16 replies to this topic

[Writhenn]

After seeing Pauls post regarding mechs being balanced around sensors, mobility, armor and firepower, I am unsure if PGI is going to proper balance this mech and the Gargoyle. In the current meta, both these mechs are trumped by the direwolf, somewhat the warhawk and to the same degree, the Stalker 4N and King Crab. So I'm going to go on a detailed post about what I saw on the PTS, and what should be PGI's direction with the Executioner. If anyone is concerned, I play for EmP, often stream me playing the Executioner, and probably am the most proficient pilot in it currently.

So lets look at what it brings to the table. 8 tons of Class 1 Jump jets which are still laughable when it comes to jump capability. I don't know if PGI is capable of JJ quirks, but this mech still needs some love when it comes to JJ height and acceleration. The mech also carries a "Heavy Force 380XL", which is a massive engine. It puzzles me why the torso range on this thing is the same as a direwolf since it has only about half the available podspace and the engine is so much larger. It should be able to torso twist like no other, it's such a huge engine devoted to it, gimping the torso twist is an unneccesary nerf to a mech that doesn't really boast that much firepower.

4 tons are dedicated to Mark 4 MASC. This is the Mechs only saving grace, as it makes side peeking simply graceful in a 95 ton assault walker. But MASC currently is in a gimped state for this mech. Let's refer to the Mechs Sarna page: http://www.sarna.net...%28Gladiator%29

In MWO, this thing moves at 64-65ish without speed tweak, which matches up with Sarna. But MASC on sarna gives this things a 22-23ish KPH speed boost, while as MWO only gives about 13KPH. With speed tweak, the Executioner needs to hit ~91KPH. MASC itself has too slow of a recharge rate as well, the duration is fine currently as it shouldn't be something that can just be held down almost indefinitely. I'd suggest hastening the recharge by 15-20% percent per second. What separates top tier players of the Executioner is proper use of MASC, and if this is going to be a highlight of the mech, it needs some love.

Now let's get to payload and what I saw on the PTS. You're given about 25-26 free tons for weapons and equipment depending on how much armor you run with. This is about equivalent to most heavies. The firepower/alpha this thing can run with on most meta builds is usually between 50-57 on most "meta" builds. It's equivalent to most TBR, EBJ and some HBR builds and I can honestly say its balanced as far as a clan assault goes.

What bothered me on the PTS was that taking the D-energy torsos gimped the Executioner in mobility. And while I can understand the neccessity to prevent energy boating by adding these quirks, this mech isn't one that can effectively boat a large number of energy hardpoints. The space devoted to MASC, JJ and Ferro prevent this by limiting the number of DHS taken for energy boating to be viable. All the torsos shouldn't detract from the Executioners mobility at all, as you're stripping it's only perk. The non energy/ballistic torsos should have the benefit of added structure or armor(All the Left Torsos except the EXE-D, and somewhat on the A, Prime and B Right Torsos). If you're not taking the high mounted weapons, give it extra toughness. You should not be punished for taking a high mounted hard points that really breath life into this mech.

The right arm needs added armor, less so with the D arm because it can boat lasers. It's often used as a shielding arm, so the added armor/structure would be nice to see. The EXE-A left arm allows to mount energy on the arms without suffering low hard points, again nerfs to this mech do not need to be added if someone were to take it. Simply add armor, structure or some weapon quirk to the others to make it more balanced. As far as the legs go, having one variant with Accell/Decell, another with structure, another with turn rate etc. was a good way of adding variety to the legs.

TLDR version:
1. The mech has mediocre firepower for 95tons
2. Armor and mobility should be it's shining points, thus do not slap mobility nerfs to the EXE-D torsos. Give the non D torsos more armor/structure to compensate for their lack of high hard points.
3. MASC needs a 7-8KPH speed buff and 15-20% recharge buff.
4. The torso twist range needs to be more than that of the Direwolf, it's gimped for no reason currently
5. The Class 1 JJ's need some love in height mostly. Acceleration is still mediocre, but max height is still an issue. Pop sniping is not viable in this thing at all, so there's no worry on PGI's end for that.

Fast assaults have always been gimped since the clan introduction due to the insane firepower of the Direwolf. It would be nice if finally PGI gave both the Executioner and Gargoyle some love. They may not carry the most weapons pay load, but give the the armor and mobility so that they are feared on the battlefield, not a free kill.

[Chagatay]

Gargoyle is boss. An extremely dangerous mech when ignored (which it often is because it doesn't have that warhawk/direwolf/timberwolf silhouette).

[Writhenn]

Chagatay, on 14 September 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

Gargoyle is boss. An extremely dangerous mech when ignored (which it often is because it doesn't have that warhawk/direwolf/timberwolf silhouette).

How is this even relevant to this post?

[Bishop Six]

My experiences are contrary to yours.

For me the Executioner is a really big badass on battlefield, i dont fear most of the crabs, dires or warhawks.

In short, here are my points:

1. 95 tons with 65 kph (71,3 kph) is quite fast, i have good mobility in fight
2. for me the very first mech except lights to use small lasers in a efficient way
3. imo Exes idea are many smaller weapons, not the big ones. Combined with the good speed, you can go in the brawl very fast and also go out a hot zone
4. with Mask it is a joy to step out of cover, shoot and going back. Really fast, really surprising, much damage.
5. very flexible setups with the omnipods

Examples:

6xSL, 2xUAC5, 1xML, 2xLRM5
4xSL, 3xML, 2xLPL
7xSL, 1xUAC10, 4xML

I regularly reach very good results with that configs (and some others) and i really feel as an executioner on battlefield.

Fast, mobile, surprising, deadly.

[Writhenn]

Bishop Six, on 15 September 2015 - 03:43 AM, said:

My experiences are contrary to yours.

For me the Executioner is a really big badass on battlefield, i dont fear most of the crabs, dires or warhawks.

In short, here are my points:

1. 95 tons with 65 kph (71,3 kph) is quite fast, i have good mobility in fight
2. for me the very first mech except lights to use small lasers in a efficient way
3. imo Exes idea are many smaller weapons, not the big ones. Combined with the good speed, you can go in the brawl very fast and also go out a hot zone
4. with Mask it is a joy to step out of cover, shoot and going back. Really fast, really surprising, much damage.
5. very flexible setups with the omnipods

Examples:

6xSL, 2xUAC5, 1xML, 2xLRM5
4xSL, 3xML, 2xLPL
7xSL, 1xUAC10, 4xML

I regularly reach very good results with that configs (and some others) and i really feel as an executioner on battlefield.

Fast, mobile, surprising, deadly.

Any of those loadouts would get destroyed in a comp match. And the fact you said you dont fear Dires, well even furthers my point.

[Bishop Six]

Writhen, on 15 September 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

Any of those loadouts would get destroyed in a comp match. And the fact you said you dont fear Dires, well even furthers my point.

How do you know?

Do you think i am just playing Single Player?

For me, these loadouts are working fine. Perhaps i just have another play style than you.

In general, after playing a long time, for me are the quantity of weapons or much fire power not the most important factors for playing a good role in your team.

Also i dont build Meta Mechs, but configs i like. normally i am under the best 3 of a match, single playing or group playing doesnt matter.

And i said "i dont fear dires" doesnt mean that i havent respect. But i can kill most of them, like they can kill me and thats fine.

Edited by Bishop Six, 15 September 2015 - 04:22 AM.

[Writhenn]

Bishop Six, on 15 September 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

How do you know?

Do you think i am just playing Single Player?

For me, these loadouts are working fine. Perhaps i just have another play style than you.

In general, after playing a long time, for me are the quantity of weapons or much fire power not the most important factors for playing a good role in your team.

Also i dont build Meta Mechs, but configs i like. normally i am under the best 3 of a match, single playing or group playing doesnt matter.

And i said "i dont fear dires" doesnt mean that i havent respect. But i can kill most of them, like they can kill me and thats fine.

No offense, but all the build you listed have no synergy. If you're going to argue with me that the Executioner is on par with the other assaults in this game, I have no words for you. And no offense, I've never seen you in game.

[Bishop Six]

Writhen, on 15 September 2015 - 04:25 AM, said:

No offense, but all the build you listed have no synergy. If you're going to argue with me that the Executioner is on par with the other assaults in this game, I have no words for you. And no offense, I've never seen you in game.

Ok, everyone has an opinion. Mine is that the Exe is quite a good assault and i have many fun and good results with it

[Writhenn]

Bishop Six, on 15 September 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Ok, everyone has an opinion. Mine is that the Exe is quite a good assault and i have many fun and good results with it

Here's hoping that the player tiers come out soon.

[STEF_]

Bishop Six, on 15 September 2015 - 03:43 AM, said:

My experiences are contrary to yours.

For me the Executioner is a really big badass on battlefield, i dont fear most of the crabs, dires or warhawks.

Fix for u:

1. 95 tons 26 free tons (shaving armor from legs) with 65 kph (71,3 kph) is quite fast, i have good mobility in fight

Meanwhile the jaguar has 29 free tons, run at 89 kph and has far better harpoints location.

Both have weird hitboxes though.

I don't know Bish... I have mastered all 6 HGN in 40 days, fallen in love wtih HGN and also wrote a guide about them, while I manage to elite only one Exe in all those months....

[Skarlock]

Bishop Six, on 15 September 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Ok, everyone has an opinion. Mine is that the Exe is quite a good assault and i have many fun and good results with it

That's true, but you can have fun in a lot of different mechs, even if they are horribly underpowered. The Mist Lynx for example is incredibly fun to jump around in, but it's so under gunned and under cooled it can't contribute much to the actual fight. I don't want to have fun at my teams expense. I want to have fun and know that I'm actually helping out and I can do my part while playing a mech that is quite unlike others.

That being said, there is a world of difference between the potential of the executioner and the higher tier assaults. The entire balance pass is supposed to be addressing the competitive power levels of mechs, not how fun they are. Writhen is giving his feedback for this reason.

[Bishop Six]

Stefka Kerensky, on 15 September 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

Meanwhile the jaguar has 29 free tons, run at 89 kph and has far better harpoints location.

Both have weird hitboxes though.

I don't know Bish... I have mastered all 6 HGN in 40 days, fallen in love wtih HGN and also wrote a guide about them, while I manage to elite only one Exe in all those months....

Sure i am aware of the low weapon tonnage, because of that i focus on smaller weapons for the Exe. And i think everyone have mechs who fit more to the personal style of playing than others. I love Exes MASK and the JJs are ok i'd say.

Its funny because i also tried the highlander and after month i only fulfilled the basics with the first of them and selled it again^^

@Skarlock
Fun means for me also Performance. I just gave a statement that i have fun and good results with that mech and im almost always a valuable part of my team.

Edited by Bishop Six, 15 September 2015 - 04:52 AM.

[STEF_]

Bishop Six, on 15 September 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

I think everyone have mechs who fit more to the personal style of playing than others.

Its funny because i also tried the highlander and after month i only fulfilled the basics with the first of them and selled it again^^

Yep, totally agree about every pilot has his own style and preferences.
That's why I wrote about HGN/EXe: totally different mech, despite only 5tons difference in weight

[Chagatay]

Writhen, on 14 September 2015 - 10:59 PM, said:

How is this even relevant to this post?

I have had great fun and success with Gargles and I don't think he needs a buff. If you want to buff him further....I guess I can't argue. Though I would take Gargles any day over the other 80 ton options.

[Highlighter]

Writhen, on 14 September 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

It puzzles me why the torso range on this thing is the same as a direwolf since it has only about half the available podspace and the engine is so much larger. It should be able to torso twist like no other, it's such a huge engine devoted to it, gimping the torso twist is an unneccesary nerf to a mech that doesn't really boast that much firepower.

I have a suspicion the torso twist range was prenerfed from fear that MASC would be completely OP, which it isn't.

I completely agree that the Executioner should have its strength, that of agility and mobility, magnified by quirks and not nerfed. The machine doesn't have enough spare tonnage or space to mount a standard assault payload. It was designed to be an agile assault 'Mech, so I'd really like to see that reflected in game.

As an aside, the loadout I've gotten to work doesn't rely on D-pods (I don't have any), but uses an A-arm. 4x ER Medium Lasers and a Gauss Rifle. The remaining space is DHS, ammo, and a TC1. I've had great success using that.

[KursedVixen]

Masc in my opinion is nerfed. the shadowcat is suppose to go 130 with masc it only goes 114 and that's with speed tweak.

and the Executiner is suppose to go 86.4 with masc

Masc would likely be used to: Get into a brawl, get out of a brawl ,get away from enemies,poke around a corner, retreat from a poke.

as always the downside of Masc was your legs froze up, well in MWO your legs blow up I think that's a fair tradeoff for using Masc too much so why the nerf on speed?

Edited by KursedVixen, 16 September 2015 - 11:26 AM.

[Blaze32]

KursedVixen, on 16 September 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

as always the downside of Masc was your legs froze up, well in MWO your legs blow up I think that's a fair tradeoff for using Masc too much so why the nerf on speed?

this is because of the speed cap on the servers; if they let it have TT speed fewer mechs would be able to have it (the loyalty wolverine would be close to breaking the limit with 162kph). Right now the max speed is 171ish kph and even that at some times rubber-bands really bad...