566 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Deathlike, on 14 September 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

I think you need to look @ the 7ML+Gauss build in context.

An Enforcer with its quirks is running 5ML+Gauss with a 255XL. This is far more mobile and already has more potential than a 7ML+Gauss Hero Marauder.

Considering the state of the Orion, it isn't too much of a high bar to beat it (the jury is still out on the laservomit Black Knight)... so to worry about the Hero Marauder is kind unfounded IMO.

The enforcer has range quirks on its medium lasers... 331 m I think? That helps with a Gauss vomit build.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

So we have 63 Firepower (actually it looks like 58 to me), but it runs hot, and is dependent on Engine HS to get there.
So which other Marauder (or other Heavy mech) is going to get to 63 Firepower?

I appreciate you guys taking up the challenge of building the best MAD-HB2, but you may have proven my point that the MAD-HB2 mechs is too powerful if given a 300 engine?

(I would also like to point out that 7x MPL is significantly less heat than 2xLL + 5ML but similar damage). So what other Heavy mechs can measure up to 57 Damage (or 63 if you feel froggy)?

If the answer is none, then the Bounty Hunter is too powerful. And we haven't even talked about jump jets yet, that is all advantage, if you don't like them pull them.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 14 September 2015 - 07:44 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 14 September 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

Would anyone even really be upset if the Bounty Hunter got a 360 cap like the other Marauders?

STD builds are going to crap out around 300 anyway and XL builds are going to need the extra speed to survive with those hitboxes.

275 is laughably bad, 300 would be barely passable. 325 would be acceptable - but as an IS mech, with IS tech and with Stalker or Catapult style hitboxes 360 wouldn't be OP IMO.

Agent 0 Fortune would apparently stage an Occupy Movement sit in and bra burning......

I'd probably not like it. It DOES get more hardpoints. Whether it can use em or not, well is debatable, but it should come at the cost of SOMETHING.

But yeah, a 275 is just bad.

A 300 I think will be required to be viable...a 320-325 to be "edgy".

I do feel anymore would be too much, personally.

[Bishop Steiner]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 14 September 2015 - 07:43 PM, said:

So we have 63 Firepower (actually it looks like 58 to me), but it runs hot, and is dependent on Engine HS to get there.
So which other Marauder (or other Heavy mech) is going to get to 63 Firepower?

I appreciate you guys taking up the challenge of building the best MAD-HB2, but you may have proven my point that the MAD-HB2 mechs is too powerful if given a 300 engine?

(I would also like to point out that 7x MPL is significantly less heat than 2xLL + 5ML but similar damage). So what other Heavy mechs can measure up to 57 Damage (or 63 if you feel froggy)?

If the answer is none, then the Bounty Hunter is too powerful. And we haven't even talked about jump jets yet, that is all advantage, if you don't like them pull them.

if Alpha was the ONLY measure, you might, MIGHT, have a point.

Hardpoint location dictates actual usability, as does speed. 7 MPL in a 70 kph mech? TOAST unless you run it against some Medium Mechs.

Stop focusing on one dimension.

Considering the 5M can pack a 350xl, for 83 kph, an AC10, 5 MPL, 4 JJs and 17 DHS (which is WAY more than it needs)? That'll torch your mythical 7 MPL 70 kph BH2 any day of the week, being cooler, just as hard hitting, having range capability, and MASSIVE agility over it.

I can theory craft other BH2 Destroyers, on the other chassis, if you want.

(350 std, 5 MPL, 2 xASRM4 5D with 4 JJ, anyone? or a 360xl, 4 MPL, 1 LPL and 2xSRM4?)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 September 2015 - 07:53 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 14 September 2015 - 07:43 PM, said:

So we have 63 Firepower (actually it looks like 58 to me), but it runs hot, and is dependent on Engine HS to get there.
So which other Marauder (or other Heavy mech) is going to get to 63 Firepower?

I appreciate you guys taking up the challenge of building the best MAD-HB2, but you may have proven my point that the MAD-HB2 mechs is too powerful if given a 300 engine?

(I would also like to point out that 7x MPL is significantly less heat than 2xLL + 5ML but similar damage). So what other Heavy mechs can measure up to 57 Damage (or 63 if you feel froggy)?

If the answer is none, then the Bounty Hunter is too powerful. And we haven't even talked about jump jets yet, that is all advantage, if you don't like them pull them.

3LL and Gauss will be an all around more effective build, much better overall range, and better sustained fire. The 58 (you are right, math fail) alpha build is gimmicky and strong, but the fact that two shots will put you at 100% heat basically, makes it unappealing. It will NOT be the best build in a top tier settings.

7 MPL, has a range of 242 m. Much wow. I don't think that qualifies as a competitive build if you have to brawl with an XL engine and a Gauss in the shoulder.

The Grasshopper can get close to that, the Black Knight will reach it with 3 LL and 6 MLs.

[Wintersdark]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 14 September 2015 - 07:43 PM, said:

So we have 63 Firepower (actually it looks like 58 to me), but it runs hot, and is dependent on Engine HS to get there.
So which other Marauder (or other Heavy mech) is going to get to 63 Firepower?

I appreciate you guys taking up the challenge of building the best MAD-HB2, but you may have proven my point that the MAD-HB2 mechs is too powerful if given a 300 engine?

(I would also like to point out that 7x MPL is significantly less heat than 2xLL + 5ML but similar damage). So what other Heavy mechs can measure up to 57 Damage (or 63 if you feel froggy)?

If the answer is none, then the Bounty Hunter is too powerful. And we haven't even talked about jump jets yet, that is all advantage, if you don't like them pull them.

Firepower rating is irrelevant, if it's too hot to use it more than once. Using MPL's gives you a very limited range, so it's not comparable to what you're getting when you're running Clan laser vomit. A STD300 BH2 mounts at most 16DHS alongside those 7 MPL's. Without quirks, that 16DHS 7MPL 2JJ Marauder isn't accomplishing much at all. And, amusingly, has some 12 tons unusable in that configuration.

Add a ballistic, and you lose that number of slots in DHS.

[MechWarrior5152251]

During the Jump Snipe Meta lots of 70 ton Cataphracs were pumping out 1200 damage matches with 275 engines. Now that you can't jump more than 5 ft you don't see them anymore:(

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 September 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

3LL and Gauss will be an all around more effective build, much better overall range, and better sustained fire. The 58 (you are right, math fail) alpha build is gimmicky and strong, but the fact that two shots will put you at 100% heat basically, makes it unappealing. It will NOT be the best build in a top tier settings.

7 MPL, has a range of 242 m. Much wow. I don't think that qualifies as a competitive build if you have to brawl with an XL engine and a Gauss in the shoulder.

The Grasshopper can get close to that, the Black Knight will reach it with 3 LL and 6 MLs.

242 meters and 70 kph ftw!!! gonna really threaten all the LL+Goose builds out there!

MechWarrior5152251, on 14 September 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

During the Jump Snipe Meta lots of 70 ton Cataphracs were pumping out 1200 damage matches with 275 engines. Now that you can't jump more than 5 ft you don't see them anymore:(

70 ton mech also went a little faster than a 75 tonner.

Also, those matches were largely static.

[bad arcade kitty]

Ultimatum X, on 14 September 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

XL builds are going to need the extra speed to survive with those hitboxes.

people are always scared about non humanoid hitboxes
i read an old thread where people were scared about possible stormcrow's terrible hitboxes, heh

marauder can easily be as good hitbox-wise as stalker or timber

[Wintersdark]

GHR-5H

7 MPL, 16DHS. Same firepower.

STD325 engine, 3JJ. 83kph, essentially the same armor, better hitboxes, better hardpoint locations. This totally crushes a 7MPL BH2, without any effort at all. Faster, more agile, same firepower, 5 tons lighter.

[Bishop Steiner]

bad arcade kitty, on 14 September 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

people are always scared about non humanoid hitboxes
i read an old thread where people were scared about possible stormcrow's terrible hitboxes, heh

marauder can easily be as good hitbox-wise as stalker or timber

stalkers have horrible ST hitboxes, which is why they never run XLs, unless Underhive MissileVomit, and the TBR only gets away with it because of Clan XLs.

[Wintersdark]

bad arcade kitty, on 14 September 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

people are always scared about non humanoid hitboxes
i read an old thread where people were scared about possible stormcrow's terrible hitboxes, heh

marauder can easily be as good hitbox-wise as stalker or timber

No, you misunderstand.

The problem with the Marauder is it'll have the same hitbox issue the King Crab or Stalker have - huge side torsos. This may be good from the front (as per the stalker) but - also like the stalker - the issue people raise here is the Marauder will be extremely XL unfriendly due to the length of it's sides. You just can't cover them.

Nobody thinks the MAD will have bad hitboxes per sey. They'll probably be fine. But they will be absolutely XL unfriendly. The only alternative is them being utterly broken where you can hit the CT easily from the sides, and that's a very bad thing.

[XX Sulla XX]

bad arcade kitty, on 14 September 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

you are way to spoiled with clan top tier heavies if you think that summoner sucks
it's the fastest 'heavy' heavy which runs like 93.5 kmh with the speed tweak and its +5% speed quirk (and has c-xl so it can lose a side torso)
it has 20.7 tons of podspace, 21 with 6 armor on the head which is enough for 1 gauss 1 ppc, 2 ppc 1 uac5, 2 uac5 3 ml, 5 ssrm-6 etc

overall summoner is better than most of is heavies

Most IS heavies are terrible. All you are showing is a balance problem not that the Summoner is good.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 14 September 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

No, you misunderstand.

The problem with the Marauder is it'll have the same hitbox issue the King Crab or Stalker have - huge side torsos. This may be good from the front (as per the stalker) but - also like the stalker - the issue people raise here is the Marauder will be extremely XL unfriendly due to the length of it's sides. You just can't cover them.

Nobody thinks the MAD will have bad hitboxes per sey. They'll probably be fine. But they will be absolutely XL unfriendly. The only alternative is them being utterly broken where you can hit the CT easily from the sides, and that's a very bad thing.

AKA, it can have the Stalker Problem, or the Catapult Conundrum.

Or, compromise, and be bad with both types of engines.

(And for the record, the Catapult is NOT XL friendly..... it's just got such a big CT that you are dead anyhow, so you might as well pack more speed and firepower before you go. I really hate it when people act like having Giga-CT means "XL Friendly". SMH)

[Roadkill]

Ultimatum X, on 14 September 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

Would anyone even really be upset if the Bounty Hunter got a 360 cap like the other Marauders?

I'm sure some people would be. I wouldn't care for the very reasons you're about to list...

Quote

STD builds are going to crap out around 300 anyway and XL builds are going to need the extra speed to survive with those hitboxes.

275 is laughably bad, 300 would be barely passable. 325 would be acceptable - but as an IS mech, with IS tech and with Stalker or Catapult style hitboxes 360 wouldn't be OP IMO.

I can buy the argument, though, that the BH should pay something for its extra hardpoint. Even if its cap was lowered to 340 (vs 360)... something.

I don't think it would be the best Marauder even with its cap set at 360, but I also don't think it would be crippled with its cap at 325.

275 is crippled. 300 is at least hobbled if not crippled.

[XX Sulla XX]

Ultimatum X, on 14 September 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

Would anyone even really be upset if the Bounty Hunter got a 360 cap like the other Marauders?

STD builds are going to crap out around 300 anyway and XL builds are going to need the extra speed to survive with those hitboxes.

275 is laughably bad, 300 would be barely passable. 325 would be acceptable - but as an IS mech, with IS tech and with Stalker or Catapult style hitboxes 360 wouldn't be OP IMO.

Exactly

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Wintersdark, on 14 September 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

GHR-5H
7 MPL, 16DHS. Same firepower.
STD325 engine, 3JJ. 83kph, essentially the same armor, better hitboxes, better hardpoint locations. This totally crushes a 7MPL BH2, without any effort at all. Faster, more agile, same firepower, 5 tons lighter.

Now add a Gauss Rifle on the Marauder and compare damage. We already know for a fact is that the MAD-HB2 is top damage dog of the heavy weight class.

The counter argument to the previous challenge is "damage isn't everything". I'm already satisfied that the MAD-HB2 has a niche, isn't' it enough to be the best at something (in this case damage), does it really have the be the best at everything.

You seem very concerned that the PAY mech must be the best mech. did you forget the concept of free-to-play and pay-to-win?

[Roadkill]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 14 September 2015 - 07:43 PM, said:

I appreciate you guys taking up the challenge of building the best MAD-HB2, but you may have proven my point that the MAD-HB2 mechs is too powerful if given a 300 engine?

LOL not at all. In fact what we're proving is that it's almost comically easy to out-perform any build you can think of for the Bounty Hunter.

You're the one who thinks a 300-engined BH would be too powerful. Yet you have yet to produce any kind of build at all, let alone one that's competitive. We're not even asking for OP... just produce something competitive!

Until you do, your claims are just hot air.

[Ultimax]

Brody319, on 14 September 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

me? No
Others? Most likely.

To hell with them.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 14 September 2015 - 07:43 PM, said:

So we have 63 Firepower (actually it looks like 58 to me), but it runs hot, and is dependent on Engine HS to get there.
So which other Marauder (or other Heavy mech) is going to get to 63 Firepower?

I appreciate you guys taking up the challenge of building the best MAD-HB2, but you may have proven my point that the MAD-HB2 mechs is too powerful if given a 300 engine?

(I would also like to point out that 7x MPL is significantly less heat than 2xLL + 5ML but similar damage). So what other Heavy mechs can measure up to 57 Damage (or 63 if you feel froggy)?

If the answer is none, then the Bounty Hunter is too powerful. And we haven't even talked about jump jets yet, that is all advantage, if you don't like them pull them.

Are you trying to drown your own credibility?


Go ahead, please post this build so I can dismantle your argument.

Bishop Steiner, on 14 September 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

Agent 0 Fortune would apparently stage an Occupy Movement sit in and bra burning......

To hell with him.

[Bishop Steiner]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 14 September 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

Now add a Gauss Rifle on the Marauder and compare damage. We already know for a fact is that the MAD-HB2 is top damage dog of the heavy weight class.

The counter argument to the previous challenge is "damage isn't everything". I'm already satisfied that the MAD-HB2 has a niche, isn't' it enough to be the best at something (in this case damage), does it really have the be the best at everything.

You seem very concerned that the PAY mech must be the best mech. did you forget the concept of free-to-play and pay-to-win?

so, now you are saying a mech can't be the best at anything? Even a tiny laughable niche, without being p2W?

Dude. I give up.

OH, as for adding a Gauss, well,, there goes 3 of your already stretched to the limit DHS (12 tons left before Gauss...so actually, I guess...take away 5 so you have ammo?). So yeah.... sorry. but nope. Try again?

So, 70 kph, (does this even have JJs now?), 7 MPL + Goose on.....11 DHS?

And again...so doing one very niche thing.... not even very well...makes it the best version, HOW?

Plus, you seem concerned that your (S) 3R be the Best....or you won't buy the pack...since the (S) is PAY only, ....... Pot Calling Kettle black? (Since your whole threat ultimatum has been about not buying the special edition pack)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 September 2015 - 08:21 PM.