24 replies to this topic

[Zerex]

This isn't a balance to bring IS mechs inline with Clan mechs, in fact its quite the opposite. Its to make the Clans feel a lot different from their IS counter-parts and keep the Clan mechs OP as they should be, weapons, speed and movement aren't the only ways of tweaking mechs.
These changes i have keep in mind Gameplay, Lore and user ease

Clan mechs

• Remove all consumable modules from Clan mechs
  
• Remove all quirks, positive and negative
  
• Remove all Info sharing to and from Clan mechs
  
• Set torso twist and pitching to the same for all mechs of each weight, so all 55 ton mechs twist/pitch the same amount of degrees, with 20 ton mechs having the most twist/pitch and 100 ton mechs having the least.

The thought behind this is that Clan pilots wouldn't use Arty, Air, UAV's or coolshots in lore so why do they have access to them here, their mechs are OP in nature so make that their key feature. As Clan pilots fight 1v1 on the battlefield why would they find the need to send and receive battleground info? they wouldn't so lock access to info sharing to IS mechs only.



IS mechs

• Remove all quirks positive and negative
  
• Readjust lock (info) on speed times on mech weight. I,e, 20 ton = 0.5 seconds, 100 ton = 4 seconds
  
• Set torso twist and pitching to the same for all mechs of each weight, so all 55 ton mechs twist/pitch the same amount of degrees, with 20 ton mechs having the most twist/pitch and 100 ton mechs having the least. (Bar Urbie)

This should give a nice base line to IS mechs with lights now being much better scouts than other classes. with all same ton mechs have the same twist/ pitch, it will make it easier to re-quirk the under performers.



Weapon re-balance

Because of the way the timings have been set out for the recycle times on weapons, it caused a huge imbalance to the weapon systems, AC/20's made almost pointless because 4 medium lasers do the same at a fraction of the weight with a higher DPS, less chance of being crit'ed and no ammo to worry about

• AC's and Gauss to all have the same fixed recycle time
  
• Small lasers and medium lasers damage reduced to fit the weapons curve (including pulse)
  
• LRM's to all have the same fixed recycle time

While i have said fixed recycle times, this doesn't NEED to be the case, just as long as they are staying roughly inline with the DPS curve. The curve in TT is:



AC/2 = 0.5 DPS
AC/5 = 1.25 DPS
AC/10 = 2.5 DPS
AC/20 = 5.0 DPS

MWO is:

AC/2 = 2.8 DPS
AC/5 = 3.1 DPS
AC/10 = 4.0 DPS
AC/20 = 5.0 DPS

As you can see this is really out of whack, i'm NOT saying going off the TT curve is the way forward. it does give an idea to how broke it is, But because of this, it bleeds over into the mechs too, Most Atlas's only have Ballistic slot which tends to be the AC/20 fitted and because of the well and truly under performing AC/20, the Atlas goes from being a feared mech to a meh mech, If the weapons don't fit to a damage curve, there is no hope of ever trying to find balance in these mechs as the baseline damage curves that the chassis were based on are now broke.

Requirk

After the weapon re-balance any mechs (Clan and IS) falling short of the damage curve for its weight class can be quirked with "Standard" quirks for weapon cooldown and heat gen (only)
for all weapons types it carries. this will give it that little extra fire power to help bring them into line while not forcing into 1 build for that chassis, like the TDR-5SS.

10% missile cooldown
10% missile heat gen
10% laser cooldown
10% laser heat gen


The Outcome
Clan and IS mech will feel totally different, Clan mechs being all about firepower and IS mechs being all about intel, while the Clan mechs will have bigger alpha damage they will have to mange heat much better as they don't have coolshots. TTK goes up as Clan mechs can't rely on coolshots to keep the damage surge up, it also gives rise to better flanking chances as clan mechs can't see any battlefield data unless they have line of sight on it. Players would feel more inclined to use VOIP to give mech movements. And new players would find it a lot easier to get to grips with the weapons if they made sense and stuck to their range stats, instead of crazy quirks like 50% range.


TLDR

• Clan mechs should be OP so keep them OP
  
• IS fight using intel to out number and flank
  
• Weapon rebalance is a must before you can try to requirk mechs

I'm sure there are holes in my ideas and its mostly based on someone sitting down and doing the maths to balance the weapons right in the first place before anything can be changed, but i'd love to hear your thoughts and gripes with it, why its good or bad and what could work and what is just down right stupid. So please feel free to speak freely.

[Mogney]

How do clan and is play in mixed decks under this plan. Also voip negates most of the clans lack if ingotech. But i liKe the concept.

[Mogney]

Also reduce clan ecm to like 25m, and make clan tag,narc and bap only apply to your own mech.

[Zerex]

Dr Tachyon, on 14 September 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

How do clan and is play in mixed decks under this plan. Also voip negates most of the clans lack if ingotech. But i liKe the concept.

IS mechs freely share all intel that there is now, Clan mechs send and receive non. So for a Clan pilot unless its in their lie of sight they are blind to it, regardless if its locked by a friendly or not.

Another idea was for Clan mechs to receive info but not send and if its not in line of sight they get a white Dorito which shows it position but not loadout or paperdoll which can't get them missile lock either.

Edited by Zerex, 14 September 2015 - 10:13 AM.

[Vashramire]

I can't say what would or wouldn't make things more balanced but I do like the idea of chassis/weight conformity on certain things like infotech and possibly mobility. I don't think it's fun to have to try and remember every mech to know that the one I'm facing will retain his lock on me for 3 seconds or .5 depending on their variant. It's also near impossible to know what a clan mech is capable of with infotech since it can mix and match so many omnipods.

[Sleipnir]

This is a very interesting idea. Especially the lack of consumables as it forces clan mechs to prioritise heat efficiency over huge firepower, and would mean IS should gain an advantage the longer a fight lasts.

Since clan mechs have such a range advantage, removing info for them makes a lot of sense, as it should allow IS teams the chance to get closer to fight rather than being half shot to pieces before they get into effective ranges.

+1

[Xavier]

People are overthinking this way too much. what we need is to allow the selection of role warfare by the pilots themselves. use the mech experience tree to allow people to choose their role for each mech as illustrated in the image below.

For a larger image click this link

https://pbs.twimg.co...AV-Zb.png:large

Edited by Xavier, 14 September 2015 - 11:11 AM.

[SpiralFace]

Xavier, on 14 September 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

People are overthinking this way too much. what we need is to allow the selection of role warfare by the pilots themselves. use the mech experience tree to allow people to choose their role for each mech as illustrated in the image below.

This is a very tiny image, and I cannot make out nearly anything in it.

[YourSaviorLegion]

pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

[Zerex]

Xavier, on 14 September 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

People are overthinking this way too much. what we need is to allow the selection of role warfare by the pilots themselves. use the mech experience tree to allow people to choose their role for each mech as illustrated in the image below.

Image too small to read and that is class specialization, which isn't balancing anything, in fact it adds another layer of imbalance on top of the imbalance we already have.

YourSaviorLegion, on 14 September 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

Thanks for your well thought out and worded side.

[Xavier]

SpiralFace, on 14 September 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

This is a very tiny image, and I cannot make out nearly anything in it.

try this link I can't place the large tag on an imbedded image MWO wont allow it.

https://pbs.twimg.co...AV-Zb.png:large

Edited by Xavier, 14 September 2015 - 11:07 AM.

[Xavier]

Zerex, on 14 September 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

Image too small to read and that is class specialization, which isn't balancing anything, in fact it adds another layer of imbalance on top of the imbalance we already have.


Thanks for your well thought out and worded side.

Generally i would agree but what you can do is make the benefits larger for IS mechs instead of clan mechs then as they acheive their designated selected role the gap between them and the CLAN counterparts narrows. IS mech gets a 10% heat reduction bonus CLan only gets a 5% reduction bonus and so on.

thats why I said the enhancements would vary from mech to mech it would not be a standard tree identical for all mechs.

I think what we are missing is the fact that if we made the skill tree(s) unique per mech (IS/Clan ROLE/Role) we could narrow the gaps between clan and IS by giving IS mechs larger bonuses for mastering skills and not have to ever touch weapons to balance the game.

Edited by Xavier, 14 September 2015 - 11:16 AM.

[Zerex]

Xavier, on 14 September 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Generally i would agree but what you can do is make the benefits larger for IS mechs instead of clan mechs then as they acheive their designated selected role the gap between them and the CLAN counterparts narrows. IS mech gets a 10% heat reduction bonus CLan only gets a 5% reduction bonus and so on.

thats why I said the enhancements would vary from mech to mech it would not be a standard tree identical for all mechs.

its again just adding a crutch to IS mechs to try and make them fight on the same level, the only way you can do that is really is to give IS mechs CXL engines and weapons and fix JJ's, FF and Endo, why try balancing them by making them more a like when its more fun and easier by balancing them for being more different?

Also if you don't want your mech to be a sniper anymore but a scout, do you need to buy another mech? can you respend the xp down a different tree? can you unlock all the tree at once?

Edited by Zerex, 14 September 2015 - 11:20 AM.

[Xavier]

Zerex, on 14 September 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

its again just adding a crutch to IS mechs to try and make them fight on the same level, the only way you can do that is really is to give IS mechs CXL engines and weapons and fix JJ's, FF and Endo, why try balancing them by making them more a like when its more fun and easier by balancing them for being more different?

Because mixtech is not a logical concept. If you allow clan weapons on IS mechs than why even have IS weapons at all.....The game design is supposed to match the realistice universe of Mechwarrior. and Mixtech was not really ever an actual thing as much as I love MW4 it got us to used to mixtech IS mechs very rarely ran clan tech. They actually developed new technology in response to Clan weapons ala Xpulse weapons and so on.

Mixtech is not the answer........

Edited by Xavier, 14 September 2015 - 11:29 AM.

[Zerex]

Xavier, on 14 September 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

Because mixtech is not a logical concept. If you allow clan weapons on IS mechs than why even have IS weapons at all.....The game design is supposed to match the realistice universe of Mechwarrior. and Mixtech was not really ever an actual thing as much as I love MW4 it got us to used to mixtech IS mechs very rarely ran clan tech. They actually developed new technology in response to Clan weapons ala Xpulse weapons and so on.

Mixtech is not the answer........

Thats my point, don't try to close the gap between Clan and IS, Don't power creep IS so they can fight 1v1 with Clan. Make them more distinctive and different, fire power vs intel.

Edited by Zerex, 14 September 2015 - 11:33 AM.

[Xavier]

Zerex, on 14 September 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Thats my point, don't try to close the gap between Clan and IS, Don't power creep IS so they can fight 1v1 with Clan. Make them more distinctive and different, fire power vs intel.

But what you are advocating for sir "Mixtech" is a broken concept that only elevates the meta to clan weapons only.

Again Mixtech is not the answer.........

[Zerex]

Xavier, on 14 September 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

But what you are advocating for sir "Mixtech" is a broken concept that only elevates the meta to clan weapons only.

Again Mixtech is not the answer.........

I don't want Mix tech, what i was saying was the only way to balance IS to Clan is to make ALL IS mechs Clan mechs, with CXL's and all that comes with, including clan weapons.

There's no fun in doing that.

I don't really get how i keep saying make them more different and you read that as i want Mixtech...
Please quote me where i said i wanted Mixtech

Edited by Zerex, 14 September 2015 - 11:57 AM.

[Nik Reaper]

Also firepower wins infotech as long as there are skilled people who don't need the red box to shoot, or there is one info mech on there team in a pug game.
An idea could be to buff IS missile and ballistic weapons , so that clans have good lasers and gauss, and IS has good ballistics.
Yeah limited ammo and all that but cooler, and if with comparable damage to laserboats it could make a number of IS mechs be competitive to clan mechs.

Infotech could be used and be big on big maps with objectives on separate parts of the map, as is , it's death ball with 1~3 flanking mid/lights , if you see one you know the rest is near by , and you don't need anything except your eyes for that.

[Zerex]

Nik Reaper, on 14 September 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

Also firepower wins infotech as long as there are skilled people who don't need the red box to shoot, or there is one info mech on there team in a pug game.
An idea could be to buff IS missile and ballistic weapons , so that clans have good lasers and gauss, and IS has good ballistics.
Yeah limited ammo and all that but cooler, and if with comparable damage to laserboats it could make a number of IS mechs be competitive to clan mechs.

Infotech could be used and be big on big maps with objectives on separate parts of the map, as is , it's death ball with 1~3 flanking mid/lights , if you see one you know the rest is near by , and you don't need anything except your eyes for that.

This has nothing to do with Infotech (whatever that is, the only infotech i know of is C3 targeting computers which aren't even in the game). This is Clans mechs have no info at all unless they can see it with there own 2 eyes, you could have a UAV up above you with 3 IS mechs targeting a light coming up behind you and there is no way of you knowing its there.
Next time your in a match, turn your HUD off and lets see if its as easy as you seem to think it is.

Edited by Zerex, 14 September 2015 - 12:26 PM.

[Nik Reaper]

Zerex, on 14 September 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

This has nothing to do with Infotech (whatever that is, the only infotech i know of is C3 targeting computers which aren't even in the game). This is Clans mechs have no info at all unless they can see it with there own 2 eyes, you could have a UAV up above you with 3 IS mechs targeting a light coming up behind you and there is no way of you knowing its there.
Next time your in a match, turn your HUD off and lets see if its as easy as you seem to think it is.

It's not as easy, but I did play that game, when ecm was there to scrue up the iff so yeah, it was doable then and it sure is now, more so that now at least you know who is blue...
The point above is the need for seismic sensor at all times,witch I practice and don't get close up lights in my back with out me knowing it, and often enough there is a ranged light somewhere back there that the team doesn't look at even with all the sensors we have now..
Also it would shake the game up a bit . but it would promote even more death ball as being alone with limited sensors could be a big problem so never leave the pack... not a good gameplay improvement.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 14 September 2015 - 12:38 PM.