32 replies to this topic

[Damien Tokala]

We're in the midst of a rebalance, many people are confused or generally not happy. In the flurry of charts and data, we've forgotten to step back and ask, "what makes this mech good?"

We have mechs that carry a single launcher pod, summoner, Thunderbolt, zeus, and almost always people will scrap that pod just to fit laser vomit meta. They wouldn't even dare to bring a single missile rack of any type, it's just not worth it.

These mechs were designed with roles in mind, and because of this, I truly believe that stock mechs need a buff, that lrm15 summoner pod? X2 damage multiplier. That mech with a single srm6? Make it feel like an srm12.

Stock mechs need to be given a reason to keep those redundant weapon slots, but at the same time, we can't give these buffs to just any slot.

Youll never see a gauss do more than 15, or even c-er-med lasers, but those tiny little weapons that come stock that are commonly tossed aside should be seeing buffs that make it VIABLE to use. That summoner should have way more ammo, and that single lrm15 should be something to worry about, it's a weapon after all.

So I propose a set of quirks for all mechs called "stock build bonus" these pure stock builds must be fully stock, not even armor adjustments would let you get such bonus. The smaller, seemingly insignificant weapons, can have a RNG chance to deal way more damage than they would, but the downside to such damage buffs mean a cbills reduction.

Feel free to add more to this idea, and thank you for your time.

[Sarlic]

Yes, we need more seperate whine threads about the rebalance in the General section.

Edited by Sarlic, 13 September 2015 - 02:23 AM.

[Damien Tokala]

This isn't a whine thread, if you'd just read.

[Sarlic]

Damien Tokala, on 13 September 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:

This isn't a whine thread, if you'd just read.

I know. But why did you post it here and not in PTS section?

[Damien Tokala]

Because currently it's a discussion, a brainstorming effort that I'd like to build up before presenting it to the pts forums.

[Rebas Kradd]

All PGI needs to do for balance is nerf Clan lasers. Automatically opens up whole worlds of balance.

[orcrist86]

The changes are not just about balance in terms of weaponry, but information too. The major concerns a player has in battle are about terrain, their load out, the position of friendliest and enemies, and the status of their target. Currently target data and enemy position and status are trivial elements. By changing how target acquisition works they will add new depth to play. The big problem people have is that info tech bonuses seemed to be paired with hefty negatives. The approach should instead be to specialize a mech and while leaving other aspects alone and then adding 1 or 2 drawbacks that do not cripple the general role of the variant. This would provide incentive to play a role, while still allowing player agency.

[Davegt27]

Damien Tokala, on 13 September 2015 - 02:22 AM, said:

We're in the midst of a rebalance, many people are confused or generally not happy. In the flurry of charts and data, we've forgotten to step back and ask, "what makes this mech good?"

We have mechs that carry a single launcher pod, summoner, Thunderbolt, zeus, and almost always people will scrap that pod just to fit laser vomit meta. They wouldn't even dare to bring a single missile rack of any type, it's just not worth it.

These mechs were designed with roles in mind, and because of this, I truly believe that stock mechs need a buff, that lrm15 summoner pod? X2 damage multiplier. That mech with a single srm6? Make it feel like an srm12.

Stock mechs need to be given a reason to keep those redundant weapon slots, but at the same time, we can't give these buffs to just any slot.

Youll never see a gauss do more than 15, or even c-er-med lasers, but those tiny little weapons that come stock that are commonly tossed aside should be seeing buffs that make it VIABLE to use. That summoner should have way more ammo, and that single lrm15 should be something to worry about, it's a weapon after all.

So I propose a set of quirks for all mechs called "stock build bonus" these pure stock builds must be fully stock, not even armor adjustments would let you get such bonus. The smaller, seemingly insignificant weapons, can have a RNG chance to deal way more damage than they would, but the downside to such damage buffs mean a cbills reduction.

Feel free to add more to this idea, and thank you for your time.

I think this is a good idea

The problem is people will cry no matter what is done

[Davers]

Damien Tokala, on 13 September 2015 - 02:22 AM, said:

We're in the midst of a rebalance, many people are confused or generally not happy. In the flurry of charts and data, we've forgotten to step back and ask, "what makes this mech good?"

We have mechs that carry a single launcher pod, summoner, Thunderbolt, zeus, and almost always people will scrap that pod just to fit laser vomit meta. They wouldn't even dare to bring a single missile rack of any type, it's just not worth it.

These mechs were designed with roles in mind, and because of this, I truly believe that stock mechs need a buff, that lrm15 summoner pod? X2 damage multiplier. That mech with a single srm6? Make it feel like an srm12.

Stock mechs need to be given a reason to keep those redundant weapon slots, but at the same time, we can't give these buffs to just any slot.

Youll never see a gauss do more than 15, or even c-er-med lasers, but those tiny little weapons that come stock that are commonly tossed aside should be seeing buffs that make it VIABLE to use. That summoner should have way more ammo, and that single lrm15 should be something to worry about, it's a weapon after all.

So I propose a set of quirks for all mechs called "stock build bonus" these pure stock builds must be fully stock, not even armor adjustments would let you get such bonus. The smaller, seemingly insignificant weapons, can have a RNG chance to deal way more damage than they would, but the downside to such damage buffs mean a cbills reduction.

Feel free to add more to this idea, and thank you for your time.

So now I have to play all my weak IS mechs as stock with no DHS/Endo to get any bonuses? Nah.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Weapons in general need to be looked at and rebalanced, and then some of the mechs given a few mild quirks. No, no mech is so bad that it needs like 50-70% combined quirks for any one thing.

Let the rebalance also include rescaling, messing with some animations or mech stances, like the Warhawk, moving its arms in such a way that thye sit higher and kinda shield the side of the STs.

The Awesome, remodeling it so its a little less, "Broadside of a barn"

Victor, rescaling so its an 80t assault mech and not an acutely Obese Centurion.
Centurion, scaling it down, so its more 50t mech and less Atlas sized.

Buffing LBX, I could get behind them doing like 2x dmg per pellet. AC2 being an AC4 in terms of damage, AC20 being AC40, given they spread damage all over the place anyway.

SRMs, tighten up thier weapon group spread and increase speed slightly.

PPCs, give them better velocity again, maybe increase CD times...

Lasers, make them more equal dmg for equal heat and less more dmg for less heat.

Clan lasers, I would almost not be against them losing some range, but still being maybe 75-125m more range then thier IS counterparts, but also reducing thier burn time accordingly, but keep the damage. CLan lasers, still better then IS, but less so then now.

LRMs: faster speed, tighter spreads.

We need less Anti-LRM Counter measures....its insane how many we have, all because people dont get the idea of move when they get a lock. I agree, mass LRMs + NARC=bad day, but in general, LRMs really are a rather useless weapon.

I dont understand where this current rebalance is headed.....the numbers or quirks dont even make sense.

[Cyborne Elemental]

For Summoner, Thunderbolt.. and that 1 single launcher slot..

If 1 LRM20 was worth its tonnage, in either accuracy, critslot, or DPS compared to 4xLRM5 in anyway more than it is, those single hardpoint mechs designed to carry these heavy missle weapons might not be so bad off.

[FupDup]

The real question is "What were they smoking?"

[Damien Tokala]

Mister D, on 13 September 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

For Summoner, Thunderbolt.. and that 1 single launcher slot..

If 1 LRM20 was worth its tonnage, in either accuracy, critslot, or DPS compared to 4xLRM5 in anyway more than it is, those single hardpoint mechs designed to carry these heavy missle weapons might not be so bad off.

Exactly. Give a reason to use that single adder flamer, or that single srm6, or those two machine guns.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Missiles, ECM, and BAP all need a fundamental redesign. I'd suggest something like the following.

IS SRMs need either a damage buff or a much tighter cone of fire to make them comparable to clan SRMs.Alternatively clan SRMs could ripple fire in two waves as the launcher is litterally half the size but able to fire more quickly.

I also think SRMs should have a soft locking ability that as you hold the reticule near a target that is in range the cone of fire reduces. This ability should take longer for clan SRMS. Additionally, each SRM beyond the first one increases CoF by a certain percentage in addition to the ghost heat effects due to limitations in the targeting computer.

This makes one launcher perfectly good and makes chain firing the better option farther away but allows SRM boats to shine up close.

LRMs... need a complete redesign not only of LRMs but of ECM, Artemis, and BAP as well.

I'd suggest having them do damage in groups of 5 (once again the answer is more TT), have a much higher velocity (light mechs outrunning missiles lolz), make them fire and forget, and greatly reduce their rate of fire. I'd also require a lock every time you fire a launcher and have it have to gather a new lock after firing a LRM launcher.

Certain mechs that are TT LRM boats would naturally have quirks to accelerate lock on and have increased range on their visual sensors (1000m or more compared to the 800 m that is standard atm)

For indirect fire, the allied mech has to not be under ECM and they have to get a fresh lock for you each time you want to fire.

NARC should probably act as a continuous lock considering you have to risk quite a lot to get that close.

Artemis should decrease lock on time for LRMS and increase the rate that SRM CoF decreases. Artemis equipped launchers take somewhat longer to lock onto indirectly targeted mechs.

Streaks should lock on like my suggested LRMs and function as they currently do. IS streaks should do 2.5 damage

BAP should include 360 degree targeting, thermal vision (either remove it as a base tech or allow increase detection range with BAP), seismic sensors, and show a dorito of any mech within say 200 meters on your minimap with a bonus or penalty to detection based on the size of the mech (lights may not show up until 100m but assaults might show up at 300 or 350). It should also retain its longer range due to better sensors

BAP and clan AP should now be limited like ECM to certain mechs. Both those that have it in TT and others as a quirk to make them stronger.

The individual components of BAP can be broken down into modules (extended radar range, seismic, etc).

Certain sub par mechs like the Myst Lynx should recieve large buffs to its BAP range and capabilities to give it a useful if non combat focused role.

ECM no longer prevents locks, but should increase the time required to obtain a lock, disable artemis, disable NARC, and prevent the mech from showing a dorito until it is within the enemy mech's maximum sensor range/2. ECM prevents target information sharing within 100 meters preventing LRM support from getting indirect locks. ECM now counters BAP instead of the other way around. The electronic interference shows up as a warning on the HUD of a countered BAP as "Warning ECM dectected." If the BAP mech is standing still the ECM mech may still show up on its seismic sensors.

[Damien Tokala]

i'll agree our current set of info-tech needs an overhaul, ECM has become a go-to must have for any group. LRMs as they stand, make no sense unless you seriously buff them to make up for the fact that ECM can more or less neuter them.

[Vellron2005]

Here are some of my own balance ideas:

1) Remove quirks - ALL OF THEM.

2) Add specific buffs to specific mechs - so if you want a mech to be beefy, simply add more armor, or hitpoints or whatver. If you want it to be firepower heavy, make it so it has enourmous firepower, but less armor

3) Nerf ECM to 100 meters (instead of 90 as was sugested) Let only light mechs and certain special "command role" mechs equip ECM. Remove it from Atlas, Hellbringer and similar mechs.

4) Let LRM's lock-on to target, and then hit that target regardless of loss of lock mid-flight.

5) Specialise mechs not with quirks, but with armor and weapon hardpoints. Some mechs will be boats by design, some will be diverse by design. Make shure the diverse ones still have alphas comperable to boated mechs and can carry enough ammo.

6) Reward ECM countering with cbills.

7) Reward protecting assaults with cbills

8) Change weapon hardpoints so that certain mechs can't field overpowering builds (such as a light mech carrying AC20 or 2xPPC's or 8 Small lasers and stuff like that)

9) Change weapon hardpoints so that a specific weight class simply can't field overpowering alphas, no matter what combination of weapons you put on it. (mediums alpha 50, heavy alpha 60 and so on)

10) Increase ammo ammounts, add engine heat sinks at no cost to tonnage, add the ability to convert exess tonnage into armor

[Damien Tokala]

I don't agree with limiting ones alpha strike potential, but the rest of your ideas hold merit

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Nah, Stock dont have to be mixed with Full Custom.
What we need is just Stock Mode.

[Damien Tokala]

Adding more game modes will induce longer wait times. What is needed is for stock mechs to have a viable reason to be used.

That single flamer on the adder? Make it as strong as 4 flamers with none of the additional heat to the user.

That single srm4 feels like an srm8 and that lone small laser has an additional 100m range, a high cool down and a low heat threshold.

These buffs are only for stock, they wouldn't show up on anything else or on any other slot but it's designated slot and weapon.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister D, on 13 September 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

For Summoner, Thunderbolt.. and that 1 single launcher slot..

If 1 LRM20 was worth its tonnage, in either accuracy, critslot, or DPS compared to 4xLRM5 in anyway more than it is, those single hardpoint mechs designed to carry these heavy missle weapons might not be so bad off.

4 LRM5s fire faster so they will obviously get more DpS.