70 replies to this topic

[Raggedyman]

Apologies if it's already been answered but does anyone know what changed to let the Marauder and Warhammer be added to the game?

[LordKnightFandragon]

PGI made one look sufficiently different and HG cant say **** about it.

[Thorqemada]

PGI has made its own "Original Design" of the Marauder, their licence grants them the use of the Name and Loadout, so HG can do nothing about it (well, HG can try though...).

Russ speaks in the latest Townhall about it - its a Testbaloon if it works that way.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I think PGI was waiting for Catalyst Games to move forward with their Reseens of HG resembled mechs. Once Catalyst made their move and was willing to challenge HG, I think that was the go-ahead PGI needed to proceed with their own reseen designs.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Raggedyman, on 15 September 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

Apologies if it's already been answered but does anyone know what changed to let the Marauder and Warhammer be added to the game?

PGI decided to stand up to Copyright intimidation....

[Rhaythe]

Yeah, Catalyst pushing to get the Unseen back into the fold had a major hand in this. PGI has at worst an ally in this fight, at best a partner against HG now.

[Otto Cannon]

PGI wouldn't risk being the first to try it, so they waited for another company to challenge HG and then stood behind them going 'Yeah! We're totally standing up to you!'. To be fair it was probably the wisest thing to do though.

[Pariah Devalis]

Right now there is a unique situation in all of HG troll history. Simply, HG is faced with multiple targets for trolling at once - as opposed to every other time with just a single target for them to bully, with both CGL and PGI going forward with what they should legally be allowed to do. Coupled with HG's recent legal (and money) issues, this puts both PGI and CGL in a fantastic position to once and for all shut down HG's legal trolling.

If HG goes after either company for frivolous and unsustainable infringement charges, like they tend to do whenever the MAD, WHM, or any other of the Macross Unseen related designs crop up, the option to simply "out money" the target company is dubious for a pair of reasons - aside from the fact that HG has zero legal claim to any attempt regardless. Firstly, if they attack one company, the other is equally at risk down the line and it is in their best interest to support the target of HG's attack. This makes it essentially a 2 on 1 case, in a case where HG knows damned well it has no case whatsoever. Secondly, if they did a stupid and tried to sue one or both companies, both could easily counter-sue and essentially call HG on their steaming pile of BS - and this countersuit would probably win.

As a result, HG stands to lose, and lose horribly, should they try anything. The odds are strongly in PGI's/CGL's favor if HG starts something, it is unlikely HG could finish what it started by bullying either company with deep pockets to make defense overly expensive to maintain, would lose the case almost assuredly if they cannot out money the defendants, and would lose a tremendous, tremendous amount of money by a countersuit which would in all likelihood succeed given the courts' recent, and very much appreciated, crackdown on patent and copyright trolls, of which HG is notorious for being.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 15 September 2015 - 04:35 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

And then PGI is going to use the Overlords of money made off the Marauder, Warhammer, Rifleman, Stinger, Archer and other Unseen mechs to go kick HG back into the stone age in the next "Battle of the Unseens".

[Raggedyman]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 September 2015 - 04:35 AM, said:

Coupled with HG's recent legal (and money) issues, this puts both PGI and CGL in a fantastic position to once and for all shut down HG's legal trolling.

ooooh, that I wasn't aware of. Got any gossip on that?

[ColdPsyker1]

well put pariah

[Pariah Devalis]

Raggedyman, on 15 September 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

ooooh, that I wasn't aware of. Got any gossip on that?

From what I heard, HG only has two lawyers left in the NA legal department because of fraud. :3 On top of that, HG tried to take Hasbro to court over a toy of theirs. Hasbro didn't back down. Harmony Gold lost bad.

"Harmony Gold U.S.A. Inc.'s lawsuit against Hasbro, Inc. for copyright infringement was dismissed on September 23. The Stipulation for Dismissal of Action is representative of both parties agreeing to dismiss the lawsuit, which is opposed to a judge or court order dismissing the case due to lack of evidence.

The documents also state the lawsuit is dismissed with prejudice, which prevents Harmony Gold U.S.A. from refiling a lawsuit for the same claim against Hasbro. Both parties will pay their own attorneys' fees and costs."

I say they lost bad, even though it was dismissed. After all, they are barred from ever suing hasbro again for that item, so clearly they felt their case was weak. While on paper it kinda looks like a draw, HG definitely lost it, or would have, or they wouldn't have been barred from doing it ever again.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 15 September 2015 - 04:54 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 September 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

From what I heard, HG only has two lawyers left in the NA legal department because of fraud. :3 On top of that, HG tried to take Hasbro to court over a toy of theirs. Hasbro didn't back down. Harmony Gold lost bad.

"Harmony Gold U.S.A. Inc.'s lawsuit against Hasbro, Inc. for copyright infringement was dismissed on September 23. The Stipulation for Dismissal of Action is representative of both parties agreeing to dismiss the lawsuit, which is opposed to a judge or court order dismissing the case due to lack of evidence.

The documents also state the lawsuit is dismissed with prejudice, which prevents Harmony Gold U.S.A. from refiling a lawsuit for the same claim against Hasbro. Both parties will pay their own attorneys' fees and costs."

There is not enough lols, smiley emoticons or anything else to express how funny I find that.

Trolls getting just exactly what they deserve....HG can go fk themselves and it looks like they dun trolled under the wrong bridge and the townsfolk dun sharpened thier torches, lit thier pitchforks and ***** that troll.

[xXBagheeraXx]

MeiSooHaityu, on 15 September 2015 - 04:05 AM, said:

I think PGI was waiting for Catalyst Games to move forward with their Reseens of HG resembled mechs. Once Catalyst made their move and was willing to challenge HG, I think that was the go-ahead PGI needed to proceed with their own reseen designs.

Yep, the reseens of the war-hammer where pretty sweet. Really surprised they did not release it with this pack, unless they are going to drop them separately later. *shurgs* PGI is a business but dont rip at my wallet too hard peeps.

[Apnu]

Raggedyman, on 15 September 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

Apologies if it's already been answered but does anyone know what changed to let the Marauder and Warhammer be added to the game?

Old beardy BT guy here:

HG owns only the image of the mech designs from Macross. Everything else about the Unseen are OK, so long as they aren't those designs. That's the name, weight, weapons, and the rest of the lore. All of it is free to use under the Microsoft IP deal PGI has.

So the only thing holding PGI back is comeing up with a visual design that can withstand Harmony Gold's scrutiny. Since they exist to litigate anyone coming close to Robotech, one has to be careful. Also BT fans love those designs (they are of the best BT has ever seen, thanks Japan, you're awesome!), and fans have shown through the rejection of Project Phoenix (talking about TT here, not MWO), the designer has to find a fine line to invoke the old designs for the fans, but be different enough to defend the probable lawsuit from Harmony Gold.

Russ talked about that specifically at the end of the last Town Hall. PGI thinks their MAD design is defensible in court, and they think they have the funds to muster that defense. Or they're hoping the funds raised by the MAD will allow them to defend it in court.

[LordKnightFandragon]

If I was PGI, id take the Warhammer from the 2009 MW5 video, release that as my Warhammer and make an arm inscription that says "Come at meh Bruh"!

[xXBagheeraXx]

Apnu, on 15 September 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

Old beardy BT guy here:

HG owns only the image of the mech designs from Macross. Everything else about the Unseen are OK, so long as they aren't those designs. That's the name, weight, weapons, and the rest of the lore. All of it is free to use under the Microsoft IP deal PGI has.

So the only thing holding PGI back is comeing up with a visual design that can withstand Harmony Gold's scrutiny. Since they exist to litigate anyone coming close to Robotech, one has to be careful. Also BT fans love those designs (they are of the best BT has ever seen, thanks Japan, you're awesome!), and fans have shown through the rejection of Project Phoenix (talking about TT here, not MWO), the designer has to find a fine line to invoke the old designs for the fans, but be different enough to defend the probable lawsuit from Harmony Gold.

Russ talked about that specifically at the end of the last Town Hall. PGI thinks their MAD design is defensible in court, and they think they have the funds to muster that defense. Or they're hoping the funds raised by the MAD will allow them to defend it in court.

You know what. If they Legit asked for help if Harmony tried to sue and passed a hat

I would put in on that. Despite all the frustrations this game has given me over the years. I would totally chip in. I hope they actually read this and if it actually becomes a freaking issue I'd even make a post about it.

JUST to screw over HG. Id go "shut up and take my lawyer money" Hell make some incentives and toss some mechs myw ay if you win.

[Hans Von Lohman]

Probably this has something to do with it. The board game guys are not taking this lying down and last month (August 2015) they released their upcoming plans to start making newer, better, "Re-seen" artwork.

PGI is just jumping onto that bandwagon.

Also, I think Hairbrained Schemes might also be in on this. They're about to get a gajilion million dollars (via Kickstarter) for a new BattleTech RPG, and they're going to also want the unseen back in play as well. Especially as they're going to share the 3D models for their game from PGI's art.

[RussianWolf]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 September 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

From what I heard, HG only has two lawyers left in the NA legal department because of fraud. :3 On top of that, HG tried to take Hasbro to court over a toy of theirs. Hasbro didn't back down. Harmony Gold lost bad.

"Harmony Gold U.S.A. Inc.'s lawsuit against Hasbro, Inc. for copyright infringement was dismissed on September 23. The Stipulation for Dismissal of Action is representative of both parties agreeing to dismiss the lawsuit, which is opposed to a judge or court order dismissing the case due to lack of evidence.

The documents also state the lawsuit is dismissed with prejudice, which prevents Harmony Gold U.S.A. from refiling a lawsuit for the same claim against Hasbro. Both parties will pay their own attorneys' fees and costs."

I say they lost bad, even though it was dismissed. After all, they are barred from ever suing hasbro again for that item, so clearly they felt their case was weak. While on paper it kinda looks like a draw, HG definitely lost it, or would have, or they wouldn't have been barred from doing it ever again.

Not sure I share your confidence.

Generally, when you file a case, then you ask for a dismissal, you are not allowed to refile the case for the same issue. Otherwise you would see a never ending series where companies/people with money could file a suit, make you spend money on lawyers, then dismiss. Over and Over until you were broke.

HG's case with Hasbro was one that was going to cut both ways regardless of who won. Both are companies that are trying to protect intellectual property from infringement. A precedent set in either direction both **** and hurts each side. I have a feeling that this one was decided based more on the fact that the "right" HG were trying to protect were already diminished by the number of Jetfire clones that have been on the market since the original was pulled from the market when the license expired. They didn't go after all the cheap clone companies, therefore they sort of gave up the fight on it.

I'm not aware of any other clones for this one though. So HG, which still looks to have deep pockets to me...... deeper than PGI's (working in film and real estate, I'd be shocked if they didn't have attorneys on staff), could and may be willing to push the button on this.

I still think HG could make this very painful for PGI (and Catalyst) financially.

We'll have to see what happens.

I did say this in a facebook post though. This may be PGI's way to drop this game without the ire of the playerbase. rRlease the MAD, HG sues, they file bankruptcy and say "it's HG, not us."

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 September 2015 - 04:35 AM, said:

Right now there is a unique situation in all of HG troll history. Simply, HG is faced with multiple targets for trolling at once - as opposed to every other time with just a single target for them to bully, with both CGL and PGI going forward with what they should legally be allowed to do. Coupled with HG's recent legal (and money) issues, this puts both PGI and CGL in a fantastic position to once and for all shut down HG's legal trolling.

If HG goes after either company for frivolous and unsustainable infringement charges, like they tend to do whenever the MAD, WHM, or any other of the Macross Unseen related designs crop up, the option to simply "out money" the target company is dubious for a pair of reasons - aside from the fact that HG has zero legal claim to any attempt regardless. Firstly, if they attack one company, the other is equally at risk down the line and it is in their best interest to support the target of HG's attack. This makes it essentially a 2 on 1 case, in a case where HG knows damned well it has no case whatsoever. Secondly, if they did a stupid and tried to sue one or both companies, both could easily counter-sue and essentially call HG on their steaming pile of BS - and this countersuit would probably win.

As a result, HG stands to lose, and lose horribly, should they try anything. The odds are strongly in PGI's/CGL's favor if HG starts something, it is unlikely HG could finish what it started by bullying either company with deep pockets to make defense overly expensive to maintain, would lose the case almost assuredly if they cannot out money the defendants, and would lose a tremendous, tremendous amount of money by a countersuit which would in all likelihood succeed given the courts' recent, and very much appreciated, crackdown on patent and copyright trolls, of which HG is notorious for being.

also wondering how much their legal funds account got depleted locking horns with Hasbro.

RussianWolf, on 15 September 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

Not sure I share your confidence.

Generally, when you file a case, then you ask for a dismissal, you are not allowed to refile the case for the same issue. Otherwise you would see a never ending series where companies/people with money could file a suit, make you spend money on lawyers, then dismiss. Over and Over until you were broke.

HG's case with Hasbro was one that was going to cut both ways regardless of who won. Both are companies that are trying to protect intellectual property from infringement. A precedent set in either direction both **** and hurts each side. I have a feeling that this one was decided based more on the fact that the "right" HG were trying to protect were already diminished by the number of Jetfire clones that have been on the market since the original was pulled from the market when the license expired. They didn't go after all the cheap clone companies, therefore they sort of gave up the fight on it.

I'm not aware of any other clones for this one though. So HG, which still looks to have deep pockets to me...... deeper than PGI's (working in film and real estate, I'd be shocked if they didn't have attorneys on staff), could and may be willing to push the button on this.

I still think HG could make this very painful for PGI (and Catalyst) financially.

We'll have to see what happens.

I did say this in a facebook post though. This may be PGI's way to drop this game without the ire of the playerbase. rRlease the MAD, HG sues, they file bankruptcy and say "it's HG, not us."

lol...paranoid much?

Again, look up the introduction of the Unseen by CGL, a subsidiary of Topps, which was the catalyst of this.