22 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Way, way back, MWO in beta had a very simplified overheat system.

You went over X% on the heat bar, ammo exploded. Over 100%, you melted. It was a placeholder, basically.

With a few bits (ghost heat, notably,and changes to prevent easy-booms of ammo) tacked on, MWO cruised along to the modern day. The placeholder system, missing the critical parts needed to actually make heat matter in anything less than total Dire Wolf Death Star situations.

This has led, in part to the massive laser/PPC banks of utter destruction (and it's cousins the AC/20 duo-o-doom, etc. etc.). Why? The actual prices for overheating a 'Mech never got put into the game, only the "good enough" mechanic we have today. Other kludges like ghost heat (which punished boating only because it shoved people towards 100%+ overheat faster) were glued on over it in an even uglier, inelegant attempt at balance.

This isn't insanely difficult to fix- clearly the game tracks overheat % as it stands, and all that needs be done is adding appropriate effects. We can translate decently from the 0-30 heat scale in tabletop- 1 overheat in TT is basically 3.33% (repeating) in MWO heatbar.

17% overheat = 'Mech temporarily acts as if it's got an engine rating of (normal engine - 'Mech tonnage), meaning it loses the appropriate speed and agility. Jump jets are NOT changed by overheat, giving you a reason to use them for an escape after heating yourself into slowpoke mode.
27% overheat = 'Mech gains a very modest cone-of-fire effect (crosshair visibly expands slightly). LRM spread increases slightly.
33% overheat = As 17%, only (normal engine - 2x 'Mech tonnage).
43% overheat = COF expands, LRM spread increases.
50% overheat = As 17% only (normal engine -3x 'Mech tonnage).
57% overheat = COF expands again, LRM spread increases again.
63% overheat = ammo damage of .1 per tic, randomly applied to a single ammo section per tic.
67% overheat = as 17%, only (normal engine -4x 'Mech tonnage).
77% overheat = ammo damage of .2 per tic instead of .1, randomly applied to a single ammo section per tic.
80% overheat = COF expands even further, LRM spread increase.
83% overheat = As 17% only (normal engine -5x 'Mech tonnage).
93% overheat = ammo damage of .3 per tic instead of .1, randomly applied as before.
100% overheat = autoshutdown unless override
100%+ overheat = 'Mech damage as per normal MWO rules.

I'd suggest movement reduction caps at the "one legged 'Mech being hit" speeds and agility at the equivalent of the 'Mech's tonnage in engine rating (to see it in action, slap a 100 rated engine in a 100-ton 'Mech).

With this, heatloading your 'Mech carries offensive and defensive penalties- even a "I'm only needing to fire once" boater will have to deal with sluggish movement and people riding the heat curve while firing will lose accuracy as they raise their heat level until they let the 'Mech cool down.

Lighter 'Mechs may peak in heat faster but still retain mobility, while heavier 'Mechs will keep a sharper eye on the bar (but be generally able to sink more heat) to avoid going full-on into slug mode.

In other words, you'll actually have to pay attention and there's a price for those immense, 'Mech-coring beamstrikes.

Once a real heat system is in? Kick ghost heat to the curb and re-examine the pile of "fixes" we've awkwardly had placed in MWO.

Edited by wanderer, 10 September 2015 - 12:50 PM.

[Poisoner]

No, horrible idea and would probably make the new player experience even worse.

[wanderer]

How does "making massive alphas be a bad idea" ruin the new player experience?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I could get on board if penalties started off at 50%. Having them start at 17% is FAR too low.

[Igor Kozyrev]

Cone of fire you say? Never gonna happen.

[Poisoner]

wanderer, on 10 September 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

How does "making massive alphas be a bad idea" ruin the new player experience?

Low heat scale with bad trial mechs without double basics makes for a really hot mech.

[Skarlock]

I'm fine with this. I hope they implement it exactly as you suggested so I can just run triple gauss on a dire wolf or 4 uac/5s with extra heat sinks and obliterate everyone. The game would be much simpler because there would only be two viable assault builds, and anything that doesn't run gauss or dakka would be invalidated. I especially like how light mechs would be completely invalidated with your suggestion as they'd start hurting themselves after 1 alpha, so there wouldn't be anything capable of being a legitimate threat to my triple gauss assault other than another triple gauss or UAC assault. Granted, this would completely destroy weapon variety and obliterate the viability of an entire weight class instead of encouraging it, but whatever. Glad you put a lot of thought into your post and took the time to flesh it out and balance it properly across all weight and weapon classes. This shows you have a really deep understanding of the game and the consequences of making changes like this.

[wanderer]

Trial 'Mechs without doubles are garbage to begin with, part of the reason why the playerbase howled bloody murder about making them not missing something so critical (and nowadays, they don't). Bonus: We can make Trials in whatever config we like, including more extra-heat-friendly configurations.

Quote

I could get on board if penalties started off at 50%. Having them start at 17% is FAR too low.

Cut the total penalty down, then. What would be a good maximum engine penalty? Mech tonnage x4?, x3? Spread that by fifths across the overheat scale.

Quote

Cone of fire you say? Never gonna happen.

Then there's nothing that will ever stop the PPFLD vomit from remaining the only viable style in the game, unless something mitigates the point-click-obliterate mechanic we have now. Putting it in as part of an overheat system is actually similar to games like Counterstrike, where maximum firepower rapidly reduces accuracy. A laservomit would start on-target and start to drift as heat levels increased from the lasers. PPCs would fire and either need to wait for cooldown to be fully accurate or deal with lower accuracy until they did. AC spam would begin to drift much like lasers.

On the other hand, chainfiring would keep your drift to a minimum, as would boating smaller amounts of combined guns to fire at once. Maximum, accurate alphas would be reduced, either in total damage or numbers over time. Both increase TTK.

[wanderer]

Quote

I'm fine with this. I hope they implement it exactly as you suggested so I can just run triple gauss on a dire wolf or 4 uac/5s with extra heat sinks and obliterate everyone. The game would be much simpler because there would only be two viable assault builds, and anything that doesn't run gauss or dakka would be invalidated. I especially like how light mechs would be completely invalidated with your suggestion as they'd start hurting themselves after 1 alpha,

So you're saying the most dangerous 'Mech on the field is...the slow ballistic boat? Now, I agree that it'd change the Gauss rifle (they'd likely slow the reload time further). Are you saying that the only thing keeping your dakka-dominating build from ruling all is that everyone else can spam massive amounts of energy fire?

Because if that's second best now, how friggin' broken is Unlimited Beam Works?

Also, lights would actually be the slowest effected by high heat. Movement penalties that trigger from overheat do the least to a high engine rating, low tonnage 'Mech, and close combat means weapon drift would be relatively minimized. Frequently, jump capacity also means that a light can fire, jump clear, and cool down while still maintaining a decent percentage of it's ground speed.

Edited by wanderer, 10 September 2015 - 02:27 PM.

[MuonNeutrino]

wanderer, on 10 September 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

We can translate decently from the 0-30 heat scale in tabletop- 1 overheat in TT is basically 3.33% (repeating) in MWO heatbar.

Just a note - this isn't actually how a direct translation of the TT heat penalties into MWO would work. You're missing the effects of MWO's heatsinks increasing the heat cap, which is how a realtime simulation has to handle the way that TT subtracts the heatsinks from each turn's heat generation before applying any penalties.

If it were implemented as you suggest, heat penalties would kick in far sooner than they would in TT. Consider, for a very simple example, a stock WHK-Prime, with 4 ERPPCs and 20 DHS. In tabletop, this mech dissipates 40 heat per turn. So, if it fires two out of 4 PPCs, since the 30 heat generated is less than the dissipation its heat bar doesn't even budge - a WHK can fire 2 PPCs forever without ever incurring any heat penalties. In MWO, on the other hand, even if we are generous and give the WHK 20 *truedubs* for a heat capacity of 70, 2 PPCs is still a heat spike of 30/70 = 42.8%, which on your scale incurs penalties all the way up to the second tohit modifier.

If you really want to match TT's heat penalties, they should only kick in on the *last* 30 points heat capacity, ignoring the heat capacity added via heatsinks. This mimics the way that TT only actually applies heat that exceeds the dissipation for that turn. For instance, for that WHK in MWO, the heat penalties would start counting after 40/70 = 57.1% on the heat bar, and would be distributed appropriately over that last 42.9%. Then, if that Warhawk fired 3 PPCs for 45 heat, in tabletop that would add a total of 5 heat to the mech, reaching the first movement penalty, and likewise in MWO that would be a heat spike of 45/70 = 64.3%, also exactly at the first movement penalty. (Again, ignoring details like truedubs/poordubs and ghost heat.)

Now, all of that is completely aside of whether this whole thing is a good idea or not, and I'm skeptical about that part. I just wanted to correct the math.

Edited by MuonNeutrino, 10 September 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[wanderer]

On the other side of that, if heat penalties don't kick in early enough, they may as well not matter to alpha strikers. It might be better to shift the larger portion towards the higher end of the heat bar, but if someone doesn't see trouble before the point of cool down or blow up, it's usually not going to matter.

[Tarl Cabot]

I would go for reduce speed in mech twisting/arm movement. If there was a CoF it would increase in scale (doubtful if COF will exist for MWO) but make the crosshairs flicker off/on and become jittery (like jumping). Reduction in mech speed/acceleration.

atm I am having a difficult time getting on board with ammo explosion unless it was done at 100%

Most importantly, putting a hard cap on the max heat scale.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 10 September 2015 - 07:40 PM.

[Igor Kozyrev]

wanderer, on 10 September 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

Then there's nothing that will ever stop the PPFLD
<…>
On the other hand, chainfiring would keep your drift to a minimum, as would boating smaller amounts of combined guns to fire at once. Maximum, accurate alphas would be reduced, either in total damage or numbers over time. Both increase TTK.

I'm not that against this idea, the thing is that I once asked Russ about the same (well, not about CoF, but about moving crosshair so you always know where you'll hit, but aiming becomes more difficult), and Russ just said "nope, never gonna happen". Same thing applies to your idea.

[VinJade]

your system is even stricter than the TT counter part...
and that's just well sad.

I think it's fine as it is.
Then again my Adder doesn't over heat, lol

[Rogue Jedi]

wanderer, on 10 September 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

all that needs be done is adding appropriate effects. We can translate decently from the 0-30 heat scale in tabletop- 1 overheat in TT is basically 3.33% (repeating) in MWO heatbar.

17% overheat = 'Mech temporarily acts as if it's got an engine rating of (normal engine - 'Mech tonnage), meaning it loses the appropriate speed and agility. Jump jets are NOT changed by overheat, giving you a reason to use them for an escape after heating yourself into slowpoke mode.
27% overheat = 'Mech gains a very modest cone-of-fire effect (crosshair visibly expands slightly). LRM spread increases slightly.
33% overheat = As 17%, only (normal engine - 2x 'Mech tonnage).
43% overheat = COF expands, LRM spread increases.
50% overheat = As 17% only (normal engine -3x 'Mech tonnage).
57% overheat = COF expands again, LRM spread increases again.
63% overheat = ammo damage of .1 per tic, randomly applied to a single ammo section per tic.
67% overheat = as 17%, only (normal engine -4x 'Mech tonnage).
77% overheat = ammo damage of .2 per tic instead of .1, randomly applied to a single ammo section per tic.
80% overheat = COF expands even further, LRM spread increase.
83% overheat = As 17% only (normal engine -5x 'Mech tonnage).
93% overheat = ammo damage of .3 per tic instead of .1, randomly applied as before.
100% overheat = autoshutdown unless override
100%+ overheat = 'Mech damage as per normal MWO rules.

I'd suggest movement reduction caps at the "one legged 'Mech being hit" speeds and agility at the equivalent of the 'Mech's tonnage in engine rating (to see it in action, slap a 100 rated engine in a 100-ton 'Mech).

With this, heatloading your 'Mech carries offensive and defensive penalties- even a "I'm only needing to fire once" boater will have to deal with sluggish movement and people riding the heat curve while firing will lose accuracy as they raise their heat level until they let the 'Mech cool down.

Lighter 'Mechs may peak in heat faster but still retain mobility, while heavier 'Mechs will keep a sharper eye on the bar (but be generally able to sink more heat) to avoid going full-on into slug mode.

In other words, you'll actually have to pay attention and there's a price for those immense, 'Mech-coring beamstrikes.

Once a real heat system is in? Kick ghost heat to the curb and re-examine the pile of "fixes" we've awkwardly had placed in MWO.

so a stock urbanmech would effectively have a 0 rated engine if running at 33% heat or higher? a Direwolf at 50% would be unable to move, the Timby would be frozen at 83%, and an XL280 Jenner would be effectively reduced to Dire Wolf speeds if it hit 83%.
the ideas are not terrible however the numbers for speed reduction need to be at least halved.

I would be more in favor of the penalty system starting at 50% with things like HUD flicker, mobility becoming less predictable (to simulate actuator stress), and odds of ammo cooking off given higher likelihood as heat gets higher, with something along the lines of if you hit 125% heat the engine shuts down so it does not breach containment and the pilot is ejected to prevent him/her cooking in the furnace like cockpit

[Hotthedd]

I'm all for the suggestions in the OP.

One thing that would have to be changed is that dissipation needs to be constant. As it stands right now, chain-firing is at a disadvantage because as far as I can tell heat sinks do not dissipate while a weapon is firing.

[MechWarrior849305]

I will just go with your sug step-by-step, may I?
So, I join in battle and bring DireWhale. It features 300 engi rate. SO...
17% overheat = 300 - 100 = 200 rate. Let's assume speed loss is linear, so instead of 53kmph I will go 2/3 of if, like 35kmph. Okay.
33% overheat = 300 - 200 = 100 rate. 1/3 of 53, roughly 18 kmph. Lolz, Okay.
50% overheat = 300 - 300 = 0 rate. Full stop. OKAAAAYYYY
67% overheat = 300 - 400 = Do the math yourself. I think it's time to propell Dire backwardzzzz
83% overheat - Do I need to count this one too?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Also Dissipation is not keeping pace with Heat Generated over time. For HS to better work with MWO Heat and Heat Quirks, we could see Singles get boosted to 0.2 each and Doubles to 0.4 (Before or after 2x Cool Run and Heat Containment is up for debate).

And actually if boosts to Dissipation would match the increase in Heat Capacity and Damage output from Weapons in MWO to better match the P&P variables, Dissipation should actually be 0.25 for Singles and 0.5 for Doubles.

Here is a table (for Single Heat Sinks) I came up with that basically translates the P&P values at 2.5x like most weapons have been, that scales the Heat Effects like it was originally:

[Spleenslitta]

I may not agree with the heatpenalties we get from OP's idea but i'll say this- Any idea that's put forward to replace Ghostheat is worth looking at.
I don't boat anything except MG's because i love the sound they make when there is a lot of them.
My current KFX has SRM6, cERLL and cERML.....that's a fair bit nutty.

If we got sluggish mechs at heat levels higher than 60% i'd be fine with that. Staying at 90% for a few secs could cause ammo explosions.
If you got to 100% ammo explosions should be guarantied. This would encourage balanced flexible builds.
If the Flamer had 100% chance to ignite ammunition when it hits an unarmored section with ammo in it i'd love it.

No more LRM boats filled the brim with ammo. No more ammo based boats because of the ammo explosion risks and no more huge alpha laser boats because of the rapidly increasing heat.

[wanderer]

Quote

If you got to 100% ammo explosions should be guarantied. This would encourage balanced flexible builds.
If the Flamer had 100% chance to ignite ammunition when it hits an unarmored section with ammo in it i'd love it.

We used to have ammo explosions become pretty much automatic at high heat levels.

This (along with flamer changes) was soon changed because it was all too easy to obliterate a 'Mech, especially back in the SHS days where some Trials would literally shutdown on the first alpha strike.

Quote

I will just go with your sug step-by-step, may I?

*speedloss part deleted*

Note that I also have a cap on movement reduction/agility at the bottom of the chart. You never hit zero. And I agree, the initial rate of speed loss is excessive- which was on purpose, I did want to see what people thought of as reasonable.

But yes,high levels of heat -should- cripple a 'Mech. 50% of maximum in TT is constantly risking shutdown and 66% constantly risking outright death by ammo detonation. Similar heat levels for long periods of time should be something no MWO pilot wants. The original chart is nasty and harsh, but it gives a good starting point for an overheat system for MWO, which really, REALLY needs something to keep things in check.

Until we do, there's nothing stopping the endless iterations of pinpoint alphablasting.