15 replies to this topic

[speleomaniac]

I really don't understand this balance patch.

I got it, the things are of control, TTK is all time low but how the following scenario will fix anything.

Think about a mech, Thunderbolt 5SS, which was irrelevant before the quirks because of the crapy hit boxes, horrible heat management and weapons. It was out classed in every possible way from Clans, specially from Timberwolf. Which has more range with 6 MPLs, more alpha and better heat management with 2-slot double hit sinks.

So if the 5SS will lose all of its quirks, range, heat, etc how the hell it should complete with Timberwolf with new balance change, in which Timbverwolf didn't get any negative quirks and 5SS get only structure quirks.

So when Timberwolf sitting at 400m range registering nearly full damage from it MPLs and 5SS sitting with its 220m range MPLs even not registering damage and acting like pinjata for Timberwolf?

If you understand how this new balance thing should work please explain me.

[Hans Von Lohman]

That really hasn't been talked about that much. Nobody is going to be able to answer that, but we're going to need something.

One of the ideas seems to be that IS mechs are just going to have more durability. Period. They'll be tougher than Clan mechs because they're old tech that just keeps on going even when beat to hell. In particular the internal structure. That way you can open up a mech, and then lose gear in that location before you just get that section blown off. Right now there isn't that sense that you are lumbering around in a mech that is shot up, but still operational.

The Atlas on the PTS had a lot more internal structure points for example.

It is what I would do. I am OK with the concept that in MWO the Clans are very high tech and have more firepower for less weight, but that high tech also makes them fragile.

Yes, it breaks lore. However, something has to give.

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 13 September 2015 - 11:41 PM.

[speleomaniac]

That is another point why internal structure but not armor.

If Atlas loose armor it does not matter how much internal structure it has, no armor means, that AC20 will still explode and Atlas will lose it chance to fight back.

If it will have armor then it can fight back little bit more, does acting like pinjata win fights.

[Johnny Z]

speleomaniac, on 13 September 2015 - 11:44 PM, said:

That is another point why internal structure but not armor.

If Atlas loose armor it does not matter how much internal structure it has, no armor means, that AC20 will still explode and Atlas will lose it chance to fight back.

If it will have armor then it can fight back little bit more, does acting like pinjata win fights.

The structure avenue is a good mone because it lets the mechs systems go down before boom. This improves the SIM. No complaints here they went with structure.

Also the tougher Inner Sphere vrs the more advanced(sissy like ) clans is fine to. But the two techs are not completely balanced live, why not add this to fill any gaps in the live server(Atlases for example) or to tone down SOME of the out of hand quirks.

Lights like the commando and locust needed help live why not focus the sensors quirks on them and sprinkle the sensors changes around from there.

Mobility quirks I keep forgetting in this hurricane of inbalance to.

It will be interesting how this all plays out but its content I dont like even if it is entertaining. Blah.

Gees even that over used Loki omni pod could be balanced with heavy negative quirks to structure and sensors and could be properly explained that the ECM housing(weaker structure) and interference(bad ttargeting sensors) was to blame. All ECM capable mechs could get the same treatment, enhancing the SIM in the process and balancing the game in one move.

+1 for mech sim.

Also absolutely no offense, but the comment that "its a game" could explain extra damage for having mechs properly targeted is how some Star Wars games ended up 5% Star Wars and 95% something else. A slippery slope. Just wanted to mention that.

Star Wars Battlefront coming out fairly soon moved from most anticipated game to second at the mere mention of power ups, instantly putting Fallout 4 in the lead. Fallout 4 is massive but doesnt have 3 huge budget movies coming soon or decades of movies and games backing it up. Just some off topic commentary.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 September 2015 - 12:14 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Give IS weapons balanced against clans. Then give the SS some quirks it it would be fine.


Its clear what needs an IS counter balance.


Tier 1 mechs from metamechs.com analysis in relation to balance.

Tier 1 Clan High - All weapons used.
gauss
LPL
ER Medium

Clan Tier One Low - All weapons used.
gauss
LPL
ER Medium
Er Small (Only Arctic Cheata)

[TwentyOne]

The problem is unless they start giving everything atlas D +50 structure in every IS mech, they just will not compete. Less damage at less range for more heat and higher tonnage. Their offence is awful compared to Clans, without quirks.

[speleomaniac]

This information warfare thing, target acquire time/distance, that is another crap.

They published lately so much ECM mechs, %80 of enemy the team are not targetable, most of the matches lately, I am fired from 5 mechs but there is no mech to lock on. Which is worst with new maps, while I am color blind, and with the new color layout of the maps I have hard time to see enemy anyway.

So what brings that my Firestarter will get range and lock on speed but there is no mech to lock on enemy team. If they don't provide a burn ECM quirk good luck doing something useful with your light other then Artic Cheetah.

Edited by speleomaniac, 14 September 2015 - 12:19 AM.

[Jungle Rhino]

Well if the balance is going to be:
Clans: speed + firepower
IS: protection

Then I can tell you how that is going to end...

[Hans Von Lohman]

Jungle Rhino, on 14 September 2015 - 12:09 AM, said:

Well if the balance is going to be:
Clans: speed + firepower
IS: protection

Then I can tell you how that is going to end...

Nobody knows what the new balance will be. I just posted on of the ideas that came up months ago.

It will probably be something else.

[Sarlic]

TwentyOne, on 14 September 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

The problem is unless they start giving everything atlas D +50 structure in every IS mech, they just will not compete. Less damage at less range for more heat and higher tonnage. Their offence is awful compared to Clans, without quirks.

Hans Von Lohman, on 13 September 2015 - 11:39 PM, said:

The Atlas on the PTS had a lot more internal structure points for example.

Shameless pulled quoteof me from the PTS

Sarlic, on 12 September 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

I disagree (not on everything)

It's sure in the right direction. But it needs less structure quirks, but more and or better armor value's.

You can give it as much structure quirks you want, but if the armor is still terrible light and easily to break through, it will still disable your weapons with ease. And you just Zombie along with the excessive structure quirks and disabled weapons.

That's the difference.

It needs to be a mixture of both structure and armor. Not only structure.

Edited by Sarlic, 14 September 2015 - 12:18 AM.

[Yokaiko]

TwentyOne, on 14 September 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

The problem is unless they start giving everything atlas D +50 structure in every IS mech, they just will not compete. Less damage at less range for more heat and higher tonnage. Their offence is awful compared to Clans, without quirks.

Really, Altas -D out damages Gargles, is about par with sexycutioner, and tops most credible warhark builds. Doesn't hang with a whale from a distance but can just one up pretty good up close.

The standard brawler out DPSs Gigaspike but a large margin (issue us getting one to hit your arms) and can keep going well after the whales has overheated.

I think mine has 3 LPLs and an AC20 currently, the harpoint locations suck, but if I can clear everything it hurts.
Don't stick to open beta builds.

[Johnny Z]

Jungle Rhino, on 14 September 2015 - 12:09 AM, said:

Well if the balance is going to be:
Clans: speed + firepower
IS: protection

Then I can tell you how that is going to end...

Clan speed and agility has to be nerfed for the SIM if nothing else anyway. Medium heavy assault Inner Sphere mechs moving at those speeds also. The quirks should be stat based rather than chassis based, going over 70 in a heavy? Get proggressively worse negative quirks. This is how a sim balances itself. Easier said than done of course.

Alpha on a light higher than 25? Reactor says "I dont think so" negative quirks. Just random numbers that could be changed depending on how they want the sim to play out. Here negative quirks could be replaced with reactor energy pool or even the heat system in some way.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 September 2015 - 12:32 AM.

[Kmieciu]

I have a 65-tonne Hellbringer. I use the single dumbest weapon combo out there: 6xERML 30DHS with Targeting Computer and ECM. 464 meter effective range.

I don't really care it an Atlas has +50 structure. It really has no chance against my mech. All I have to do, is to keep my distance. And It's rather easy when you're running at 89kph.

Yokaiko, on 14 September 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

I think mine has 3 LPLs and an AC20 currently, the harpoint locations suck, but if I can clear everything it hurts.
Don't stick to open beta builds.

I've been playing MWO as long as you have, and Atlai were never good at mid-range trading game. Nowadays, every clan mech armed with 5+ ERML will out-trade you. Even the pitiful Ice Ferret can bring 5 ERML. Even an Adder. You won't be able to dodge this damage in an Atlas. And when you come across a Gauss+C-LPL you won't be able to do anything at all.
At least the old "Kong Atlas" (STD350 AC20+3xSRM6+A) can still wreck clan laser vomit at point blank rage, as long as you don't meet a Timby armed with 4xSRM6+A with 5xC-SPL...

Edited by Kmieciu, 14 September 2015 - 12:56 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Reading all of this I can see why so many quirks were removed. Many of the quirks should be stat based not chassis or varient based. Then IS and Omni tech could be balanced with the same system.

Mobility quirks based on tonnage vrs speed.

Sensors quirks based on tonnage(size), ECM, maybe speed.

Weapon quirks/alpha limits on damage output or something.

Durability quirks based on number of hard points or something.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 September 2015 - 01:08 AM.

[MauttyKoray]

speleomaniac, on 13 September 2015 - 11:21 PM, said:

I really don't understand this balance patch.

I got it, the things are of control, TTK is all time low but how the following scenario will fix anything.

Think about a mech, Thunderbolt 5SS, which was irrelevant before the quirks because of the crapy hit boxes, horrible heat management and weapons. It was out classed in every possible way from Clans, specially from Timberwolf. Which has more range with 6 MPLs, more alpha and better heat management with 2-slot double hit sinks.

So if the 5SS will lose all of its quirks, range, heat, etc how the hell it should complete with Timberwolf with new balance change, in which Timbverwolf didn't get any negative quirks and 5SS get only structure quirks.

So when Timberwolf sitting at 400m range registering nearly full damage from it MPLs and 5SS sitting with its 220m range MPLs even not registering damage and acting like pinjata for Timberwolf?

If you understand how this new balance thing should work please explain me.

Its in progress and the entirety of the game's systems are being rebalanced from what Sean Lang said. Plus it was stated that Russ will not push this to the live server until it is READY.

[Tyler Valentine]

TwentyOne, on 14 September 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

...more heat...

HA!