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A Way To Make Info Warfare Useful So Simple, It's Amazing.


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#161 wanderer

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 10:56 AM

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1. Buff to small mechs, nerf to big mechs.


So in your opinion, this would bring more lighter 'Mechs to the field and reduce the raw power of 'Mechs big enough to one-shot those 'Mechs?

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2. If convergence is set on a certain distance, there will be builds to exploit that


One big reason I want convergence set at "maximum possible range for weapons to damage a target". If I've got it right, the longest ranged weapon is a Gauss Rifle w/Range 5 module, which is a touch under 2200m. Set it around there. If convergence is set inside any optimal weapon range, I agree completely- it will be exploited for sniping builds.

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3. Grouped hardpoints > distanced hardpoints.


Certainly will be, and this also presents some good points. Namely, it reduces the maximum alpha on the worst offenders (say, assaults with Gauss + LPL/PPC or most laservomit builds), and it also creates a trade: having to put your battery in one spot also means that it's far easier to neuter that 'Mech by removing it. Just like shooting the arm off a Dragon-1N cripples it's firepower, it'll mean people building optimized "battery" mounts will also lose far more of that alpha strike if it's damaged or destroyed.

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4. Buff to lasers


If people are firing a "guide laser" first to align the rest of the guns on a Nova arm or similar same-location battery, then there's some spread right there (and a warning for the target to twist and shield). If they're using TAG to guide in the other mounts on the arm, that's one less hardpoint towards an alpha- and it still won't change a lack of convergence with the -other- weapon locations. Either way, it reduces the effect of unlocked shots, and that's part of the idea here.

#162 wanderer

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 11:30 AM

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I'm all for convergence mechanics - just another way to balance mechs around each-other. Nevertheless, my weapons must converge at whatever I'm pointing at no matter what it is. Maybe it might take a couple of seconds, maybe my fire will not be as accurate when target is moving, maybe PPC hits should freeze my convergence for a bit, maybe my damage beyong optimal range will be weaker, but my infra-red sensors still are going to detect distance of a target and converge on it. In no way I'm gonna stand for enemies being transparent to them for no reason. There's hundreds of more sensible ways to encourage scouting.


Convergence used to take time. The engine cannot handle it, and we ended up with really, REALLY weird shooting happening as a result- and the current instant-convergence system. Cone-of-fire has been repeatedly and outright rejected by large chunks of the playerbase because gawd help us if our shots are random in the least. Weird PPC quirks aren't going to make them popular any more than PPCs disrupting ECM has made them popular (other than B33f-like mega-converging beam cannons of combo-death or as similar alpha-combos with Gauss/PPC).

Whatever fix goes in is going to have to be simple enough for the potato code in MWO to handle, and frankly, there isn't many of those. This is one of the few possible answers. If you get instant convergence no matter what, it fixes nothing. Snapshot no-scope super-concentrated hits will remain the dominant force of MWO, as the problem has been since time immemorial, with the delivery only changing by which weapons are nerfed/buffed to deliver them best.

And pray, tell me what encourages scouting? I'm interested. MWO is about shooting giant robots, and scouts are going to be useful only insofar as "we help you shoot giant robots". As Paul's changes (including sensor range) favor light 'Mechs for spotting and keeping 'Mechs shootable, anything that links to this is going to be the MWO face of scouting- that is, lights being dominant -spotters- for their team. "Gunboat" lights like the Firestarter being more shooty than scouty, "scout" lights like the Raven having superior sensor abilities that help them acquire targets sooner and quicker and hold them longer. Or even some mediums. Heck, the Wolverine was supposed to be a heavy scout- not that you'd know it in MWO!

A team that can't keep a constant eye on targets should suffer in their ability to precision-punch them to death. As it is, we're killing 'Mechs without a single reason to even bother with locking them, poking endlessly with noscope instant megastrikes and laservomit. Information is useless in a system where the only information of note is instant, perfect convergence automatically gathered without effort from your rangefinder.

Making people get locks and actually having to deal with more sensors than their MK1 Eyeballs is what it takes to make info warfare meaningful in MWO matches. It has to be a part of things on the shooty level of operating a 'Mech, or it's a vestigial side bit at best and meaningless to almost all.

#163 pyrocomp

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 12:44 PM

View Postwanderer, on 16 September 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

One big reason I want convergence set at "maximum possible range for weapons to damage a target". If I've got it right, the longest ranged weapon is a Gauss Rifle w/Range 5 module, which is a touch under 2200m. Set it around there. If convergence is set inside any optimal weapon range, I agree completely- it will be exploited for sniping builds.

At this point please clarify just how you see exploited 600 m fixed convergence distance for snipping? (Well, at max 740 m for C-ERLPL, but their burn durations makes them less usefull for concentrated damage.) On real map in close to real deathballing?

Edited by pyrocomp, 16 September 2015 - 12:44 PM.


#164 DivineEvil

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 01:12 PM

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Convergence used to take time. The engine cannot handle it, and we ended up with really, REALLY weird shooting happening as a result- and the current instant-convergence system. Cone-of-fire has been repeatedly and outright rejected by large chunks of the playerbase because gawd help us if our shots are random in the least. Weird PPC quirks aren't going to make them popular any more than PPCs disrupting ECM has made them popular (other than B33f-like mega-converging beam cannons of combo-death or as similar alpha-combos with Gauss/PPC).

You do not need to tell me all that, I'm here since CBT.

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Whatever fix goes in is going to have to be simple enough for the potato code in MWO to handle, and frankly, there isn't many of those. This is one of the few possible answers. If you get instant convergence no matter what, it fixes nothing.

It fixes nothing because nothing is broken in that department.

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Snapshot no-scope super-concentrated hits will remain the dominant force of MWO, as the problem has been since time immemorial, with the delivery only changing by which weapons are nerfed/buffed to deliver them best.

I've already wrote in five topics now; We need to address high-alpha abuse everywhere. Range do not makes a particular case. Cutting basic no-heatsink heat capacity is necessary, and it will be better to reach a point, where Ghost-Heat is no longer needed, since it's adressing the same issue with very unintuitive manner and obscure to the player. Until then, alpha-strike meta will persist, and no convergence shenanigans will change that.

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And pray, tell me what encourages scouting? I'm interested. MWO is about shooting giant robots, and scouts are going to be useful only insofar as "we help you shoot giant robots". As Paul's changes (including sensor range) favor light 'Mechs for spotting and keeping 'Mechs shootable, anything that links to this is going to be the MWO face of scouting- that is, lights being dominant -spotters- for their team. "Gunboat" lights like the Firestarter being more shooty than scouty, "scout" lights like the Raven having superior sensor abilities that help them acquire targets sooner and quicker and hold them longer. Or even some mediums. Heck, the Wolverine was supposed to be a heavy scout- not that you'd know it in MWO!

Question is not what encourages scouting. As long as there's a capability to do it and a considerable reward for it, people will do it. Thus, question is what undermines scouting. ECM that is too strong undermines scouting - it will be nerfed. Inability to stay hidden without ECM by equal detection and instant spotting undermines scouting - it will no longer work that way, though I believe more strict values should be in place (300/500/700/900 based on class, or 300-940 based on weight). LRM will benefit highly from spotters and scouts can use RLMs themselves as means of very effective harassment. Plus, PGI might consider adding Arrow VI and L-TAC to add some additional means for indirect fire support.

I can keep forever with that. Anything but messing with direct fire-support and sniping. These never required any locks and should not depend on anything but your aim and target leading. Oh, and from all 55ton mechs, Wolverine is actually closest match for being a brawler, and his name and style supports it.

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A team that can't keep a constant eye on targets should suffer in their ability to precision-punch them to death. As it is, we're killing 'Mechs without a single reason to even bother with locking them, poking endlessly with noscope instant megastrikes and laservomit. Information is useless in a system where the only information of note is instant, perfect convergence automatically gathered without effort from your rangefinder.

I'm beginning to doubt if you're aware of how high-level play goes in MWO, not even speaking about competive leagues. Locating damaged components is important and sometimes determines a victor and a loser in a match. Having a lock on an enemy can differentiate between him taking a double gauss to the face or hitting you with it without return fire. Fighting without locking your target is a common determiner for a raw noob. People like that are losing matches for their team all the time. It seems we're playing two different games, otherwise you're just floating in your presumptions about how "simple" MWO is, and how mindless everybody are.

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Making people get locks and actually having to deal with more sensors than their MK1 Eyeballs is what it takes to make info warfare meaningful in MWO matches. It has to be a part of things on the shooty level of operating a 'Mech, or it's a vestigial side bit at best and meaningless to almost all.

If information means nothing to you, it's your personal problem really. You've used to it as given, and don't realize how much it actually means, and how much it will mean when you're not instantly detected. Simple Ideas, that I can poke someone's metal butt without getting a return fire from his entire team the next second, or that a single poker, that scratched me will not be able to provide instant potential target for his peers from every possible angle, will have their impact. You should really throw your bias aside and use your imagination. My imagination tells me, that your idea will get a terrible backlash from the community.

Edited by DivineEvil, 16 September 2015 - 01:21 PM.


#165 MacCaileanMor

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 01:30 PM

Somebody may have said this but. . . I like this idea if you can adjust weapon convergence range in game (maybe have your mouse wheel change the range). In other words, if you set up on a ridge and see enemy mechs in the distance and they are not targeted by anyone, you can check their range and manually set the convergence range on your weapons. This would still make it possible to snipe but would require a little work. If you are just walking and worried a scout may run up on you at short range you can set the convergence to 200m. Relegating your targeting to early 20th century technology may not be realistic but it would be fun and not much about the game is realistic.

#166 Koniks

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 01:34 PM

I don't think we need more reasons to hit R. We need better mechanics for how we get and deny information about mechs in the first place.

#167 Big Tin Man

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 01:54 PM

View Postpyrocomp, on 16 September 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

At this point please clarify just how you see exploited 600 m fixed convergence distance for snipping? (Well, at max 740 m for C-ERLPL, but their burn durations makes them less usefull for concentrated damage.) On real map in close to real deathballing?


From the previous page:

View PostBig Tin Man, on 15 September 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:


edit: TL;DR--unlocked target convergence of any kind serves to benefit 'alphatardwarriors' shooting at long range. Followed by numbers.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you're missing the issue with having any sort of convergence for an unlocked target. We're talking about mechs that are about 5 meters wide, so it's not that hard to make a slight offset adjustment and set your weapon groups in a left/right config and adjust your aim.

I'm still against having any default convergence point, as it gives the tryhards a magic range where they still fairly effective. For example, let's say weapons converge at 2000m, and I will normalize mechs into a percentage of a mech's width from left arm to right arm (yes, I'm assuming mech's weapons are equally distributed across its width).

Weapon spread///distance
100% of mech width /// 0 meters
50% of mech width /// 1000 meters
0% of mech width (pinpoint) /// 2000 meters

Now let's min/max it and go for an asymmetric load out, assuming only CT, LT and LA are used (or RT, CT, LT)

50% of mech width /// 0 meters
25% of mech width /// 1000 meters
0% of mech width (pinpoint) /// 2000 meters

Even more asymmetric, only LT and LA

25% of mech width /// 0 meters
12.5% of mech width /// 1000 meters
0% of mech width (pinpoint) /// 2000 meters

There is a sweet spot around 1,000 meters for an asymmetric or torso only loadout, where they're still doing full damage, and hitting with a tight enough group that could still focus a particular section of a mech. Convergence should be set at infinity, or else a meta will be built around exploiting the unlocked target convergence.


Now change the distances from 1,000 and 2,000 meters to 300 and 600 meters respectively. You see the problem with fixed convergence now? Fixed convergence favors long ranged attacking. The weapons spread can be gamed that at half of convergence distance, the shot grouping is still very tight.

#168 wanderer

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 02:06 PM

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At this point please clarify just how you see exploited 600 m fixed convergence distance for snipping? (Well, at max 740 m for C-ERLPL, but their burn durations makes them less usefull for concentrated damage.) On real map in close to real deathballing?


I've done plenty of killing at that range, especially in CW. It's not at all hard in group play. Set up, opponent has to come your way, burn target a nice new orifice as you're already bracketed in for a near-perfect converging shot. Duck,reset,repeat.

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It fixes nothing because nothing is broken in that department.


It's been broken pretty much since the day we ended up with instant convergence. Have you missed the meta? Oh, wait...

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We need to address high-alpha abuse everywhere. Range do not makes a particular case. Cutting basic no-heatsink heat capacity is necessary, and it will be better to reach a point, where Ghost-Heat is no longer needed, since it's adressing the same issue with very unintuitive manner and obscure to the player. Until then, alpha-strike meta will persist, and no convergence shenanigans will change that


Protip: Heat never bothered the original Gaussapult, and it won't bother it's ballistic-based successors much either. Again, you'd just shift the meta to the most efficient method of delivering the traditional mega-blast to a single spot and no matter how many times you change the station, the song plays on.

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I'm beginning to doubt if you're aware of how high-level play goes in MWO, not even speaking about competive leagues. Locating damaged components is important and sometimes determines a victor and a loser in a match.


Good comp teams are already drilled as to what you're shooting in advance, as meta generally = predictable. Shoot that Hellbringer in the side torso. Leg the lights. Etc, etc. Heck, that applies to group play in general- you want everyone aiming for the same, vital spot and you want them to know what it is before you even start the match, much less start shooting. Heck, even middling CW squads do that. I generally knew where to shoot in advance hanging out with, say TCAF on drops, while good PUGs would at least be "focus legs" and bad PUGs wouldn't even bother hitting R to begin with OR calling focus.

Even the average player usually knew enough to shoot off the ECM side of an Atlas back in the day when it meant something. No lock required.

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If information means nothing to you, it's your personal problem really. You've used to it as given, and don't realize how much it actually means, and how much it will mean when you're not instantly detected. Simple Ideas, that I can poke someone's metal butt without getting a return fire from his entire team the next second, or that a single poker, that scratched me will not be able to provide instant potential target for his peers from every possible angle, will have their impact.


Quite the opposite. The status quo is "You have MK1 eyeballs because competent players use ECM and you can go entire matches without locks and depending on visual-only."

The meta doesn't have it's damage-dealing impinged by this in the least. You just call focus, shots are aimed without penalty, strike their targets with the same combined efficiency and the meta rolls on unaffected. Lock data isn't needed with VOIP and a competent team. Just see, in-sights, shoot, team shoots at the same agreed-on target, robot fall down go boom in the usual clouds of ECM. Been there. Done that.

#169 Fate 6

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 02:23 PM

This would be great. Not only does it make information warfare important but it simultaneously buffs LRMs

#170 oldradagast

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 03:12 PM

View Postwanderer, on 16 September 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Convergence used to take time. The engine cannot handle it, and we ended up with really, REALLY weird shooting happening as a result- and the current instant-convergence system. Cone-of-fire has been repeatedly and outright rejected by large chunks of the playerbase because gawd help us if our shots are random in the least. Weird PPC quirks aren't going to make them popular any more than PPCs disrupting ECM has made them popular (other than B33f-like mega-converging beam cannons of combo-death or as similar alpha-combos with Gauss/PPC).



That's the part that ticks me off since it would help fix some of the worst problems in the game (boating a few weapons, and mechs with bad hitboxes being easy kills.) if it were implemented.

First, there are plenty of successful games (World of Whatever, etc.) with some random aspect to the aiming, but not enough to make it just "totally random."

Second, this is supposedly a Battletech game... a game in which a random aspect to the hit locations was CRITICAL for the rest of the game to play properly or make sense. That's the whole reason we have armored sections instead of a single hitpoint pool on our center torsos. Instead, they basically give everyone a Clan targeting computer (tabletop version) with no to-hit penalty for free.

It's just such a sad laugh. Everyone wants this to game to "stick to the Lore more" - but heaven forbid they can't pinpoint alpha whatever component they want with a pile of lasers and Gauss rifles at 500+ meters... because that type of sniping is apparently part of Lore... right... :rolleyes:

Edited by oldradagast, 16 September 2015 - 03:14 PM.


#171 DivineEvil

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 03:23 PM

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Protip: Heat never bothered the original Gaussapult, and it won't bother it's ballistic-based successors much either. Again, you'd just shift the meta to the most efficient method of delivering the traditional mega-blast to a single spot and no matter how many times you change the station, the song plays on.

Yep, what bothering it at the moment is charge-up mechanic and a Light mech, that can execute it with one alpha to the back of the torso. Gauss is the heaviest weapon in the entire game, that is specifically made for sniping. Are you having issues with Gauss also? I'm pretty sure now we're playing two different games.

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Good comp teams are already drilled as to what you're shooting in advance, as meta generally = predictable. Shoot that Hellbringer in the side torso. Leg the lights. Etc, etc. Heck, that applies to group play in general- you want everyone aiming for the same, vital spot and you want them to know what it is before you even start the match, much less start shooting.

Yup, but it might happen not to be the best idea. After mech re-balance meta will not be nearly as predictable. Not every Light is easier to leg (Arctic Cheetahs are esier to kill by torso), and focusin Light's legs when he has a hole in a side torso is plain stupid. You might want everone to target the same stuff, but if PGI will reach their goal, you wouldn't be able to tell where that vital spot it beforehand. Information matters, whether you deny it or not.

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Heck, even middling CW squads do that. I generally knew where to shoot in advance hanging out with, say TCAF on drops, while good PUGs would at least be "focus legs" and bad PUGs wouldn't even bother hitting R to begin with OR calling focus.
Dunno, I'm TCAF 2-year veteran and I don't really see much talk about where to shoot. I don not need orders for that. I'm pressing R pretty much all the time, and always see if there's a damaged torso or a leg that I can take off. And I'm pretty sure at least 90% of other CW participants from my unit do exactly the same.

What people do really doesn't matter. What matters is what the best course of action - blindly using your customs and assumptions, or actually having the information to weaken or finish off the enemy faster. Whether or not one player or another is capable of using the information does not concern me. Information has value, that's a fact.

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Quite the opposite. The status quo is "You have MK1 eyeballs because competent players use ECM and you can go entire matches without locks and depending on visual-only."

The meta doesn't have it's damage-dealing impinged by this in the least. You just call focus, shots are aimed without penalty, strike their targets with the same combined efficiency and the meta rolls on unaffected. Lock data isn't needed with VOIP and a competent team. Just see, in-sights, shoot, team shoots at the same agreed-on target, robot fall down go boom in the usual clouds of ECM. Been there. Done that.

Uh, yeah, you have eyes. And personally I don't see an inch of reasoning why direct targeting must be penaltized. High alpha-strike lazor-vomit, sure, its everywhere and requires no effort or loadout sacrifices, but conventional direct fire, not really. Why do you really want that? To make ECM even more obligatory? To make conventional sniping impossible? To make everyone running with SRMs, because nothing pin-pointed would work fine anymore?

Noooo, you're trying to "encourage scouting". it's... confuses me a little.

#172 StandingInFire

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 03:37 PM

View PostDivineEvil, on 16 September 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

... need to address high-alpha abuse everywhere. Range do not makes a particular case. Cutting basic no-heatsink heat capacity is necessary, ... Until then, alpha-strike meta will persist, and no convergence shenanigans will change that.

Having a low heat cap would not prevent high damage alphas, in fact to a certain point it just encourages high alpha sniping by taking a shot than hiding till you cool down, e.g. the most extreme Direstar, or more realistically any 2x gauss build is pretty much heatless.

Convergence effectively lowers the damage of high alphas by spreading the damage across multiple sections, so instead of getting hit for 40 in one section you get hit for 20 in two, that is a big difference.

View PostDivineEvil, on 16 September 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

Question is not what encourages scouting. As long as there's a capability to do it and a considerable reward for it, people will do it. ...

I think your missing the whole point here, this change is while it adds more reward to scouting, is more about reducing the effectiveness of long range high alpha sniping and adding meaning for people to get locks (which in turn adds value to information warfare quirks, modules, and equipment).

View PostDivineEvil, on 16 September 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

I can keep forever with that. Anything but messing with direct fire-support and sniping. These never required any locks and should not depend on anything but your aim and target leading.

You would still be able to snipe, but you would have to stagger your shots or spread your damage across multiple sections, e.g. 2x gauss jagermech vs a target moving from right to left at range without a lock; you lead a bit less with the left gauss and a bit more with the right gauss or take both shots at once and have the couple meter spread of the mech's hardpoints. So if anything it adds some skills to the current lowest skill play style you can have of long range sniping.

View PostDivineEvil, on 16 September 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

... high-level play goes in MWO ... Locating damaged components is important and sometimes determines a victor and a loser in a match.

So this change would encourage pugs to play more like competitive players, this is bad?

#173 wanderer

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 07:09 PM

View PostDivineEvil, on 16 September 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

Yep, what bothering it at the moment is charge-up mechanic and a Light mech, that can execute it with one alpha to the back of the torso. Gauss is the heaviest weapon in the entire game, that is specifically made for sniping. Are you having issues with Gauss also? I'm pretty sure now we're playing two different games.


The Gaussapult was the first. Then the Gaussjager, and all the way up to things like the quad-UAC/10 Direwolf , Mauler AC boats, etc. etc.

Driving up heat problems only will make dakka more efficient. Dakka can and does death-star targets. You change nothing, only the sounds people make when you core them and the frustration level of people using energy weapons outside of the boat-a-geddon.


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Yup, but it might happen not to be the best idea. After mech re-balance meta will not be nearly as predictable. Not every Light is easier to leg (Arctic Cheetahs are esier to kill by torso), and focusin Light's legs when he has a hole in a side torso is plain stupid. You might want everone to target the same stuff, but if PGI will reach their goal, you wouldn't be able to tell where that vital spot it beforehand. Information matters, whether you deny it or not.
Dunno, I'm TCAF 2-year veteran and I don't really see much talk about where to shoot. I don not need orders for that. I'm pressing R pretty much all the time, and always see if there's a damaged torso or a leg that I can take off. And I'm pretty sure at least 90% of other CW participants from my unit do exactly the same.


When I had the chance to run with folks, I was seeing people boring into unlocked targets with mechanical efficiency. I know, I was the guy in the LRM boat behind you watching it happen while getting my own locks on whatever -wasn't- being shot at.

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What people do really doesn't matter. What matters is what the best course of action - blindly using your customs and assumptions, or actually having the information to weaken or finish off the enemy faster. Whether or not one player or another is capable of using the information does not concern me. Information has value, that's a fact.


In an ECM-heavy world, whatever value it has tends to vanish under "kill them by the numbers". I've seen games where locks lasted so little time, I just ended up wading in with my Orion and blasting things with my MPL/MG popguns, as 15 minutes and about 6 dead 'Mechs in, I hadn't seen a red box last more than 5-6 seconds. At least half the enemy team had ECM capacity.

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Uh, yeah, you have eyes. And personally I don't see an inch of reasoning why direct targeting must be penaltized. High alpha-strike lazor-vomit, sure, its everywhere and requires no effort or loadout sacrifices, but conventional direct fire, not really. Why do you really want that? To make ECM even more obligatory? To make conventional sniping impossible? To make everyone running with SRMs, because nothing pin-pointed would work fine anymore?


I want ECM to go away as it exists now, as Jesusbox breaks the entire sensor game anyway. I want alpha damage to drop or end up having drawbacks, as we're up to the point of OSKing mediums in many cases. I want to stop seeing people casually OSK'ing lights and mediums with 180 degree noscope LPL snapshots. But I don't want them to whiff. I just want the damage to not all magically hit the same point like Luke Skywalker torpedoing an exhaust port with point-click-destroy.

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Noooo, you're trying to "encourage scouting". it's... confuses me a little.


Listen. Just. Frickin. Listen.

The PTS makes sensors less range-y as weight class increases. This means the lighter (and BAP-equpped/sensor range mod help here most) 'Mech is the one who not only is ideal for finding the enemy, but keeping them in sight at safer distances. allowing their big brothers to get locks and fire. You can park that Jagermech in a nice nook, but it's the Raven with the "spyglass" of superior sensors who can get close enough, cut through the ECM, and give that sniper the sensor data that turns relatively inaccurate shots into precision snipes without getting it OR the sniper exposed and exploded. Why? Because if you don't have those scouts, the other team is getting locked shots and you aren't. Of course, if you both have scouts, they're likely going to be trying to help their team kill the enemy scouts FIRST, lest you end up with that Raven off in the distance getting shots sprayed all over the place while it's getting whoever's bold enough to come out nailed with it's superior sensors. Or if you do decide to get closer, covering the big guys with it's ECM so they get lock first and hence again get to punch big holes in you first whilst your shots are hitting 2-3 armor sections at once.

That's how scouts and frickin' sensor range and ECM can work for all guns, not just lolRMs. Simply by saying "no perfect convergence without a lock". Little scout guys are your mobile eyes, big guys bring the best boom to the targets your scouts eyeball, and keeping track of opponents matters most the whole game.

#174 DivineEvil

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 11:34 PM

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Having a low heat cap would not prevent high damage alphas, in fact to a certain point it just encourages high alpha sniping by taking a shot than hiding till you cool down, e.g. the most extreme Direstar, or more realistically any 2x gauss build is pretty much heatless.


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The Gaussapult was the first. Then the Gaussjager, and all the way up to things like the quad-UAC/10 Direwolf ,Mauler AC boats, etc. etc.


Driving up heat problems only will make dakka more efficient. Dakka can and does death-star targets. You change nothing, only the sounds people make when you core them and the frustration level of people using energy weapons outside of the boat-a-geddon.

It would not prevent them, it will make them much less efficient, because at any point when you're trying to alpha everything you see, you'd overheat yourself and die, rather than just kill the offender one after another.

Like I've said, I see no an element of imbalance with Dual Gauss in either shape. It was a big offender before the charge mechanics, and it no longer is. It's the laser-vomit, that gives almost identical damage potential with little to none of enforced requirements or weaknesses.

When you see a typical Gauss/Laser Ebon Jaguar, it's not the Gauss that is a problem, but it's lasers, that it can use to defend itself, unhindered by anything. Don't even talking about a DireWhales, they're born with a target on their backs and deserve to be good for what they're loaded up for. Each Gauss and a ballistic weapon is a huge loadout investment and deserve to work as it is intended to. And yeah, some dakka's, like aforementioned UAC/10 Dires are limited by heat capacity.


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Convergence effectively lowers the damage of high alphas by spreading the damage across multiple sections, so instead of getting hit for 40 in one section you get hit for 20 in two, that is a big difference.

Convergence will effectively going to make any independent Solo Queue marksmanship abandoned, by enforcing counterintuitive rules. It would not just lower the damage, but will make them almost impossible. I cannot imagine how new players are going to play MWO, when they're going to continuously try to hit a target, and would not be able to, since all their rounds would just go past the target for no apparent reason. Useless bug reports will perpetuate indefinitely.

But please, do give me an example of a long range alpha, that can strike me with 40 damage pinpoint. I'm curious what the hell is that you're ralking about.

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I think your missing the whole point here, this change is while it adds more reward to scouting, is more about reducing the effectiveness of long range high alpha sniping and adding meaning for people to get locks (which in turn adds value to information warfare quirks, modules, and equipment).

Im not missing it, I'm just presupposing that that the end result will make sniping as a whole completely meaningless. It would impede snipers to the point of denial on a basis, that they themselves cannot control. Wanderer basically just suggesting to address a problem with a solution of unequal scale. The same way some people are arguing for balancing IS/Clan by weapon calibration.

If you or anyone personally do not value getting locks, doesn't means there's no value. I've already elaborated on that.


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You would still be able to snipe, but you would have to stagger your shots or spread your damage across multiple sections, e.g. 2x gauss jagermech vs a target moving from right to left at range without a lock; you lead a bit less with the left gauss and a bit more with the right gauss or take both shots at once and have the couple meter spread of the mech's hardpoints. So if anything it adds some skills to the current lowest skill play style you can have of long range sniping.

Do you realize, that when you leading your target, you're already converging at the ground beside it?

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So this change would encourage pugs to play more like competitive players, this is bad?

No. It will make the game a pain for everyone, for no good reason.

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When I had the chance to run with folks, I was seeing people boring into unlocked targets with mechanical efficiency. I know, I was the guy in the LRM boat behind you watching it happen while getting my own locks on whatever -wasn't- being shot at.
It's a question of focus from multiple sources, not of how precise one can be without locks. It is also not a question of locks being maningless, but the question of it is possible to acquire a lock in the first place.

I'm regularly sniping for my unit with my Dual-Gauss JM6-A, mostly on Boreal Vault, and I still would be very, very grateful to have locks to disable components already damaged and to track enemy position and movement. It's not that I'm so ultra-pro killing machine that I do not need locks, it's just that I do not have them, and working with what I do have, which at the ranges in question results in 3 kills and roughly 600-700 total damage tops with a mech, that has 1200 damage potential (unless we're playing against Davions or something. These guys are hilarious).

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In an ECM-heavy world, whatever value it has tends to vanish under "kill them by the numbers". I've seen games where locks lasted so little time, I just ended up wading in with my Orion and blasting things with my MPL/MG popguns, as 15 minutes and about 6 dead 'Mechs in, I hadn't seen a red box last more than 5-6 seconds. At least half the enemy team had ECM capacity.

I want ECM to go away as it exists now, as Jesusbox breaks the entire sensor game anyway. I want alpha damage to drop or end up having drawbacks, as we're up to the point of OSKing mediums in many cases. I want to stop seeing people casually OSK'ing lights and mediums with 180 degree noscope LPL snapshots. But I don't want them to whiff. I just want the damage to not all magically hit the same point like Luke Skywalker torpedoing an exhaust port with point-click-destroy.

Then address ECM, not a set of totally unrelated mechanics. If I remember correctly, PGI is planning to cut ECm cover range in half, which means that the effective coverage will be 4 times smaller. That's a good enough start I think.

What I'm trying to make you understand, is that when you have an issue, and you realize there is an issue, it is also important to determine what the source of that issue is, and then address it directly. If there's TTK problem, you address TTK, not some particular mech, that stands out from it. If there's a problem with IS/Clan balance, you adress IS/Clan balance, not the weapon balance. And so on. All the values and features in a game are interconnected. If you're trying to fix an issue trough an invalid node, you're getting something like Ghost-Heat, or present IS quirk system. Hoping to fix one issue, you're creating sever new issues, and trying to fixing them, you're creating even more. Or you're ending up "healing an arm by amputating it".

If PGI would consider something alike to what you're suggesting, we'll end up not with "Luke Skywalker torpedo run", but with "Clone troopers and rebels unable to hit each-other with particle rifles on 10m distances".

Edited by DivineEvil, 16 September 2015 - 11:50 PM.


#175 pyrocomp

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Posted 17 September 2015 - 02:39 AM

View PostBig Tin Man, on 16 September 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

Now change the distances from 1,000 and 2,000 meters to 300 and 600 meters respectively. You see the problem with fixed convergence now? Fixed convergence favors long ranged attacking. The weapons spread can be gamed that at half of convergence distance, the shot grouping is still very tight.

Really, that depends on Mech model and weapons location (individual). I really vote for the fixed convergence at optimum range for each wepon. And, note, this means that different wepons converge at different distances on the same mech at the same time, thus increasing spread across unlocked target and lowering the impact of tight clustering of hardpoints. But, I admit, it encourages boating of alike weapons, but this is yet to be adressed in different way, I think. On top of that, this does not favour long ranges. Just calculate the efficiency for the case when a Dire or a KCrab with widely spread hardpoints tries to hit without lock that face hugging Spider or Locust. Chances are, that with cleaver positioning the Light mech will recieve no damage at all.
So fixed convergence at optimal range may unaffect long-rangers at long range at all, but will weaken them at close range significanly. Which I gather is a better result than just universal nerf everywhere, which is easier to achive by simply lowering damage of each and every weapon. More choises and more place for brawlers (with BAPs :) ), I hope.

#176 Greyhart

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Posted 17 September 2015 - 02:10 PM

I think the thing that really says something needs to be done is that even with the jesus box at full strength the favoured tactic appears to be to sit under your own ecm cover and snipe at the opponent whilst they sit under their ecm and snipe at you.

this makes for a very boring match if you are specced for short range.

This suggestion should at least encourage people to move forward as they will need the locks to get good damage even if they are really good at squinting at the screen (which seems to be the most needed skill in the game)

#177 Big Tin Man

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Posted 17 September 2015 - 03:34 PM

View PostDivineEvil, on 16 September 2015 - 11:34 PM, said:

I'm regularly sniping for my unit with my Dual-Gauss JM6-A, mostly on Boreal Vault


I found the source of DivineEvil's real issue. This would hurt his precious dual gauss Jager, and TCAF can't have their precious meta messed with. Yes, I've play against TCAF on Boreal and come to open the gate and been slapped by a firing line of 10 dual gauss Jagers. Sorry this idea takes your easy mode button away. What if I told you there were other sniper builds? Are you just sad that this hurts your precious Jager?

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As for 40 point ranged PPFLD, I would direct you to the following builds:

50 points--DWF/KCG--2xERPPC, 2xGauss (DWF-A can run 3xERPPC and 2xGauss for a 60 point PPFLD strike)
40 points--Awesome/Warhawk/Anything over 70 tons--4xERPPC
40 points--CFT 3D, Ilya, On1-K--2xGauss, PPC
Banshee's, Executioners and Maulers can be made to run a 40 pt+ PPFLD build, but they have better options.

Honorable mentions, 35pt PPFLD
Misery/Banshee/Timber wolf(not common)/Jagermech(not common)/Cat K2/CTF--2xERPPC, Gauss

Many of these builds are asymmetric and would not suffer as bad as the Jager from a lack of convergence. Get Creative.

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This idea addresses several problems Evil, TTK is too short, big laservomit alpha's when you turn the wrong corner and someone blindly alpha's you, ECM/COUNTER ECM/UAV/BAP/Tag/NARC/Targeting all need to be important, giving lights a role and making them less fragile without superquirks (aka 4% lights in the solo queue, lol). Yes, ECM requires an adjustment alongside this but it has needed fixing for a long time.

And if you're targeting mechs as much as you say you are, YOU WILL NOT SEE ANY DIFFERENCE. Let that one soak in.

#178 Team Chevy86

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 06:39 PM

Bumping this because it's still a really good idea and should be considered. A nerf/rework to ecm would have to be released alongside it for obvious reasons, but so far it's the best idea out there

#179 Tahawus

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 07:53 PM

An idea that has grown on me as a compromise.

The more I think on it, I'm ok with having weapons converge at their optimal range. I.e. unlocked Med. lasers all converge at 270m, while Gauss converge at 660m.

If a dual gauss rifle mech (with a BIG "yes, I'm compensating for other inadequacies" bumper sticker) is willing to wait until I'm at 660m to get both rifles on target, that's ok, the number of weapons I can return fire with is dramatically larger than at close to 2000m (regardless of the actual damage they're doing at that range). Gauss, in particular, if they default to convergence at 660m, will be at 2x the spread of the weapons on the mech at max range because the slugs will have crossed paths at 660m and will then travel an additional 1320m before vanishing in an ineffectual puff of smoke. Yes, the DW with two gauss on one arm remains a threat (until someone takes their arm and much of their hitting power).

In terms of point damage potential at range, the ER PPC converging at ~800m does more damage, but if someone can hit me at that range with two or more of them after the close to 1 second travel time and a masterful job of leading me, then they deserve the credit (or I deserve the blame for standing still).

Bluntly put, the yes, this encourages boating weapons that are either the same, or have similar range and projectile speeds, and putting them in the same location, but having either a relatively short range of very high lethality, or a significant vulnerability is ok, because only an idiot would choose to stand off with a mech at it's most deadly range without either choosing to close or open the distance and single location destructions are relatively easy.

This also encourages weapon diversity and the development of the skills to fire the right weapon group, without a lock during the period of time that a target is within optimal range (a skill that I respect greatly).

Edited by Tahawus, 18 September 2015 - 07:55 PM.


#180 Macksheen

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 08:43 PM

Instead of a static range, why not set the convergence range of non locked targets at plus/minus some value ..., maybe 20%. Pilot skill drops that some, maybe to 10.

Do this on the shot, hsr uses that as the reference point. Each weapon may have different value. If the target is close, say 200 m, the aim points for the weapons would be at 190 to 210, enough to maybe hit different locations or miss. Tweak value as needed.

Locked uses the actual range.

Edited by Macksheen, 18 September 2015 - 08:49 PM.






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