabwean dollars doesn't matter when you realize both are equivalent to less than a penny.

”Convergence Only when Locked”

It’s not a bad idea, but while it would certainly make locks important, it’s a very boolean approach. Much like Ghost Heat’s implementation, it’s all or nothing based on how competent your scouts are. There’s far less strategic depth or choice than a gradual scale would provide.

TL;DR: The alternatives either ignore the real problem by playing with meaningless values or address scouting’s underlying lack of utility in an all-or-nothing way that misses out on strategic depth.




The TL;DR

All of the fiddling with ranges and lock times and decay rates ignores the fundamental problem of information warfare as it stands today: information just isn’t that valuable. Rather than focusing on how information is acquired, I propose increasing the benefit of reconnaissance by causing the accumulated time a ‘mech has been targeted to unlock progressively more powerful buffs against that ‘mech.

By tethering target information sharing, scoreboard chassis and health percentage displays, target acquisition time and decay, lock-on-weapon buffs, permanent map markers, and/or other bonuses to scanning enemy ‘mechs, reconnaissance would finally have undeniable value in all stages of an engagement.

This solution would turn scouting into a useful non-combat role - even at competitive levels of play, add strategic depth (whether to scout all ‘mechs enough to share basic info or race to some of the late-tier buffs on high-priority threats), equalize XP rewards and C-Bill earnings, and give PGI a simple tool to balance the infotech aspect of battlemechs.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 15 September 2015 - 03:10 AM.


#2 Sundervine

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 03:36 AM

I agree, someone said on a different thread, that there will be no meta mech because they will all be the same. Well the Meta will be whatever the most effective mech is that has the most movement buffs, and the least targeting buffs. There will be a meta mech in each class, and it will be the one with the least sensor buffs.

reason being, since clans its been sweep the legs, after this, sweep all the legs. Noone needs no info! just sweep the legs!

#3 Mechronomicon

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 03:59 AM

The problem with Info Warfare will definitely only be solved by restructuring rather than re-quirking. It's sort of an inconvenient truth for the 'four pillars' system that one pillar is mostly cosmetic and won't bear much weight.

So far, this is the best idea I've seen for adding value and advantage to information. Thanks for the well thought out write-up.

#4 El Bandito

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 04:17 AM

Maybe when scanned enough, it will also show where the ammo is stored in that mech? :P

Or maybe all attacks will have increased crit chance on internal components?

Edited by El Bandito, 15 September 2015 - 04:18 AM.


#5 Gnume

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 04:26 AM

Any consideration for a Mech to know they are being actively scanned? An Active Scan vs. Passive Scan type mode? Does the Actively scanning mech stand-out somehow compared to a passively scanning mech?

#6 kapusta11

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 04:32 AM

Who cares about locks and paper doll info? Why bother? Is there nothing else to fix?

#7 Sjorpha

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 04:44 AM

I think this is a fantastic idea and I encourage that we as a community rally behind it and push it to PGI.

A thousand thumbs up.

#8 Peter2k

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 04:50 AM

View PostHomeless Bill, on 15 September 2015 - 03:02 AM, said:

Wall of text from someone who actually thought about balancing



keeping it short, I like it
if well executed without rough edges could give meaning to information warfare


View Postkapusta11, on 15 September 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

Who cares about locks and paper doll info? Why bother? Is there nothing else to fix?


it's a balancing thing

balance needs definitely fixing
and instead of creating a flawed system that no one likes (hey ghost heat)
or creating a myriad of variables that needs to be constantly retouched and tuned (hey hey quirks),rather work something out for the long haul
is there any reason why anyone would take something smaller than a heavy, except PGI says so (3/3/3/3 rule) or they just outright love a light or medium ?
considering from the % in heavy, I guess most don't like the lighter classes

also trying to scout out high priority targets might be valuable on the higher scanned ranges

#9 Naduk

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 05:03 AM

i like it
i think 80% and 100% should be 2mins not permanent
could really enhance those super epic games that come down to the last two mechs and then, he vanishes from sensors

swap 8% and 5% , weapon details seems like it would be easier for the computer to figure out vs a full damage read out

i agree 10000% with the Radar derp situation
i have no idea how it was even aloud into the game with its instant break, it should never of been more than the opposite of the target retention module

also have you considered a way to reset your current scan download ?

#10 Karl Streiger

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 05:39 AM

Its a nice post and i did love to read it - but i still can't identify anything that would make a scout more useful rather than to have 2 AC 20s in your drop deck.

Maybe the damage dealt towards a ~80% scanned target should be increased (based on the assumption that the sensors were able to identify shot traps)

only reason for real scouting is still a rework of those maps including multiple victory conditions that make it necessary to split your forces - and instead of running blind into the enemy blob you have to know - which objective is defended by what - and split your forces accordingly

#11 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 05:44 AM

Pretty spot on there.

With regards to Radar dep module..

I've always thought it should be a benefit of ECM, and yep, requires ECm to function completely differently than what we have now.
Problem is PGI isn't going to reimburse everyone for their 20+ radar dep modules at 6 mill a pop, so what to do with it?

#12 jay35

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 05:50 AM

This idea would create a sort of minigame within MWO matches that would encourage the concept of scouting and reward it, which is awesome.

I would say the penalties listed for 50%-100% are a bit too strong. If we took the eight penalties listed from 0%-40% and spread them out (so one triggered every 11%), it would still be a worthwhile and useful construct without being overbearing.

To have all of those penalties applied to a mech that's already been in enemy LoS for that amount of time, meaning it is surely been taking significant incoming fire and is probably heavily damaged by that point, would only add insult to injury and player frustration.

The rest of it is an exciting change of pace. Now if only PGI could get its balance sorted out first, and then add cool features like this as part of a proper roles-warfare concept tied in with game mode changes and a Skills tab replaced with actual Roles selection... rather than PGI trying to force individual variants into categories they choose for it instead of players being able to configure any variant for whatever role they feel like.

Edited by jay35, 15 September 2015 - 05:52 AM.


#13 FlipOver

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 05:56 AM

I have to say I like the idea, makes sense and would help in the short term to really have a need for scouts.

BBut I have to say something about the maps...

View PostHomeless Bill, on 15 September 2015 - 03:02 AM, said:

<snip>

”Maps Suck and They Should Be Bigger”

Some of you need to wake the hell up out of your nostalgia-induced BattleTech coma and realize this is an arena shooter. "Wouldn't it be great if we had crazy huge maps where scouting mattered?" No. ****. It takes three minutes to walk to the fight on some maps now. I'm not interested in a damn walking simulator, and neither are potential new players. Furthermore, it would only delay the inevitable - teams facing massive maps would be doubly eager to get to the middle to ensure a fight rather than an endless runaround. On top of that, it still means scouting only has very basic, early-game utility. And what's the solution to this "problem"? Fix every map? Give me a break. This is a dumb talking point and needs to die.

I do believe larger maps are needed.

Takes 3 minutes to walk into a fight... hmmm and that's a problem, how?

Currently there are maps where in less than 30 seconds you can spot the enemy, their numbers and direction. Isn't this one way of invalidating scouting if any other mech in the right position can spot the enemy across the map?

Teams eager to go to the middle to fight. In a larger map, going for the middle would mean to be too far ahead of your team for any sort of support. The possibility to get slaughtered once they get there would be enough for people to learn (that if you are not a scout) to move in a group, not alone.

Also, what you call endless runaround, I call tactical movement and possibilities, which for now, we are short of due to map size, easily spotting of enemies (not locking) from the beginning of the match is something that needs to go!

So yes, I'm one of those comatose nostalgia-induced BattleTech fans who never played any other MW title and all I see is the limitations the size of the maps is bringing to the table.

To me, should take a scout no less than 2 minutes to find (spot) the first enemy mech.
It should take over 4 minutes for any mech going <90 kph to read the middle of the map.

As a sim fan, I'd rather have longer match times (from 15 to 30 or more) and really see some different approaches than run to where you know the enemy is likely to be headed without any care or concern, because the team will not be far behind, seen as the maps are so short.

Of course, I'm not saying the map sizes are the main problem, but they are part of it.

I agree with all the rest on your post!

#14 FupDup

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 06:00 AM

Posted Image

#15 Naduk

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 06:03 AM

ya know what else needs to be on this list
if you stand still for more than 5mins your dorito shows up permanently until you move
this way teams wont have to call out afk players

#16 Hans Von Lohman

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 06:04 AM

Other things to add here.

1. Wanderer's idea for weapon convergence to be tied to having a lock-on. No lock-on, no convergence.
2. Having 2+ mechs target somebody should NOT speed up the rate of progress of that list of "bad stuff" that happens to him. I don't want to promote even more focus firing on one enemy because he is the one that is getting scanned.
3. Scout mechs are an exception to #2 because they have scout sensors. They do speed up the process. Not a lot, just a little bit.

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 15 September 2015 - 07:00 AM.


#17 Nerdboard

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 06:09 AM

This is a really good idea. I would love to see this implemented in some variation into the game and it seems more useful than the sensor/target quirks implemented on the PTS so far. I hope PGI picks up on this.

#18 LordNothing

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 06:14 AM

your tldr was tldr

#19 Kamikaze Viking

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 06:16 AM

Homeless Bill for President!!?!?1!1!1

But seriously this is a great idea.

Well thought out and explained the conditions and concerns, the interaction with other aspects of the game and how it helps fix multiple problems.


The only thing I would add to it might be that the proposed scanning % drops Very slowly over time when hidden. But anyone who is trading shots isn't hiding for long enough for it to start to drop.

#20 Mcgral18

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 06:19 AM

Honestly, I don't like it. A 1KM BAP bubble would be horrendous.
The previous 720M one also took flak. The current 480M is adequate for cancelling ECM.
I've always been a fan of letting Active Probes let you target through walls within a small radius. The stock 150M radius would be a nice place to test it, perhaps extended if that's insufficient. Tie that in with your proposal, (and targeting through ECM) and it makes AP a useful scouting tool for some.


Now, for personal locks (including adding to your timer) I could support, but 1KM ECM cancelling bubble? Nope.

The 3 minutes for total lock is also quite long, when your average match length is 5 minutes, and the stomps being 3.


Nay to missile damage or speed increases (it's just weird) as a lock bonus (but as a general blanket buff, that's fine). Lock time is reasonable. LoS required, or indirect as well? TAG and Artemis reductions stack for 25% lock time (both halve), so if this also stacks (at the typical half) it would be a pretty impressive 77.5% lock time reduction.

Radar Derp doesn't entirely nullify locks; it cancels the stock 2 second lock duration. As such, the ATD would still net you a 1.5s lock time. It is likely broken, still.
If targetting/scouting extended this lock duration, you could start to nullify Radar Derp (as soon as you reach +2 to target retention).

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 September 2015 - 06:20 AM.






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