209 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Quote

Beeing a good idea as it is, it still isn't nearly a solution to the information warfare. This merely forces players to hit 'R' button without adding any other or just any value to the information itself. E.g. you still don't need scouts. Pity.

Actually, it does more. Sniping beyond your sensor range is no longer precision-pinpoint targeting without someone to provide sensor data closer in. Heavier 'Mechs (you know, the ones with massive weapon batteries) either have to invest in Beagle/Sensor Range to reach out or they can't lock beyond 500m on PTS right now.

That's anything over 55 tons. Mediums hit 800m, lights 1000m with unaided sensors.

If someone isn't holding locks, you're firing loosely grouped shots at best. Having someone who can keep your opponent visible (or at least, get him on sensors before you line up a shot) will be critical, even if they're a light, low-firepower 'Mech with mobility. NARC? TAG? They become useful to everyone, not just lurmboats as they make generating solid locks happen for everyone more easily. ECM? Make it into something that makes a 'Mech "further away" based on the strength of it's own sensor suite- a heavy 'Mech with no bonuses and ECM might only be effectively +125m for purposes of ECM, while that light with BAP/ECM/Sensor Range is giving you a +500m bonus. Yes, this means multiple 'Mechs under the same ECM umbrella would detect at different distances! ECM (or at unlocked targets for whatever reason) wouldn't prevent you firing on line-of-sight...it'd just make it harder to get locks and firing perfect, converging shots, spreading damage across more components.

Mechs with good sensors and the ability to use them will be the ones who make shots for the team count the most.

Edited by wanderer, 15 September 2015 - 11:00 AM.

[moneyBURNER]

This exact solution has been proposed and discussed for years, and yet the devs haven't addressed it. It's a good idea on many levels, and solves the issue of maintaining convergence on the intended target when leading with projectiles, instead of on random objects directly under the reticule.

[SolCrusher]

As long as each round from my 6 AC2 chain firing mech fires where I'm pointed at I could careless. If they're randomly "diverging" away from my targeting site that would suck.

Any weapon fired one at at a time should hit a predictable spot.

Now group firing should be completely different. Group firing should automatically spread based on your mech design. Only items that would be pin point would be those that are located in the same locations.

[Blue Boutique]

It can induce some variances where mechs can chance putting heavy weapons on one side. The probability of hits on a single components increases when firing on an unlocked target.

Edited by Blue Boutique, 15 September 2015 - 11:46 AM.

[Big Tin Man]

Wow, 7 pages and everyone likes the idea, with the sole caveat that ECM would need a nerf. This has to be a record for the forum, WE ALL AGREE. Also, Alex moved the thread, so someone at PGI has seen this.

All Wanderer has to do is perform a third miracle and he's up for Sainthood, if I understand the rules correctly.

[pyrocomp]

wanderer, on 15 September 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Actually, it does more. Sniping beyond your sensor range is no longer precision-pinpoint targeting without someone to provide sensor data closer in. Heavier 'Mechs (you know, the ones with massive weapon batteries) either have to invest in Beagle/Sensor Range to reach out or they can't lock beyond 500m on PTS right now.

That's anything over 55 tons. Mediums hit 800m, lights 1000m with unaided sensors.

If someone isn't holding locks, you're firing loosely grouped shots at best. Having someone who can keep your opponent visible (or at least, get him on sensors before you line up a shot) will be critical, even if they're a light, low-firepower 'Mech with mobility. NARC? TAG? They become useful to everyone, not just lurmboats as they make generating solid locks happen for everyone more easily. ECM? Make it into something that makes a 'Mech "further away" based on the strength of it's own sensor suite- a heavy 'Mech with no bonuses and ECM might only be effectively +125m for purposes of ECM, while that light with BAP/ECM/Sensor Range is giving you a +500m bonus. Yes, this means multiple 'Mechs under the same ECM umbrella would detect at different distances! ECM (or at unlocked targets for whatever reason) wouldn't prevent you firing on line-of-sight...it'd just make it harder to get locks and firing perfect, converging shots, spreading damage across more components.

Mechs with good sensors and the ability to use them will be the ones who make shots for the team count the most.

I see your point, but this makes sensors a buff to the firepower, not an independend side. There is no use of the information and no place to think and make decisions, simply it's 'can of cannot hit'. Once again, no scouts needed, so the 'warfare' may be in place, but information is not a part of it.

In other words, I understand the info-warfare as something a little more active than simple better damage falloff curve (and how long it will take players to adapt or shift meta to boating on two components an microadjust aim?).
Like knowing where the enemy team is at the beginning of the match. This is info and you have to make decisions how to use that. 'Hit-R-for-better-damage' is not from that section.

[Capt Deadpool]

The likely reason why this feature will not be considered is that it is not noob friendly. This game has a higher learning curve than most FPS-type games already. Frustrating new/bad players is unfortunately a poor business model. And PGI probably won't mention this either because if they do they just piss off all the relatively hardcore gamers (the ones who post on the forums). Ergo, this thread will be met with silence by PGI.

Good idea though.

[Mystere]

Big Tin Man, on 15 September 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Wow, 7 pages and everyone likes the idea, with the sole caveat that ECM would need a nerf. This has to be a record for the forum, WE ALL AGREE. Also, Alex moved the thread, so someone at PGI has seen this.

All Wanderer has to do is perform a third miracle and he's up for Sainthood, if I understand the rules correctly.

Ahem! I want an ECM buff: make ECM disable IFF.



<runs for cover>



<feels safe>

Why? It will force people to be very careful with their shots, instead of just going AlphaTardWarriorOnline all the time every time whenever they see a Mech that does not have a blue dorito on. You're going to need communication, situational awareness, and presence of mind to make sure you know who you are shooting.

Sure, it is not very useful if the two teams are on opposite physical locations. But when that is no longer the case, whether due to brawling or infiltration ... much confusion is to be had.

I have to admit that it is not "new player friendly". But then again this game is supposed to be a "thinking person's shooter".

Edited by Mystere, 15 September 2015 - 12:13 PM.

[Big Tin Man]

Mystere, on 15 September 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

Ahem! I want an ECM buff: make ECM disable IFF.

<runs for cover>

<feels safe>

Why? It will force people to be very careful with their shots, instead of just going AlphaTardWarriorOnline all the time every time whenever they see a Mech that does not have a blue dorito on. You're going to need communication, situational awareness, and presence of mind to make sure you know who you are shooting.

Sure, it is not very useful if the two teams are on opposite physical locations. But when that is no longer the case, whether due to brawling or infiltration ... much confusion is to be had.

You can have it if you will personally issue handwritten apologies to every single member of the pug underhive that starts a thread crying about how their teammate cored them from behind.

[Mystere]

Big Tin Man, on 15 September 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

You can have it if you will personally issue handwritten apologies to every single member of the pug underhive that starts a thread crying about how their teammate cored them from behind.

How is that any different from what is happening today?

[PFC Carsten]

wanderer, on 14 September 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

This isn't dynamic convergence. It's ignoring a target unless it's a red Dorito- that is, it's binary.

Do I have a locked target? Converge on it. No? Fire straight ahead at a point X meters away, where X is my maximum range (or maximum sensor range, for that matter- which would give you a point of reference if nothing else.)

That'd make your proposal turn all weapons in a Streak-SRM-type of firing mode.

[Tahawus]

Big Tin Man, on 15 September 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

All Wanderer has to do is perform a third miracle and he's up for Sainthood, if I understand the rules correctly.

Rumor has it that Wanderer is the reason that HG hasn't raised any objections to the Marauder.

[Big Tin Man]

Tahawus, on 15 September 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

Rumor has it that Wanderer is the reason that HG hasn't raised any objections to the Marauder.

I HEREBY NOMINATE WANDERER FOR SPACE POPE.

[Tahawus]

Big Tin Man, on 15 September 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

I HEREBY NOMINATE WANDERER FOR SPACE POPE.

Aka, the Primus of Comstar.

[Lily from animove]

I wrote that somewhere alread,y and yes its the only way how informationwarfare will directly affect an element of mwo that is important: damage.

[wanderer]

Quote

As long as each round from my 6 AC2 chain firing mech fires where I'm pointed at I could careless. If they're randomly "diverging" away from my targeting site that would suck.

They would. Of course, if you don't have a target lock, they're pointed at a default point X meters down the line of your crosshairs, so each AC is going to hit in a different spot relative to center of crosshair. This isn't random- if you fire the same AC twice and neither of you move, it'll hit the same spot twice. A different AC/2 on your 'Mech will hit a different spot depending on where it's mounted on your 'Mech- but again, this isn't random- if #1 hits point A and #2 hits point B and neither moves, the second shot from each will hit A and B again. Guns on the same location will have smaller divergence than firing guns from different locations. If you have lock, your guns are all pointing at the same spot on the 'Mech pretty much as usual.

Quote

That'd make your proposal turn all weapons in a Streak-SRM-type of firing mode.

They're converging at the range of the locked target, not on the locked 'Mech per se (which would be disturbingly like oldschool Streaks). If you have the crosshairs on a locked target's arm, you're firing at the arm. If you have a locked target and don't have the target in your sights, your shots will fire along your crosshairs, converge at that distance fed to it by the lock and impact anything in the way normally (and if the end point is further than the locked target's distance, your shots will cross at the convergence point and then radiate outwards until they hit something). If you don't have a locked target, the shots will converge on their default point. In all cases, they're still firing at whatever you point your crosshairs towards- the lockon only gives the shot the distance point at which it's supposed to converge on in meters away from the crosshair.

Quote

Ahem! I want an ECM buff: make ECM disable IFF.

It doesn't even do that in TT. Please, no.

Quote

The likely reason why this feature will not be considered is that it is not noob friendly.

The game actually started with a more complex convergence system that broke the engine. The engine-breaking part is what got it removed, not "It's not noob friendly." This is an engine friendly fix to a long-standing problem that's created a host of secondary problems in it's wake.

Incidentally, PGI thought enough of it to move this now rather popular idea from General Discussion to it's current home. Interest is clearly had.

Edited by wanderer, 15 September 2015 - 01:42 PM.

[bar10jim]

Love this idea.

Set the "unlocked" convergence point at something like 700 meters.

The Pinpoint Pilot Skill could be could be used to manually set the convergence.
Or, the Pilot Skill could be renamed "Acquisition" and reduce lock-on time by 10 or 15%.

The current Guardian ECM can lose the Umbrella Effect and cover just the mech mounting it, which leads us to....
Angel ECM. Maybe 4 tons and 3 or 4 crit slots? Angel gets the Umbrella Effect at maybe 90 meters? 120 meters?

[Hans Von Lohman]

Lily from animove, on 15 September 2015 - 01:33 PM, said:

I wrote that somewhere alread,y and yes its the only way how informationwarfare will directly affect an element of mwo that is important: damage.

I agree.

Until sensors can affect your firepower, nobody will really care. Right now with so much ECM I feel like this game doesn't even have sensors, and all of this talk about information warfare is just a really minor footnote. Everyone who actually plays the game will just look at it, say "So?" and drop back into their current play style of just point and shoot.

This idea of Wanderer's is the first one that does affect firepower, but not enough to ruin it. You can still fight without sensors, just somewhat poorly. Of if you have skills and get used to aiming offsets of your mech, maybe not at all, but you won't be alpha striking that way.

Do it PGI, just give us 100 kilometer weaponry convergence without a lock, and your target's convergence with a lock.

[wanderer]

Quote

Set the "unlocked" convergence point at something like 700 meters.

Given, this means long-range weapons actually might end up "splitting" before hitting the end of their effective range, which could lead to misses. I'd rather not see that happening with "default" firing and would set it further out to "maximum range weapons deal damage". That's what, 2500m or so?

Quote

The Pinpoint Pilot Skill could be could be used to manually set the convergence.
Or, the Pilot Skill could be renamed "Acquisition" and reduce lock-on time by 10 or 15%.

Manual convergence basically would allow you to ignore most or all of the system entirely, and I shudder at what a third party program could pull in speed-inputting range data. Reduced lockon time is a better idea.

Quote

The current Guardian ECM can lose the Umbrella Effect and cover just the mech mounting it, which leads us to....
Angel ECM. Maybe 4 tons and 3 or 4 crit slots? Angel gets the Umbrella Effect at maybe 90 meters? 120 meters?

The ECM umbrella doesn't bother me. It's the Jesusbox Effect of ECM that bothers me, which is why I suggest ECM 1) simply means you have to be closer to get locks vs. denying them entirely as it does now (or extending lock time, which severely favors poking) and 2) works better at covering 'Mechs with better sensor systems, which also means that a group under ECM will likely be detected at different distances. In-universe, ECM is universal as part of a 'Mechs sensor ECCM/ECM package and "cheap", but REALLY good ECM is the Guardian/Angel lines.

Edited by wanderer, 15 September 2015 - 02:02 PM.

[bar10jim]

Hey, I'm just throwing out ideas here.

wanderer, on 15 September 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

Given, this means long-range weapons actually might end up "splitting" before hitting the end of their effective range, which could lead to misses. I'd rather not see that happening with "default" firing and would set it further out to "maximum range weapons deal damage". That's what, 2500m or so?

So set it at 1250m. The divergence at 2500m would be the distance between the mounting points on your mech.

wanderer, on 15 September 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

Manual convergence basically would allow you to ignore most or all of the system entirely, and I shudder at what a third party program could pull in speed-inputting range data. Reduced lockon time is a better idea.

Manual convergence would be a value you set in the mechlab to become the default "unlocked" convergence point. Cannot be changed during play.

wanderer, on 15 September 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

The ECM umbrella doesn't bother me. It's the Jesusbox Effect of ECM that bothers me, which is why I suggest ECM 1) simply means you have to be closer to get locks vs. denying them entirely as it does now (or extending lock time, which severely favors poking) and 2) works better at covering 'Mechs with better sensor systems, which also means that a group under ECM will likely be detected at different distances. In-universe, ECM is universal as part of a 'Mechs sensor ECCM/ECM package and "cheap", but REALLY good ECM is the Guardian/Angel lines.

Again, just some ideas for discussion.

Edited by bar10jim, 15 September 2015 - 03:33 PM.